How CGC and grading companies revolutionized the comic book hobby. 0

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, kav said:

Why do people always gnash their teeth then say I'M NOT ANGRY!!!!!!!!!

Please don't start. 

There are literally thousands of other threads you can post in; there's zero need for you to try and provoke conflict here.

Thank you.

Edited April 23, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[catman76]

To me they didn't revolutionize anything, just ruined comics more by making people even more obsessed with the stupid made up grade number and locking comics up in slabs, defeating the entire purpose of a comic, which is to be read and enjoyed. Who cares what "grade" it's in.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, catman76 said:

To me they didn't revolutionize anything, just ruined comics more by making people even more obsessed with the stupid made up grade number and locking comics up in slabs, defeating the entire purpose of a comic, which is to be read and enjoyed. Who cares what "grade" it's in.

You....do know that this is the CGC board, right...?

[Phantalien]

7 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No. In fact, the two scenarios have nothing to do with each other. The comparison would be if you, the buyer, lied about the conditions of the comics to get a better price. 

With all due respect, it's not very difficult to understand. The seller offered an item in a specific condition. Bids were based on that material fact, and would not have been nearly as high had the seller not misrepresented the condition of his book for sale.

I know this, because other copies of this book, that are NOT described as "NM", have sold for substantially less money...like this one, for example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Atom-17-Fine-Cond/142757063391?hash=item213cfbeadf:g:rr4AAOSwafta0XM-

($7.63)

In fact, knowing how Peter (comics4less) grades, I suspect that the copy I bought for $48 plus S&H is not too much better, as it stands now, than the one that he sold for $7.63 plus S&H.

Or this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Atom-17-Fine-Cond-slight-water-damage-/142662224503?hash=item213754ca77%3Ag%3AzPwAAOSwLwBaYsME&nma=true&si=h27Eu9oQBRIusaPpA0bWMZnhXas%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

($7.00)

It's all about representation. Peter represents his copies as "Fine" condition, and "Fine+" condition...and I guarantee you, that Fine+ copy, without that water stain on the back, is nicer than the "pop*culture*artifacts" copy. 

There's really no debate, here. Buying "below value" is simply business. ALL businesses that resell items MUST purchase them for "below value", or they aren't in business. So long as the buyer does not MISrepresent the items he's trying to purchase, the price paid has nothing to do with anything. But, in the case of "pop*culture*artifacts", he MISrepresented his item, and got far, far more for it than he was entitled to. That's the key, here.

If that was your takeaway, then you have completely and totally missed the point of the thread. Using AN EXAMPLE TO ILLUSTRATE A BROADER SUBJECT does not therefore make this an "eBay complaint thread." 

Read THE REST of what I wrote...after the example that I used to preface it...and you'll find a lot more that you've missed.

One more time, with all the respect that may be due to you: this was MERELY AN EXAMPLE to ILLUSTRATE A BROADER POINT. The specific example IS NOT THE POINT. Get OFF the example, and focus on the BROADER POINT. Do NOT mistake my willingness to get into the weeds with you about the details of the transaction as focusing on that transaction. The specific transaction is meaningless. Substitute any of a million other transactions; it's not about that.

It's clear to me that you glossed over the initial post and didn't really read it, because I already discussed what I intend to do with the example book. For the life of me, I will never, ever understand why people get involved in discussions, when they won't even read everything that someone else is saying.

 

I think that the main thing for me is that despite this being a thread about why we need the CGC you spent too much effort talking about a real ebay seller with a specific auction in mind and a response from that seller.

It's clear to me that you assume too much about what I know based on what I choose to discuss as I like to play devils advocate on point of view, and, just because I give another point of view doesn't mean I don't understand, agree, or sympathize.  IT is just my focus of discussion.

[comicwiz]

Nobody cares. And I don't say this in a patronizing manner. I say this with a great deal of dejection and resignation.

The community culture we used to enjoy, even if that was a period of more conflict and disagreement, was the best this hobby ever had.

