How CGC and grading companies revolutionized the comic book hobby. 0

[RockMyAmadeus]

In case anyone reading this wonders why CGC and other grading companies are not only important, but vitally necessary to the comics collecting hobby, here's a great example I thought I'd share with you all:

"<<AUTO REPLY>>

Ha! Ya gotta love it! Comic Geekdom at it's finest! Kudos. I see your point and I concur. As a professional musician who has toured the planet, I find it unsettling that terminal newsprint is given greater scrutiny than the flaws of the world. "

I got that answer from an eBay seller called "pop*culture*artifacts" when I wrote to them and said the "NM" Atom #17 wasn't quite as nice as he'd claimed. 

His answer...clearly meant to be a "stock" answer to all those "comic geeks" out there who are "concerned about condition" is nothing but an expression of contempt.

"Hey, nerd, there are far worse problems in the world than the condition of your precious comic."

Are there...?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a wackjob who thinks comics, in and of themselves, are all that high on the important in life scale. They're not. 

But what about principles...?

Isn't overstating the condition of an item you sell...and thus getting more money for it than you fairly deserve...just another form of stealing, of theft?

Of course it is. And isn't stealing one of the main "flaws" in the world?

You bet.

After all...this seller claimed the book was in "SPECTACULAR NEAR MINT CONDITION FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION." (His expression, not mine.)

And the book is certainly decent. It's probably an 8.0 to 9.0 as is. But "SPECTACULAR NEAR MINT"...? Not quite. And if I'm paying over 400 times cover price...I should think that earns me the right to get what is offered, no...? 

For those of you who weren't buying in the bad old days, things were so, so much worse before CGC. For all the complaining about CGC...and they need to have their feet held to the fire, too, so they stay honest...things are ten thousand times better than they were before. In fact, without CGC, it's certainly possible the hobby would have completely died, as it almost did in the late 90's. There would be no $500,000 X-Men #1s, no $3,000,000 Action #1s, no $15,000 New Mutants #98s. The hobby would have stagnated, limped along as it was, maybe even collapsed entirely, because so very, very few could be trusted. There are people...to this day, in 2018...that STILL haven't recovered the value of the "high grade" AF #15s they bought as unrestored in the mid to late 90's, that have color touch, or slight trimming, or other forms of restoration. And that's despite the massive runup in the market since 2008. 

If you wanted an accurately graded, premium quality book, you either had to offer literally ridiculous amounts of cash for one, or just completely luck out.

Back then...your choice really was to put up or shut up. Retailers controlled the market, and if you wanted your fix, you had to suck it up. For most of the time before CGC, there was no internet, so your local store...or expensive conventions...were your only choice. And not to say there wasn't choice...there was, and prices were a LOT cheaper than they are today. But the choices today are so far above and beyond what they were back then, it's really a whole different world. Now, you can scour eBay, Heritage, Comiclink, and the like, and get beautiful, premium quality books...and know that, 999 times out of 1,000, the book in the slab is not going to be a 7.5 masquerading as a 9.6, and you won't have to deal with smug, condescending sellers who tell you there are "more important things in life" while they gladly steal your money.

I am soooooo very thankful that I discovered pressing. That has been a lifesaver for me. In the past, I'd simply get angry and frustrated at these people stealing from collectors by lying about the condition of their items. Now, however, I can fix a lot of that, so it takes a lot of the sting out of it. The Atom #17 that "pop*culture*artifacts" sent me is fixable. I will do well with it, I think. It will eventually be graded, and hopefully will grade out to what the seller had advertised it as in the first place...but not without substantial effort put into it first.

