Action Comics #1 Cover OA...still exists?!? 2 2

[PhilipB2k17]

54 minutes ago, Bronty said:

No...   I don't think logic dictates that at all.   They are only important with hindsight.    If the cover envelopes were chucked when they came back to marvel, for example, the person throwing away the envelope would have drawn no particular distinction in late 62 between the covers to JIM 82 vs 83 vs 84.

Again, its possible.    Its just unlikely at this point.    The average person sitting on these would simply not be able to keep them all, they would be too valuable.    If you lived in a 300k house and owned 9 figures worth of art.. you have to sell some, you just have to.   To protect your position in case of a fire.    To have some cash for your heirs.   To achieve life goals, whatever.

It would take an extraordinary mindset, or an extraordinarily wealthy person, to hang onto it all this time and never say a word.

And, that person would have to be at least 80 years old at this point.    

20 years from now... if they haven't shown up... they aren't out there because anyone owning them would be dead.

Except, maybe they got the Covers back in 1962-3, they sat on the shelf for a few years, during which those particular characters "blew up," in the popular culture and became big sellers. So, they may have gone missing in 1965-1967. Kirby started asking for his art back in the 1960;s. When" I don't know. But maybe when those characters started become super popular (meaning, mid 60's). But, everyone with access to the art knew that too.

As for why (if it still exists) it has no surfaced, maybe it was lost, damaged in a fire, flood, or earthquake? Maybe the person died, and the family didn't realize what it was and tossed it. Maybe the people who have it know it is a super high profile thing, and do not want the scrutiny for whatever reason. maybe they stuck it in a safe deposit box, and developed alzheimers? Who knows?

Maybe it's gone. Maybe it's not. I think some of it is still out there.

Edited April 23, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[PhilipB2k17]

We keep hearing about lost renaissance or Dutch masterpieces re-surfacing after going missing for decades, or even centuries. Those are worth millions. Why would someone "hide" those if they are worth millions?

[zhamlau]

Also not to side track, but one of my friends remembers buying art from Mark Evanier out of the trunk of Marks car back in California. Mark had stacks and stacks of art in there, and was very selective about what pieces he could and could NOT buy. this would have been in the early 70s Back then Kirby wouldn't sign a lot of art, but when my friend brought the page up to Kirby mark said "its ok on this one" or words to the effect. Because he bought it directly from Mark/Jack , he was happy to sign it. Ive never seen anyone else tell a story like that, but to be fair very few people were buying art back in the 60s and  70s like he was and are still around to tell the tales.

[pemart1966]

16 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Except, maybe they got the Covers back in 1962-3, they sat on the shelf for a few years, during which those particular characters "blew up," in the popular culture and became big sellers. So, they may have gone missing in 1965-1967. Kirby started asking for his art back in the 1960;s. When" I don't know. But maybe when those characters started become super popular (meaning, mid 60's). But, everyone with access to the art knew that too.

As for why (if it still exists) it has no surfaced, maybe it was lost, damaged in a fire, flood, or earthquake? Maybe the person died, and the family didn't realize what it was and tossed it. Maybe the people who have it know it is a super high profile thing, and do not want the scrutiny for whatever reason. maybe they stuck it in a safe deposit box, and developed alzheimers? Who knows?

Maybe it's gone. Maybe it's not. I think some of it is still out there.

IF the covers went "missing in 1965-67" under the premise that the characters "blew up" why then didn't the interior art follow the same path?

[PhilipB2k17]

12 minutes ago, Bill C said:

***Hey I need to clarify something- I just realized your post says it quoted me, but my words were deleted out of there. You're responding to the guy who's arguing with everybody (poorly), which I quoted and responded to also.

I just want to distance myself from his words- which are attributed to me in your response.

I'm sure I put my foot in my mouth enough on my own, heh.

The sum total of the rebuttal to my (now very plausible) argument is that I am not aware of the secret insider knowledge and legends of where all these art pieces are in this hobby. So, shut up you young whippersnapper. Yet, nobody is actually pointing out any specifics. Or, I should say, very few specifics. How in the world and I supposed to rebut or address that argument?

The fact that the art has not publicly surfaced is not evidence that it doesn't exist, given the context that has been developed and explained here. Do we know where all the copies of Action Comics #1 are? It's worth hundreds of thousands, or millions. Yet, we don't have an accurate census of it? Why would anyone hide it? I mean, come on. That argument is so silly.

Edited April 23, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[PhilipB2k17]

3 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

IF the covers went "missing in 1965-67" under the premise that the characters "blew up" why then didn't the interior art follow the same path?