We had a self-regulating function on these boards, which dealt with everything from steering people in the right direction on how to disclose, right through to lighting the fire under the feet of people who conducted themselves in a rogue manner.

The move to Facebook changed everything. This may not be something newer members would remember, but there was a time on these boards where it was an established standard to provide good quality scans of the front and back cover if you were selling something of significant value. Now, you'd be lucky to get scans of any comics, and when you do ask for close-ups pics to better assess condition, the seller contacts you to tell you the book is gone.

Nobody cares about doing the honourable thing. They hold auctions via PM, pit buyers against one another. They don't need accurate descriptions or good quality scans because people are not only scooping up their stuff in a hurry, they are consistently overpaying for it.

If it's someone known to the groups, who happens to have the same item listed on eBay at the same time it's listed in the FB groups (something that wasn't allowed on these forums), and their attitude is "don't like it, or how I described it, move on", it isn't uncommon to see a backlash from their supporters, and even when a good number of people are supportive of the idea of reporting it, eBay does nothing about it.

Hold this thought for a moment while I delve into the third-party grading (TPG) aspect.

I think the notion of an "objective standard" is more apt to explain how an impartial opinion of grade gets coupled with past sales, and we've progressed to a point in the hobby where an aggregator (i.e. GPA) gives us a unit of value which we see as arriving closer to a definitive metric, when it's matched to an impartial opinion of grade. Some might believe it lends itself to a methodology that is more precise than we've ever had.

However, as evolved as this hobby has become in this regard, the outlier and anomalous sales almost always get relegated to rogue conduct, shilling or other nefarious activity. If we can confidentaly say we've arrived at a standardized model of knowing the value commensurate to grade, why are people still overpaying?

There's a very interesting situation I've been observing on eBay at the moment, where a comic/collectibles dealer with a steeped history of being discussed on these forums has been auctioning a number of items. For the past month, they have been auctioning items being advertised as the "Cincinnati/Ohio collection", and are purported to have come from an "ex-Kenner" employee. Of course, they've relied on the close to the vest approach by not naming the person who worked at Kenner, even though they are seemingly benefiting by suggesting these items were made by someone who once worked for the toy company. More significantly, they have yielded staggering prices on items which has caught the attention of the collecting community, and not for the right reasons. Some examples are below:

For those not immersed in this side of collecting, the POTF2 hardcopies (Stormtrooper and Luke) had been consistently selling in the $1500-$2K range in Facebook groups, and yet this seller has somehow managed to sell them at 2 to 3 times what they would normally sell for because they have used crafty language to describe them as being something special.

The listing with the 5 Boba Fett fakes is next level disdain stuff. I can call them fake because I know at least two of the figures from that batch are sourced by an Asian faker, and the other three are copies based on those. As an owner of an original, it bothers me these are floating around out there, but to have sold these as something that was produced from "original molds" is absolute rubbish and deceptive. These can be had for between $20-$30 each on eBay, and if you deal directly with the source in Asia for them, you could probably get them all for less than $100. To have sold these for $5600 because they were made using the "original molds" is outrageous, and they have really gotten the collecting community riled-up.

With two TPG's in the toy hobby, the question isn't why haven't these been authenticated to maximize their return, but why would they need to if they are getting these insane prices? And yes, this has everything to do with comics because this is a dealer who has had the fire lit under their feet for many years, concerning various missteps, with a number of the issues revolving around not feeling the need to kowtow to comic geeks needs or requests. Now they are pulling off the scheme in another hobby, and niether eBay or anyone is holding them accountable.

Beyond the "don't like what we listed, or how we described it, move on" attitude, it's one thing to recognize the way community culture has become fragmented, and doesn't function as effectively as it once did. But when we see these outliers, we need to remain aware that there are those who have found other ways to maximize their returns, and those willing to stick their necks out to shine a spotlight on nefarious activity are becoming fewer. The common thread TPG shares with flipping and making a quick buck is greed, and when you start to realize the backlash will always be there when people perceive your awareness campaign as cutting into their profits, you quickly lose your willingness or desire to stick your neck out. IMHO, one of the more important overlooked aspects is how this kind of dubious activity speaks to the qualitative aspects of using eBay as a source for past sales data.