Even still...I still fear leaving neutral (which is really a weak negative) or actual negative feedback. After all....there are people within this very CGC community...who understand perfectly well the value difference between conditions...who have turned on those of us who are not only seeking premium quality...but are willing to put our money where our mouths are, by actually paying for that premium quality. We're labeled "ultra picky" or "unpleasable" or worse, a fraud ourselves, who "extort" partial refunds from sellers, and then "crow about it" to others. We get harassed by sellers who either don't know what they're doing, or know precisely what they're doing, and the eBay feedback system is rendered useless by those who call in to have negative feedback removed. There are a TON of eBay sellers out there who have feedback profiles that are complete lies. And, of course, eBay itself will threaten buyers, not understanding the reality of the collectibles market, for "abusing the return system" (which, no doubt, does occur.)

And worse, there's retaliation, by sellers who were angered by honest feedback and use shill accounts to go after your own sales. So, most of the time, you end up saying nothing, out of very real fear.

And, lest I be accused elsewise, this does not come without some serious self-examination. "AM I being unreasonable? Am I grading these too harshly...? Am I being fair to this seller?" If I'm being honest, with myself and everyone else, I have to ask myself these questions. And, on occasion, that's been true, and I've had to deal with that. But, on the whole, the reason why CGC graded books in ultra high grade sell for the prices they do is because that's what people are willing to pay. They are WILLING to pay the $500, or $5,000, or $50,000 price for a $500, $5,000, or $50,000 QUALITY example. But they're not willing...and neither should they be....to pay $500 for a $50 quality copy, or $5,000 for a $100 quality copy.

I'm happy...thrilled...to pay you a 9.8 premium for a 9.8 quality book. I am NOT happy, nor should I be expected, to pay a 9.8 price for an 8.5 or 9.0 quality book. But the attitude of many, including some in the CGC community, is "shut up and take it. Don't create problems for us, or we'll create problems for YOU, capice...?" 

And that's exactly why CGC exists.

So stand strong, high grade enthusiasts. Hold sellers to the fire. If you pay a premium, demand a premium item. Examine yourself. Learn everything you can. And don't be afraid to say "no, I'm not going to accept your inferior quality item at an inflated price, thanks."

And be very, very grateful that we live in a world in which CGC exists.

Edited April 22, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus
Today's Superman Secret Code: RT3-627Y

[Get Marwood & I]

Well said, well considered, well put. Thanks for taking the time to do it. My view is similar - CGC bring far, far more positives than negatives to the hobby and have without doubt energised it. There are few things in life which are wholly good or without flaws. I personally dislike the wide monetary distinctions between the very top grades that have been created, intentionally or otherwise. Given that most agree grading is subjective, to place a massive premium on, say, a 9.9 over a 9.8 doesn't feel right to me given that on any given day, two graders may disagree on which is which.

But again, the positives far outweigh these kinds of 'top end' issues. People are a mixed bag, some honest, some not. Some are unintentionally dishonest.  Etc. When I sold my raw collection on ebay I undergraded every single book as I couldn't stand the thought that I'd be accused of ripping someone off. I would get feedback like "advertises VFN and sends NM". I rarely had a problem as a result, but probably left a fortune on the table. What gets you down sometimes is seeing sellers with no idea how to grade / package comics but with 100% glowing feedback. So I agree again Rock, maybe we should be more demanding of sellers who don't deliver.

 

[Mercury Man]

I certainly recognize, and feel there was a need for a 3rd party service, especially buying online.  I think this is great for high dollar, high profile books.  As a buyer, comics values are based on condition, which immediately affect the dollar you spend.  No different than a car. Rarely do you buy a car straight from internet pictures and descriptions, but I know someone who did. 

What I don't agree with, is everybody sending just about anything to CGC.  Does your 5.0 random bronze age Fantastic Four need to be encapsulated?  Your variant, that you over-speculated on, which will wind up being cover price in a few months in your LCS box worth it?  Stop clogging up the pipeline. 

12 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Ha! Ya gotta love it! Comic Geekdom at it's finest! Kudos. I see your point and I concur. As a professional musician who has toured the planet, I find it unsettling that terminal newsprint is given greater scrutiny than the flaws of the world. "

BTW, spare us your 'pain of the world' speech Bono.  Put it in a song, and get over yourself. 