A lot of the interior art DID end up missing. AF #15 was missing for decades until it suddenly showed up as a donation to the LOC. As someone pointed out, we still don't know where FF 48-50 are. yet no one seems to doubt that these still exist. Yet, why haven't they surfaced? They are worth 7 figures! Blah, blah, blah. 

[PhilipB2k17]

59 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Someone needs a refresher course on how logic works.

Major Premise: All missing early Marvel silver age art was destroyed.

Minor Premise: The covers to JIM 83, AF 15, TOS 39, FF 1 and Hulk 1 are all missing, early Marvel age art

Conclusion: Therefore, the covers to JIM 83, AF 15, TOS 39, FF 1 and Hulk 1 were destroyed.

This is the syllogism you are arguing. Yet, the premise is falsifiable. Or, at the very least, is unproven.

Edited April 23, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[Bronty]

31 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

A lot of the interior art DID end up missing. AF #15 was missing for decades until it suddenly showed up as a donation to the LOC. As someone pointed out, we still don't know where FF 48-50 are. yet no one seems to doubt that these still exist. Yet, why haven't they surfaced? They are worth 7 figures! Blah, blah, blah. 

99% of the interiors are around.   Sorry if its not quite 100% 

If all the art before and after exists, its a safe bet FF 48 does. 

However, NONE of the covers from 59-63 seem to be around.   NONE.   Before or after the key issues.

 

[Bronty]

28 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Someone needs a refresher course on how logic works.

 

SOMEONE sure does   

[PhilipB2k17]

10 minutes ago, Bronty said:

99% of the interiors are around.   Sorry if its not quite 100% 

If all the art before and after exists, its a safe bet FF 48 does. 

However, NONE of the covers from 59-63 seem to be around.   NONE.   Before or after the key issues.

 

Per Jim Shooter: “Danny Crespi told me that covers returned from the printer to the bullpen back in the 1960's and early 1970's were routinely sold to some guy, a fan, who wanted them. He'd pay a dollar or two per cover.”

http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/mystery-of-missing-box-of-marve.html/#comment-3852

 

[PhilipB2k17]

11 minutes ago, Bronty said:

SOMEONE sure does   

Yep. And it's not me.

[vodou]

5 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Per Jim Shooter: “Danny Crespi told me that covers returned from the printer to the bullpen back in the 1960's and early 1970's were routinely sold to some guy, a fan, who wanted them. He'd pay a dollar or two per cover.”

http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/mystery-of-missing-box-of-marve.html/#comment-3852

 

Hearsay. Show me Danny Crespi on the record. And then show me who received "a dollar or two per cover" (on the record, please, admitting to theft and selling stolen goods) and also "some guy, a fan" (on the record, please, admitting to buying stolen goods). Then I'll lean more in your direction. Otherwise, Shooter as a source of...hearsay...

[Bronty]

 I can't take it anymore  this is fruitless.

[vodou]

Just now, Bronty said:

 I can't take it anymore  this is fruitless.

"I'm rubber, you're glue; whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you" is a school-ground retort used by children to suggest that one's insults are being ignored by the intended recipient of the insult and counter that the insult rather refers to the insulter.Jun 12, 2017

1139: Rubber and Glue - explain xkcd

https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1139:_Rubber_and_Glue

 

[PhilipB2k17]

6 minutes ago, vodou said:

Hearsay. Show me Danny Crespi on the record. And then show me who received "a dollar or two per cover" (on the record, please, admitting to theft and selling stolen goods) and also "some guy, a fan" (on the record, please, admitting to buying stolen goods). Then I'll lean more in your direction. Otherwise, Shooter as a source of...hearsay...

This isn’t a court of law. Shooter would be in a position to have that conversation with Crespi. And Crespi was assistant production manager at Marvel starting in 1969. 

So Crespi might have knowledge of this practice. 

It seems credible. What’s you’re evidence this conversation never happened? Why would Shooter invent it? 

[dem1138]

1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

The sum total of the rebuttal to my (now very plausible) argument is that I am not aware of the secret insider knowledge and legends of where all these art pieces are in this hobby. So, shut up you young whippersnapper. Yet, nobody is actually pointing out any specifics. Or, I should say, very few specifics. How in the world and I supposed to rebut or address that argument?

None of us started out with any knowledge either.  Do what we all did - network, go to cons, ask questions, meet people, ask to come visit them and see their collection, email people directly, organize dinners at cons or among local collectors, etc.  Anyone with any knowledge, as in anything in life, put in a tremendous amount of time and energy into seeking that knowledge.  You certainly seem to have the passion that those before you had.  But a lot of the key people are very private and would never post on a forum and would not want certain information shared publicly either.  But I can tell you that asking those people in person will get you far more answers than on this forum ever will.  People on here will always share a story or two or try to correct the record for posterity but no one's going to volunteer all of the answers you seek.  I spent a few years meeting fellow collectors and visiting people's houses with a passion, and in the end, I still don't have all of the answers or close to them.  But I had a tremendous amount of fun on the journey and met some amazingly unique people and saw some unbelievable art and heard some incredible stories.  I wish you the best on your journey as well!