The latter is something we should care more about, maybe even more than holding people to the need to use TPG's, but again, nobody cares, because it's all about making bank, and outlier sales are too attractive an opportunity to use for pricing resets and new value benchmarks.

Edited April 23, 2018 by comicwiz

[comicwiz]

@Architecht why are the boards auto-linking any mention of eBay?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

All that has been discussed and described in the thread is a pursuit of (hoped for and rarely realized) profit under the guise of a hobby. That muddies everything that is a hobby, and always will. No TPG exists without a profit motive. No 4PG exists without a profit motive based on the profit motive of the TPG. It is the very, very rare hobbyist that pursues a hobby without any profit motive. All the TPGs and 4PGs do is fulfill a perceived need for relevance of the item collected. Just an opinion.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Phantalien said:

I think that the main thing for me is that despite this being a thread about why we need the CGC you spent too much effort talking about a real ebay seller with a specific auction in mind and a response from that seller.

It's clear to me that you assume too much about what I know based on what I choose to discuss as I like to play devils advocate on point of view, and, just because I give another point of view doesn't mean I don't understand, agree, or sympathize.  IT is just my focus of discussion.

I've already explained to you that that was simply an example. I'll say it again: do not mistake my willingness to get into the weeds with you about that specific example...or even responding to others about it, as well...as a focus on that example. It is merely an example to preface the point. It can be substituted with any of thousands of other examples. At this point, you are belaboring that example, for motives of your own. I'll discuss anything with anybody, but complaining about how a discussion unfolds, rather than discussing the actual topic, serves no valid purpose. 

Your opinion is duly noted. If you have an issue with this thread, you're more than welcome to participate in any of the thousands of other threads, or start one of your own.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

All that has been discussed and described in the thread is a pursuit of (hoped for and rarely realized) profit under the guise of a hobby. That muddies everything that is a hobby, and always will. No TPG exists without a profit motive. No 4PG exists without a profit motive based on the profit motive of the TPG. It is the very, very rare hobbyist that pursues a hobby without any profit motive. All the TPGs and 4PGs do is fulfill a perceived need for relevance of the item collected. Just an opinion.

What do you mean by "4PG"? Do you mean fourth party grader?

Since everything material (and much that is immaterial) that is possessed by another has value by virtue of its possession, then that everything has a cost if someone else wishes to obtain it. 

You say "no TPG exists without a profit motive"...but motive for what kind of profit? The value of the TPG is that they have no direct interest in the exchange of the items in question. They are unattached, and therefore, unbiased. They are not in favor of the buyer, and they are not in favor of the seller. Because they have no direct interest, they can offer a fair, educated opinion on the condition of the item in question.

That does not preclude indirect influence by those who submit. Obviously, that exists, because you're dealing with people. But, the system is set up to avoid that, at least in theory, and usually in practice. I do not get to call up a TPG and say "hey...you graded this book a 6.5, and I think it should be graded a 9.4! I want a 9.4, or I won't send you any more books!" 

Are there people who call up and say "hey...you graded this book a 9.2 and I think it should be graded a 9.4! I want a 9.4, or I won't send you any more books!"...? 

Well, probably not that curtly or threateningly, but yes, that certainly has happened, and will continue to happen. And there's nothing wrong with that, either, because...grading is subjective. That doesn't mean (and it's sad that I have to say this) that grading is SO subjective that ANY opinion is valid. It means that there is a reasonable range into which any book can fall, and still be "graded correctly."