[SteppinRazor]

I don't think CGC solves the problem it's supposed to, the one RMA is extolling, but it is a stabilizing force for online purchasing.

[Phantalien]

2 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

I don't think CGC solves the problem it's supposed to, the one RMA is extolling, but it is a stabilizing force for online purchasing.

I agree.   If there is a standard for grading then there should be guidelines and criteria to follow.  They should be known for the whole hobby to use and enjoy but also have a reigning body who would be known as professionals who can professionally grade based on those guideline.   

 

While I think the seller should have responded better it seems like you were expecting a book that would come back as a certain grade if you were to send it in.  So why not just get the book in the grade you wanted?   IF you do not want to go that route, then you won an auction using everything you know from description, images, and everything in between.   You agreed to bid and willing to buy it for the price you were offering and you won.   I don't think that the seller did anything wrong and was not stealing from you.   

Just the fact that the seller said, "SPECTACULAR NEAR MINT CONDITION FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION." automatically makes me think it was not in NM condition.    There has never been a spectacular near mint from a grading service, nor would I have ever found it looking in Overstreet or *gulp dare I mention it* Wizard magazine.

Take it as a lesson, maybe next time ask more questions or get more pictures.   

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, SteppinRazor said:

I don't think CGC solves the problem it's supposed to, the one RMA is extolling

What, in your opinion, is that problem?

[blazingbob]

There there is no formal grading training.

Does CGC solve that problem?  All it does is add to it since more and more collectors can't grade.

But then again from a business model that forces more and more buyers and sellers to buy/sell graded books.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

49 minutes ago, Phantalien said:

I agree.   If there is a standard for grading then there should be guidelines and criteria to follow.  They should be known for the whole hobby to use and enjoy but also have a reigning body who would be known as professionals who can professionally grade based on those guideline.   

 

While I think the seller should have responded better it seems like you were expecting a book that would come back as a certain grade if you were to send it in.  So why not just get the book in the grade you wanted?   IF you do not want to go that route, then you won an auction using everything you know from description, images, and everything in between.   You agreed to bid and willing to buy it for the price you were offering and you won.   I don't think that the seller did anything wrong and was not stealing from you.   

Just the fact that the seller said, "SPECTACULAR NEAR MINT CONDITION FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION." automatically makes me think it was not in NM condition.    There has never been a spectacular near mint from a grading service, nor would I have ever found it looking in Overstreet or *gulp dare I mention it* Wizard magazine.

Take it as a lesson, maybe next time ask more questions or get more pictures.   

I have heard many, many people express the same kinds of sentiments you're expressing here, for nearly the entire 30 years I've been in comics. And, to every one, I said the same as I say to you here: if you tolerate people taking advantage of you, they will never stop taking advantage of you.

Let me say it again, as clearly as I can: when someone overstates the condition of something they're selling, no matter what it is, they're going to get more money for the item than they would have if they had honestly assessed its condition. That is, in effect, theft. That seems pretty straightforward to me, does it not to you?

Whether the guy was being hyperbolic or not is not the point, and doesn't negate a seller's responsibility to provide what was offered. Whether someone says:

"NM book."

Or...

"OMGWTFBBQ, THIS IS THE MINTIEST MOST BEAUTIFUL NM BOOK YOU EVER DONE SAW IN YOUR WHOLE LIFE, AND THE LIVES OF YOUR PAPPY AND MEMAW, TOO! NO ONE COULD EVER PROVIDE YOU WITH A NEAR MINTIER COPY TO MATCH THE NEAR MINTIEST-NESS OF THIS ONE! BUY BUY BUYYY!!!!!"

...BOTH sellers are obligated...not merely encouraged, but obligated legally...to deliver what was offered, in the condition in which it was offered.

This isn't a case of naivete at work, here, nor am I complaining about this particular seller and his particular book. I'm using this instance as an illustration of a far-reaching problem, that has been greatly, incredibly mitigated by CGC and third party grading services in general. Not solved. Of course not. But light years beyond the bad old days. Light years. 