[PhilipB2k17]

34 minutes ago, dem1138 said:

None of us started out with any knowledge either.  Do what we all did - network, go to cons, ask questions, meet people, ask to come visit them and see their collection, email people directly, organize dinners at cons or among local collectors, etc.  Anyone with any knowledge, as in anything in life, put in a tremendous amount of time and energy into seeking that knowledge.  You certainly seem to have the passion that those before you had.  But a lot of the key people are very private and would never post on a forum and would not want certain information shared publicly either.  But I can tell you that asking those people in person will get you far more answers than on this forum ever will.  People on here will always share a story or two or try to correct the record for posterity but no one's going to volunteer all of the answers you seek.  I spent a few years meeting fellow collectors and visiting people's houses with a passion, and in the end, I still don't have all of the answers or close to them.  But I had a tremendous amount of fun on the journey and met some amazingly unique people and saw some unbelievable art and heard some incredible stories.  I wish you the best on your journey as well!

http://originalcomicartlocator.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-real-story-how-original-art-to-x.html

From an interview with Glen Brunswick:

 

"BECHARA [Maalouf]: One day in the mid 80's, Brad [Savage] was in the local comic shop he frequented when two young men entered the store with a bundle of comic art to sell the owner.  Brad was stunned as the art turned out to be originals by Steve Ditko.  The actual original Marvel art pages from complete stories to Amazing Spider-Man unfolded before his eyes--ASM issue 4 with Sandman, the third issue with the first appearance of Doc Ock, issue 2 featuring the Vulture and finally the complete original art to the historic Amazing Spider-Man number 1.The two men offered the whole lot, four issues of originals, to the shop keeper for $2000.  Brad couldn't believe it--the shop keeper either couldn't afford it or didn't want to buy the art but Brad absolutely did.  Between what he had in his pocket and a loan from the shop keeper he was able to scrape together $700.  Brad offered to give the men the $700 as a down payment but they wouldn't take it.  They needed the full $2000.  Brad desperately tried to buy just one of the stories, the ASM 1, for the $700 but they wouldn't take that either.  However, they were willing to meet Brad back at the comic shop the next day and do the deal if Brad had all the money.  Brad figured he would never see the men again.

 

The next day Brad was surprised to find the men back at the shop just as they had agreed.  Brad was ready with the cash.  Unfortunately, the men explained that they had found a guy to give them $2000 for the ASM 1 story alone, and they sold the book and the other Spidey stories to that same guy as well.

 

However, they did have some good news for Brad.  They had with them additional art that included the complete stories to X-Men 5, 2 and the complete art boards to the first appearance of the X-Men--issue 1--all by Jack Kirby.  Brad asked them how they were able to get all this art.  The young men explained that it all was very legit.  They promised the books weren't stolen--they just couldn't talk about it.

Brad wasn't about to argue--he was able to buy the complete X-men 1 story for $400, and the other original X-books as well for the paltry sum of $200 a piece."

*******************

Just curious, but have any of the ASM #1 pages surfaced since then? If not, why? They're worth millions! Or maybe the person who bought them knows they were stolen, and doesn't want to deal with the headache.

Edited April 23, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[vodou]

Is that meant to be a counterpoint to dem1138's post? It's not. You proved his point. That's Bechara telling Glen a story he heard from Brad. It's not Brad telling anybody anything directly, and certainly not posting it himself on the internet for dissection and discussion. Get it?

[pemart1966]

1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

A lot of the interior art DID end up missing. AF #15 was missing for decades until it suddenly showed up as a donation to the LOC. As someone pointed out, we still don't know where FF 48-50 are. yet no one seems to doubt that these still exist. Yet, why haven't they surfaced? They are worth 7 figures! Blah, blah, blah. 

Yes, some art was not there at the time of inventory but most of the interior art is accounted for - not so for the covers...

[PhilipB2k17]

1 minute ago, vodou said:

Is that meant to be a counterpoint to dem1138's post? It's not. You proved his point. That's Bechara telling Glen a story he heard from Brad. It's not Brad telling anybody anything directly, and certainly not posting it himself on the internet for dissection and discussion. Get it?

What it shows is that tons of early Marvel art was stolen, and a lot of it is hidden away in black hole collections.