So, I disagree with your contention that all TPGs (and whatever a 4PG is) exist to fulfill a perceived need for relevance. The need fulfilled...if you can call it a need...is to provide an educated, uninterested opinion about the condition of an item. It's no different than taking a car you wish to purchase to a mechanic to get an analysis of its condition, or hiring an appraiser to appraise the condition of your house. In fact, it's a little better than that, because that appraisal and analysis can (and frequently does) follow the item after it is sold by whomever submitted it.  

 

[Get Marwood & I]

2 hours ago, comicwiz said:

@Architecht why are the boards auto-linking any mention of eBay?

...and providing additional background info when you type TPG ?

@Architecht

[comicwiz]

That's interesting. I'm more concerned about the auto-linking because I've seen this on certain message boards, who are either using a hosting company that forces this type of advertising platform as part of their hosting plan, or when there is a scripting vulnerability.

Had I known, I would have used feebay or something to bypass this. I knew PM's used to have this problem, where if you tried to share a link with someone through private messaging, the link would take you to eBay (which was annoying). To see it in the forums now is strange.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

7 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

What do you mean by "4PG"? Do you mean fourth party grader?

Since everything material (and much that is immaterial) that is possessed by another has value by virtue of its possession, then that everything has a cost if someone else wishes to obtain it. 

You say "no TPG exists without a profit motive"...but motive for what kind of profit? The value of the TPG is that they have no direct interest in the exchange of the items in question. They are unattached, and therefore, unbiased. They are not in favor of the buyer, and they are not in favor of the seller. Because they have no direct interest, they can offer a fair, educated opinion on the condition of the item in question.

That does not preclude indirect influence by those who submit. Obviously, that exists, because you're dealing with people. But, the system is set up to avoid that, at least in theory, and usually in practice. I do not get to call up a TPG and say "hey...you graded this book a 6.5, and I think it should be graded a 9.4! I want a 9.4, or I won't send you any more books!" 

Are there people who call up and say "hey...you graded this book a 9.2 and I think it should be graded a 9.4! I want a 9.4, or I won't send you any more books!"...? 

Well, probably not that curtly or threateningly, but yes, that certainly has happened, and will continue to happen. And there's nothing wrong with that, either, because...grading is subjective. That doesn't mean (and it's sad that I have to say this) that grading is SO subjective that ANY opinion is valid. It means that there is a reasonable range into which any book can fall, and still be "graded correctly."

So, I disagree with your contention that all TPGs (and whatever a 4PG is) exist to fulfill a perceived need for relevance. The need fulfilled...if you can call it a need...is to provide an educated, uninterested opinion about the condition of an item. It's no different than taking a car you wish to purchase to a mechanic to get an analysis of its condition, or hiring an appraiser to appraise the condition of your house. In fact, it's a little better than that, because that appraisal and analysis can (and frequently does) follow the item after it is sold by whomever submitted it.  

 

Our age difference is showing, as is our understanding of what a TPG actually does or does not do. Or what a 4PG does or does not do, and whether either have a vested interest or not in what you do (direct or not and that is a very subjective objective), and whether or not a bias exists. I pray that you are not of the opinion that a TPG/4PG does not exist to make a market. I sincerely hope and pray that you don't.

The giveaway of questioning the definition of a 4PG is an example of not understanding making a market. That is neither good or bad, it just is.

Your example of appraising a house and an auto mechanic fails on multiple levels, but it really does not matter.

The only need fulfilled by the entities being discussed is exactly a perceived need by an individual of $ relevance.

But, we are different, and I understand.

 

[comicwiz]

CVA would be an example of a 4PG in comics.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

Our age difference is showing, as is our understanding of what a TPG actually does or does not do. Or what a 4PG does or does not do, and whether either have a vested interest or not in what you do (direct or not and that is a very subjective objective), and whether or not a bias exists. I pray that you are not of the opinion that a TPG/4PG does not exist to make a market. I sincerely hope and pray that you don't.

The giveaway of questioning the definition of a 4PG is an example of not understanding making a market. That is neither good or bad, it just is.