.To your other points, "more pictures" don't generally solve the problem, as the various grading contests throughout the year on this board demonstrate. Pictures don't tell the whole story, and pictures usually don't show the differences between, say, a "NM" copy and a "VF/NM" copy. The problem is that you can't see what you don't know is there, and if you don't know it's there, you obviously cannot ask about it. 

Plus...and this is a real factor at work, here, that can't be lightly dismissed or discarded...sellers, most of the time, won't provide additional pictures, unless you are very specific about what you want. And you certainly can't bother sellers with overzealous requests for pics.

No, it is impossible to correctly grade most books by pictures, no matter how many pictures you have. You must have the book in hand to do that.

Finally:

49 minutes ago, Phantalien said:

I agree.   If there is a standard for grading then there should be guidelines and criteria to follow.  They should be known for the whole hobby to use and enjoy but also have a reigning body who would be known as professionals who can professionally grade based on those guideline. 

I'm not sure what you mean by a "reigning body", but there ARE guidelines and criteria to follow: the Overstreet Grading Guides. That said, however, the reason there are no published "standards and criteria" from the legitimate grading companies is because grading is subjective. That's not a catch-all excuse for sloppy grading, as with most sellers who use that phrase on eBay. No, that means, to the grading companies, that while they are educated opinions, they are still just opinions, and everyone who has a likewise educated opinion is perfectly welcome to disagree with them. 

Every single book is unique. Really. Every one. Every single one has some sort of characteristic that is not present on any other copy of that, or any other, comic...even the Gem Mint 10 IDW books. So, each book has to be handled on its own merits. And, like it or not, different flaws are viewed differently by different people.

I've disagreed with CGC plenty of times...and that's perfectly ok. The beauty of third party grading is not perfection...that's impossible where humans are concerned...the beauty, the magic of third party grading is mitigation. That is, if CGC says a book is a NM/M copy, 999 times out of 1,000 if someone cracks that book out, they're NOT going to discover a bunch of thumb dents that they just "happened" to miss, or a NCB crease, or a cut coupon, or a 5 inch bend that isn't visible in pictures...you get the idea. 

With traditional raw sales online, unless you're dealing with, say, a comics4less, or a J&S Comics then 5 times out of 10...yes, I mean that number, quite seriously...you're going to get all sorts of garbage advertised as "MINT CONDITION!" or even "excellent condition, can't see any flaws"...because it's human nature to overstate the condition and/or value of things we sell, and to understate the condition and/or value of things we buy. 

But not only has CGC and other legitimate grading companies directly improved matters for those who deal in their products, but they have indirectly helped, too, by providing a measure which raw sellers...if they want to stay in the business...must adhere to, also. It doesn't matter if the standards and criteria aren't public knowledge...the fact is, CGC is consistent enough to provide a benchmark against which others must perform, or they will tend to be marginalized over time.

In other words...third party grading has raised everyone's game. And that is only good.

Just so I'm clear, this isn't a paid CGC advertisement. God knows, I have my issues with CGC, because there is always room for improvement. It's not about CGC, per se, but rather the general idea of third party grading that I'm discussing here. Third party grading, as it was for coins, and cards, has been a great boon to the comics collecting hobby, and for that, I am very, very grateful.

Edited April 22, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus
Dang it. Thought I'd make it out alive this time. Curses!

[spreads]

Great post.

I would have followed-up with, while you were not accurately (intentionally or not) representing this item for sale, how many flaws of the world have you solved?  What a person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

By the way, Phantalien...this seller knows exactly what he is doing. You know how I know? Because he had that canned, snide, snarky, and most telling, defensive response at the ready for anyone who dared challenge him about it. If he was honest, he would have reacted differently. He doesn't care, so he's purposely "sloppy" with his grading, because it results in him getting more $$. This isn't a mystery, after all. Does anyone believe that this seller makes such "mistakes" in the other direction...? I can guarantee you, that guy has never sold an undergraded book in his life.

