PhilipB2k17 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 And the plot thickens.... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Production-Art-Cover-to-FANTASTIC-FOUR-48-by-JACK-KIRBY-matted-w-cover-print-/152498904641?hash=item2381a49e41%3Ag%3AQKUAAOSwpkFY5PTD&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Pontoon Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) On 4/28/2018 at 5:51 PM, dem1138 said: I updated my initial post and the thread title to reflect these recent posts. Interestingly, what initially looked like a picture of someone admiring the #48 cover now may be someone trying to see how the cover could be a fake. And the 2nd pic of Joe holding the unused #52 cover could be of him holding up his finger and noting "now this one is real." This is just a guess, but the person we see from the back looks like Joe’s son Mark to me. And he’s the person who usually helps out Joe at shows. The FF #48 doesn’t look right to me, but the best comparison would be with a scan of the actual book, not a reprint as somebody posted. A lot of those modern reprints are several generations removed from the original stats even, and the line quality is often degraded. Speaking of Mark Sinnott, unless someone else is handling it now, he’s the person who answers Joe’s email. Somebody could always drop him a line to ask what the story is regarding Joe not signing it. Edited May 1, 2018 by Dick Pontoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem1138 Posted May 1, 2018 Author Share Posted May 1, 2018 1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said: And the plot thickens.... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Production-Art-Cover-to-FANTASTIC-FOUR-48-by-JACK-KIRBY-matted-w-cover-print-/152498904641?hash=item2381a49e41%3Ag%3AQKUAAOSwpkFY5PTD&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter Interesting that the cover at the con doesn't say "1967" under the 'Y' in Yellow on the left margin, '66' next to Feb in the # box and says "FANT FOUR" at the top margin and this production cover does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) I looked over this last night, and worked with the first image posted. I wish I had seen this other image as it would have made repositioning the cover a little easier. I repositioned it to allow me to do a side-by-side comparison, and later a rather crude overlay comparison. I noticed a very slight difference in two people in the crowd, and a line that didn't line-up on Ben's face (his left cheek), but I couldn't definitively conclude that wasn't an artifact of distortion as I had to manipulate an image that was laying flat in a photo and pin it up virtually on my screen as if it were hanging on the wall. The low resolution didn't help the situation any, as the image would be come very pixelated as soon as you enlarged it to get a better look. The one thing I did notice which really sticks out now is the man in the black suit and hat to the very far right of Ben, as well as the partially drawn man to the left of him. I mention this because in the original FF 48, there wasn't a single cover example I could find which showed him full frontal like the ECCC cover art. Seeing the production proof now off the eBay listing, you can see the person even used the original FF 48 cover as the source for the photocopy. The reprinted art, which @skypinkblu has already remarked, is not usually the best comparison, but in this case, it's giving us a clue. I have seen this before, especially with Marvel Masterwork cover recreations, where lines are added, moved, and new art added that wasn't in the original production art. If that ECCC cover was recreated, it couldn't have been based on the original production cover. It had to have been redrawn from a reprinted cover as this is the only version showing that man I circled in the image below in the black suit and hat, as well as the person to the right of him. Edited May 1, 2018 by comicwiz wormboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem1138 Posted May 1, 2018 Author Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, comicwiz said: I looked over this last night, and worked with the first image posted. I wish I had seen this other image as it would have made repositioning the cover a little easier. I repositioned it to allow me to do a side-by-side comparison, and later a rather crude overlay comparison. I noticed a very slight difference in two people in the crowd, and a line that didn't line-up on Ben's face (his left cheek), but I couldn't definitively conclude that wasn't an artifact of distortion as I had to manipulate an image that was laying flat in a photo and pin it up virtually on my screen as if it were hanging on the wall. The low resolution didn't help the situation any, as the image would be come very pixelated as soon as you enlarged it to get a better look. The one thing I did notice which really sticks out now is the man in the black suit and hat to the very far right of Ben, as well as the partially drawn man to the left of him. I mention this because in the original FF 48, there wasn't a single cover example I could find which showed him full frontal like the ECCC cover art. Seeing the production proof now off the eBay listing, you can see the person even used the original FF 48 cover as the source for the photocopy. The reprinted art, which @skypinkblu has already remarked, is not usually the best comparison, but in this case, it's giving us a clue. I have seen this before, especially with Marvel Masterwork cover recreations, where lines are added, moved, and new art added that wasn't in the original production art. If that ECCC cover was recreated, it couldn't have been based on the original production cover. It had to have been redrawn from a reprinted cover as this is the only version showing that man I circled in the image below in the black suit and hat, as well as the person to the right of him. In looking at perfectly centered original FF #48s I see that the man in the hat is cut off but he's clearly present on the production cover and on reprints. So if someone copied the cover either they did it from a reprint or had access to the production cover? Or maybe its evidence that the ECCC OA is the real thing? Edited May 1, 2018 by dem1138 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 I have less confidence that production proof is real than the ECCC cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, dem1138 said: So if someone copied the cover either they did it from a reprint or had access to the production cover? I have less confidence the production proof is real than the ECCC cover, but yes that is the line of thinking. Edited May 1, 2018 by comicwiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 In case you guys needed another example of redrawn art, here is an Avengers 1, showing the Masterworks recreated art, and the original Avengers 1. I circled in purple (because every other colour is present on that cover) to highlight the additional art for the cape curling around Thors knee, which isn't present on the original cover. It's otherwise spot on, so if I see a Avengers 1 cover OA with that additional cape art, it could ony have come from the art used for the reprinted cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmehdy Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, delekkerste said: I saw on CAF a few days ago that Randy Martin had recreated my Alien Worlds #2 cover for someone and was struck by how close it was to the original. Back in my early days of collecting, I had a splash from my favorite CrossGen series (Sojourn) recreated; it was super detailed and yet every single line that should have been there was (obviously a lightbox was used); it wasn't even inked by the original inker either. I think a lot of 1980s-present art wouldn't be overly difficult to fake in the hands of a skilled artist, scary to say. Agree with you Gene, people must be very careful especially when the big bucks are on the table, as anything goes....the amount of $, just look at the new HA auction and how many 10K and up pieces of art are there...what is real, and what is not.....the FF48 cover needs to be vetted by the boards and if it is a "fake" then buyers beware and some forum or list needs to be drawn up of EXISTING fakes to help and protect buyers. Edited May 1, 2018 by Mmehdy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 Maybe Glenn Gold knows this, but is there a surviving Stat of the original FF #48 cover still in the Marvel vault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, comicwiz said: I looked over this last night, and worked with the first image posted. I wish I had seen this other image as it would have made repositioning the cover a little easier. I repositioned it to allow me to do a side-by-side comparison, and later a rather crude overlay comparison. I noticed a very slight difference in two people in the crowd, and a line that didn't line-up on Ben's face (his left cheek), but I couldn't definitively conclude that wasn't an artifact of distortion as I had to manipulate an image that was laying flat in a photo and pin it up virtually on my screen as if it were hanging on the wall. The low resolution didn't help the situation any, as the image would be come very pixelated as soon as you enlarged it to get a better look. The one thing I did notice which really sticks out now is the man in the black suit and hat to the very far right of Ben, as well as the partially drawn man to the left of him. I mention this because in the original FF 48, there wasn't a single cover example I could find which showed him full frontal like the ECCC cover art. Seeing the production proof now off the eBay listing, you can see the person even used the original FF 48 cover as the source for the photocopy. The reprinted art, which @skypinkblu has already remarked, is not usually the best comparison, but in this case, it's giving us a clue. I have seen this before, especially with Marvel Masterwork cover recreations, where lines are added, moved, and new art added that wasn't in the original production art. If that ECCC cover was recreated, it couldn't have been based on the original production cover. It had to have been redrawn from a reprinted cover as this is the only version showing that man I circled in the image below in the black suit and hat, as well as the person to the right of him. The man in the hat x 2 Edited May 1, 2018 by PhilipB2k17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said: I mention this because in the original FF 48, there wasn't a single cover example I could find which showed him full frontal like the ECCC cover art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, comicwiz said: This guy sold the alleged Title splash to FF #48 in 2006 for $635, which he later admits was a recreation. Could wherever this collector got this page from be the source of the cover? http://www.icollectcomicart.com/appraise/Default.aspx?ItemID=1115915&PanelName=ItemDetails#larger Edited May 1, 2018 by PhilipB2k17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee B. Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 5 hours ago, jjonahjameson11 said: So exactly who is the known entity in this picture with Joe? I haven’t met him and would like to know who he is, and I’m certain that others reading this thread would like to know, too. "You're Heisenberg." "You're right." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unca Ben Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) Compare the linework in the three boxes. Especially the vertical box to the left. And compare the wavering line thickness in the top box to the published cover. And the little box where the sleeve meets the tunic, ink disappears on the OA compared to the published cover. And look at the outline of the Watcher's head. Check the line weight (and how it varies) compared to the published cover. Heck, lightweights vary all over the OA from the cover. And feathering differs as well. edit: I did the same comparisons years ago with the FF 48 splash that is shown a post or two above. Same problems in both . Edited May 1, 2018 by Unca Ben Shepherd, Sideshow Bob and wormboy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 Collecting modern direct from artist or rep is looking soooooo much more attractive now John E. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Unca Ben said: Compare the linework in the three boxes. Especially the vertical box to the left. And compare the wavering line thickness in the top box to the published cover. And the little box where the sleeve meets the tunic, ink disappears on the OA compared to the published cover. And look at the outline of the Watcher's head. Check the line weight (and how it varies) compared to the published cover. Heck, lightweights vary all over the OA from the cover. And feathering differs as well. edit: I did the same comparisons years ago with the FF 48 splash that is shown a post or two above. Same problems in both . These are a few instances I picked up as well, but imagine this being printed on a flag, and you needing to pin it to a flat board to get it to as close as how it would like if you were comparing it from a flatbed scan, as that is the imaging type used on the comic. When I got to as close a state, what I noticed is there were a few lines which didn't align correctly along Ben's right cheek, and the litmus test for me was that all the line art (and thickness) otherwise lined-up on his rocky exterior. Anyhow, my guess is if we are noticing these things from less than ideal photos, then I can see how Joe Sinnott noticed something was off when it was in front of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmehdy Posted May 1, 2018 Share Posted May 1, 2018 3 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said: This guy sold the alleged Title splash to FF #48 in 2006 for $635, which he later admits was a recreation. Could wherever this collector got this page from be the source of the cover? http://www.icollectcomicart.com/appraise/Default.aspx?ItemID=1115915&PanelName=ItemDetails#larger AMAZING INFO..the boards are the best....WOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twanj Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 I never noticed the Watcher looked so much like Sloth from the Goonies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r100comics Posted May 2, 2018 Share Posted May 2, 2018 12 hours ago, comicwiz said: I have less confidence that production proof is real than the ECCC cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