Your example of appraising a house and an auto mechanic fails on multiple levels, but it really does not matter.

The only need fulfilled by the entities being discussed is exactly a perceived need by an individual of $ relevance.

But, we are different, and I understand.

You have not explained what you mean by "4PG". I am giving you the benefit of the doubt by asking you what you meant by "4PG", because there is no such thing as "fourth party", despite the fact that some people think it exists. That is in contradiction to the understanding of what "first", "second", and "third" party means, as a concept and legal philosophy.

The "first party" is always you.

The "second party" is always the other person directly involved in an interaction with you.

The "third party" is everybody else in the entire world. There is no such thing as a "fourth" party, "fifth" party, "sixth" party, because that completely negates the meaning of "first, second, and third" parties.

You can see this clearly in grammar, where there are only THREE types of pronouns: 1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person.

There is no such thing as a "fourth person", since three pronoun forms covers everyone in existence already.

That aside, you say "I pray that you are not of the opinion that a TPG/4PG does not exist to make a market"...you'll have to explain specifically what you mean by that. I have my idea about what you mean, but I don't want to presume, and would rather hear your explanation. As far as the mechanic and real estate appraisal goes, you say they fail "on multiple levels", but do not offer any explanations as to why. They are all third party opinions as to the condition of something. In the event of an appraisal, if you mean (since you do not explain) that there is a VALUE attached along with an appraisal of condition, ok, that's a fair point, but it doesn't negate the fact that it is an appraisal of CONDITION. The auto mechanic does not give opinion about value, only condition.

I'm not sure what our age difference has to do with anything, though. Are you sure we have an age difference...?

Edited April 23, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I understand, your position. Discovering the definition of a 4PG is quite simple. You have been given one example, by another member.

The entities being discussed..... TPG AND 4PG .....exist for profit. The entities make a market, offering a service to establish some semblance of legitimacy and equality. The entities would not exist if the hobbyist did not want to pay for information (relevancy) that supports the hobbyist's perceived need ($), of that which the hobbyist collects.

I think we are talking 2 different definitions. It is Third Party Grading and 4th Party Grading.

I do sincerely pray you don't think a TPG or 4PG entity is grading out of the goodness of their hearts. Of course they are making a market. The 4PG is in fact grading the substance of the opinion of the TPG, and does so by making a specific market, and conditionally establishing an ongoing quest by items graded once by a TPG to be cracked out and re-submitted to the TPG, having "failed" to earn the "approval"and among other aspects, being willing to buy a collectible at the "market" value the 4PG has established within the collector community.

But, you know all this. I will be a bit more clear: TPGs and 4PGs serve a worthwhile purpose and are helpful to the community, especially in drawing in fresh hobbyists that will at least have some level of confidence in the purchases made. But, like any Capitalist entity, and I am all for Capitalism, they would not exist without a vested interest and profit motive. Thus, they make a market.

Again, though, you know all this.

It is the choice of the individual if they want to leave the comfort of a graded piece, and buy raw from any venue of their choosing, and it is their Right to argue, bargain, sniff, scratch, etc. in their pursuit of their own interests and level of ability to identify the value of the piece. If someone wants to tout a higher level of purity via deception and description of a piece than a buyer is willing to believe, that is a simple solution...don't buy it, or in the alternative, bargain it down until it reaches the level of acceptance.

People are not honest. That is a given. Anything of perceived value on a website, that has not had the benefit of a TPG or 4PG lable, should be immediately suspect as to a grandiose description being honest. If the website entity wants to allow it, that is their problem. If the individual buying allows it by not questioning and/or declining, then that is on the buyer. After all, is the buyer of that ungraded (by a respected TPG or 4PG) piece doing anything less than pursuing a possible profit?

[bababooey]

Fourth party just relates to someone further removed from the process, think logistics with 4PL's.  Examples?  The already mentioned CVA in the grading sense but other 4th level services related to the hobby are the informational resource services, cgcdata, gpanalysis...you could probably even call slab-pro a fourth level hard goods provider.  3rd party as it pertains to grading isn't a literal use.