As to your contention that it "it seems like you were expecting a book that would come back as a certain grade if you were to send it in", that is incorrect. I was expecting a NM book, as advertised. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Edited April 22, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[Bomber-Bob]

I believe it was the combination of the internet arriving and the existence of CGC. The internet suddenly made 'scarce' comics available in droves. Collectors felt more comfortable buying CGC graded books off the internet, especially the high graded expensive ones. Before CGC, I tried to do most of my bigger purchases in person at conventions. If you found a dealer that graded to your liking you attached yourself to them, signed up for their catalog, got their E-Mail, etc. The Comic Buyers Guide was a good resource to find books and many big name dealers advertised there. I think the hobby would have been fine without CGC and definitely a less expensive hobby. Sure, you would get 'stuck' with a Restored book occasionally but it wasn't frowned upon back then like it is now. I'm a big fan of CGC but I don't think the hobby would fall apart without them.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I believe it was the combination of the internet arriving and the existence of CGC. The internet suddenly made 'scarce' comics available in droves. Collectors felt more comfortable buying CGC graded books off the internet, especially the high graded expensive ones. Before CGC, I tried to do most of my bigger purchases in person at conventions. If you found a dealer that graded to your liking you attached yourself to them, signed up for their catalog, got their E-Mail, etc. The Comic Buyers Guide was a good resource to find books and many big name dealers advertised there. I think the hobby would have been fine without CGC and definitely a less expensive hobby. Sure, you would get 'stuck' with a Restored book occasionally but it wasn't frowned upon back then like it is now. I'm a big fan of CGC but I don't think the hobby would fall apart without them.

I don't think so, either, but that's not the contention I made. The contention I made is that the hobby might not have survived in the condition it was in when third party grading made its appearance. 

Remember...the internet DID exist in 1999-2001, and those were the worst years ever recorded in the new comics industry. And, while there's no way to quantify how the back issue market did during those years, those of us who were around...you, me, many others...remember how things had gotten. I bought a first print TMNT #1 for $66 shipped in the spring of 1999. New England Comics sold a VG FF #1 for $800 and change in 2001 on eBay, and a CGC 4.5 AF #15 for $2300 and change. Overstreet had to completely slash prices on everything below "NM" between his 1997 and 1998 guides.

Granted....absolutely granted...there are all sorts of factors that affect all of that, but there is no doubt about it: the comic book collecting hobby was in the doldrums in those years, and prices reflected it. And certainly, other hobbies have died completely...when was the last time you heard anyone talking about their stamp collections? 

And granted, as I mentioned, there were conventions that people could go to to see books for themselves...but that still didn't protect people from the unscrupulous. Third party grading doesn't eliminate that risk...but it greatly mitigates it. There were just as many dealers who overgraded...AND overpriced...at conventions, too. Don't get me wrong...there is much to be said about paying for what you get...that is, paying MORE for something, but being assured it's in the condition you want. But many, many, many of those convention dealers were still operating with an early 90's mindset, and you saw many, many books priced at those early 90's madness (mainly because they'd overpaid themselves to get it), so your choices were to wildly overpay in person....but be assured you'd get what you wanted!....or take a gamble with the unknown on the internet, but pay a lot less. And even the good dealers didn't have everything you wanted.

Hardly stellar options, either of them. The dealers who were both fairly priced AND accurately graded were few and far between.

Third party grading mitigated a lot of that.

[blazingbob]

There are a lot of ebbs and flows to why graded books come to the market

1).  It was done before so there was already a business model.  Graded coins and Graded cards.

2).  Mail order suffered a high amount of returns.  

3).  Auction houses before Heritage sold most comics in huge lots.  However they did pioneer "grading by committee" since most lots had 3-4 graders who graded it.  Sotheby's lots were graded by Payette,  Dan Greenhaugh of Showcase,  Borock might have done some.  I am not sure who else graded the lots.  Auction houses did not allow returns so in those days you traveled before the auction and graded the lots yourself.  Enter CGC graded books and all that preliminary what is the grade work goes away.  Now it is replaced by the guys looking for upgrades.