Edited April 23, 2018 by bababooey

[RockMyAmadeus]

32 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

I understand, your position. Discovering the definition of a 4PG is quite simple. You have been given one example, by another member.

CVA is not a "4PG." They are simply another third party. There is no such thing as a "fourth party", though there are people who try to make that be.This is more than a matter of semantics; trying to assign "fourth", "fifth", "10,829,465th" party degrades the meaning of "third party" from "everyone else" to just "the next party in line", which may not be, and usually is not, the case.

Consider this real life example: I send a book to CGC. In that transaction, I'm the first party, and CGC is the second. From CGC's perspective, THEY are the first party, and I am the second.

I then sell that slab to someone. But wait, there's already a "second party" involved in this: CGC. If "parties" are merely a matter of chain of interaction, then the customer is the "third" party, because they're the third entity to be involved with this slab. Right?

But wait! What if I get it verified by CVA first? So, I'm the first party, CGC is the second party, CVA is the third party, and now the buyer is the FOURTH party....

Right?

And if that buyer sells that slab to someone else, does that person become the FIFTH party? 

You can see how the logic fails. 

There is only the first party ("me"), the second party ("the other entity involved in the interaction") and the third party ("everyone else.") Since "third party" encompasses everyone else, further "parties" are not only redundant, but invalidate the meaning of "third party."

32 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

After all, is the buyer of that ungraded (by a respected TPG or 4PG) piece doing anything less than pursuing a possible profit?

Yes. Frequently. Unless your definition of the word "profit" encompasses personal enjoyment, rather than being a merely financial term.

Nothing I have ever posted that you have read would lead you to believe that I would ever think that the TPGs do it "out of the goodness of their hearts", so I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up.

Edited April 23, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

33 minutes ago, bababooey said:

Fourth party just relates to someone further removed from the process, think logistics with 4PL's.  Examples?  The already mentioned CVA in the grading sense but other 4th level services related to the hobby are the informational resource services, cgcdata, gpanalysis...you could probably even call slab-pro a fourth level hard goods provider.  3rd party as it pertains to grading isn't a literal use.

We're getting into the weeds. CVA is not a "4th level" service, even in the sense you're trying to use it. If that were the case, a book would go from CGC to CVA, as part of a built-in process, like an assembly line.

But that's not what happens (nor could it, realistically.) And even if that did happen, the use of the word "party" is what renders the usage inaccurate. CVA would still just be another third party, as it relates to the transaction between a buyer and a seller.

"Parties", as we're using it, are used to refer to entities involved in interactions, whether realized or potential. When I submit, I am the first party and CGC is the second (and vice versa.) If I then send that book to CVA, I am still the first party, and CVA is the second. When and if I sell that slab, both CGC and CVA become the third parties, while I am still the first, and the buyer is the second (and vice versa.)

CGCdata, GPA...these are all third parties when they are viewed from the perspective of a transaction between a buyer and a seller. Who is what party changes, depending on the perspective of the person or entity involved, but there are never more than THREE possible parties, at any time, in any transaction.

[deadleg]

13 hours ago, catman76 said:

To me they didn't revolutionize anything, just ruined comics more by making people even more obsessed with the stupid made up grade number and locking comics up in slabs, defeating the entire purpose of a comic, which is to be read and enjoyed. Who cares what "grade" it's in.

 

[valiantman]

17 hours ago, jcjames said:

now back to the start - so strange that, with all the flaws in the world, that a "professional musician who toured the world" would even bother to waste his incredibly valuable time and energy selling "terminal newsprint" on Ebay instead of much more important things like curing cancer or feeding starving children or ending poverty or even playing music (creating terminal auditory sensations) for money.  

I immediately interpreted "professional musician who toured the world" to mean "the roadie who did sound check for Hanson".