4).  Undisclosed restoration.  All you have to look at is the census on some keys and see how many restored copies have been graded.  Imagine that probably 75% and I may be low were being sold as unrestored.  Honesty is not always the first adjective coming out of buyers mouths when describing the selling community.

5).  I'll say again,  no formal grading training.  If a buyer is honest that they can't grade which I've heard more then once they are at the mercy of the guy in front of them selling the book.  How else would they know to challenge the seller who they assume knows what he is doing?  Which for me is laying a lot of trust into that sellers lap.  And having traveled to a lot of shows and bought and graded a lot of books I'm not exactly sure that trust is deserved.  

6).  Books would not sell for a million dollars based on one sellers "opinion".  The idea of impartial grading by committee has created an acceptance in the hobby that is rewarded by buyers stepping up and paying more for books then they would have before.  Having GPA trackable sales has also helped give a stock market feel to the comic market.  CGC registry sets have created the EGO driven need to have the best out there.  

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

All great stuff, Bob. Absolutely true. The best defense is education. 

[chrisco37]

I agree.   It was pretty much necessary in the online selling age.

I think the most important aspect is that it provided “everyone” with a pretty good baseline of what constitutes a grade of “X”.  Of course there are other variables in the mix (eye appeal, gloss, etc) that may make 2 books of the same grade “different”.  And, of course, two people may grade the same book a little differently.  But, in general, the grades will be close (maybe one person calls a book an 8.0 and the other an 8.5).

I don’t necessarily “like” the crazy premiums associated with say a 9.8 over a 9.6, but that’s another discussion all together (and a “problem” created by collectors willing to pay that price difference).

Good post RMA.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

As previously stated, I am a big fan of CGC and yes, they stabilized the hobby. However, after many years I have come to realize that they also took a lot of fun out of the hobby. For a while everything I bought had to be slabbed. Now, I can comfortably buy raw again. I like high grade books, I like nice page quality, I like a nice stress free spine, I like the book to have nice eye appeal. If it's got a little wrinkle or small corner crease, it doesn't bother me. However, give this same raw book that makes me happy to CGC and they will often hammer it.  I can buy my raws for so much less money and not worry about every little flaw. In summary, CGC has given me OCD . 

[speedcake]

Is it really a problem that people get tons of books graded that shouldn't be? Sure it slows things down a bit, but it also helps CGC stay in business, it possibly makes those people happy, creates bargains for other people looking for cheap cgc books. Ain't nobody's business which books others choose to get graded.

 

As long as those people don't complain to everyone who will listen about how the book they could have sworn would get a 9.8 came back a 6.5 because they didn't know what a crease means.

[alexgross.com]

and also thank goodness for pgx for all the laughs they’ve given us. i cant beleive that CL still allows them in their auctions. 

[wombat]

52 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

As previously stated, I am a big fan of CGC and yes, they stabilized the hobby. However, after many years I have come to realize that they also took a lot of fun out of the hobby. For a while everything I bought had to be slabbed. Now, I can comfortably buy raw again. I like high grade books, I like nice page quality, I like a nice stress free spine, I like the book to have nice eye appeal. If it's got a little wrinkle or small corner crease, it doesn't bother me. However, give this same raw book that makes me happy to CGC and they will often hammer it.  I can buy my raws for so much less money and not worry about every little flaw. In summary, CGC has given me OCD . 

Good post. Probably the thing I like best about CGC is that I know I can (or at least should be able to) get raw books cheaper. I'm not super picky so this works out for me. Of course I still buy CGC books and have quite a few, but these days I mostly limit that to signature series and good deals for the most part. 

[SteppinRazor]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

What, in your opinion, is that problem?

 The problem it's supposed to solve is objective measurement of condition, represented by numerical scale.

It provdes stability to the market despite not doing that by providing solutions to other problems, some of which @blazingbob posted.  The existence of 3rd party grading also sets price floors.