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74 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

Of course, the party line is that they can't consistently detect pressing, so they can't note it.  They do deduct points for a bad pressing job.

At one time, Overstreet considered pressing to be restoration but he eventually backed away from that view, maybe for the same reason. hm

Technology will eventually catch up, though. Release paper leaves residue that can be detected, and a crease that's been flattened out isn't hard to spot. If someone were to press a book with no crease, pressing would be difficult (but not impossible) to detect.

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3 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

Technology will eventually catch up, though. Release paper leaves residue that can be detected, and a crease that's been flattened out isn't hard to spot. If someone were to press a book with no crease, pressing would be difficult (but not impossible) to detect.

You're probably right about that, but I don't think CGC would put pressed books in PLODs at this late date.  It would cause a huge commotion.

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10 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:
10 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

Of course, the party line is that they can't consistently detect pressing, so they can't note it.  They do deduct points for a bad pressing job.

At one time, Overstreet considered pressing to be restoration but he eventually backed away from that view, maybe for the same reason. hm

Technology will eventually catch up, though. Release paper leaves residue that can be detected, and a crease that's been flattened out isn't hard to spot. If someone were to press a book with no crease, pressing would be difficult (but not impossible) to detect.

All the technology in the world doesn't matter if there's no desire to detect it.

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I guess it's time for a reality check here for you guys. Pressing is NOT going away. It will NOT become part of CGC's restoration check..... ever. Even should the technology be available to detect it, it would not be cost effective to apply it to each of the millions of books that are slabbed. I love all of you guy's, but wouldn't everyone be happier if they just let go of all the butthurt..... stop embracing it ? I personally don't have hardly any books pressed, but for me it's mainly a time issue .... so I don't really have a horse in this race. I just hate to see folks I admire and respect to spend so much time agonizing over their disdain ...... how many are there, maybe a dozen collectors who dwell on this still ? I mean, let's say you're a night owl and the sun rising in the morning just "bugs" you..... what are you going to do ? Keep on keeping on, right ? GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

Edited by jimjum12
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9 minutes ago, drbanner said:

But, is pressing restoration?

Sincerely, The Boards 2003

For those who choose to submit to CGC, it is not...... take note of the word "submit".......... GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

 

....stirring the pot since 2002.....

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2 hours ago, jimjum12 said:

I guess it's time for a reality check here for you guys. Pressing is NOT going away. It will NOT become part of CGC's restoration check..... ever. Even should the technology be available to detect it, it would not be cost effective to apply it to each of the millions of books that are slabbed. I love all of you guy's, but wouldn't everyone be happier if they just let go of all the butthurt..... stop embracing it ? I personally don't have hardly any books pressed, but for me it's mainly a time issue .... so I don't really have a horse in this race. I just hate to see folks I admire and respect to spend so much time agonizing over their disdain ...... how many are there, maybe a dozen collectors who dwell on this still ? I mean, let's say you're a night owl and the sun rising in the morning just "bugs" you..... what are you going to do ? Keep on keeping on, right ? GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

I agree with that, but the bigger issue, I think, is that CGC has slabbed millions of comics without any of them being put in PLODs because they were pressed.  To start doing so now would create a sharp line between pre-2018 (or whenever the new policy was put in place) slabs and post-2018 slabs.  It would also mean that pre-2018 slabs would be unlikely to be resubmitted for fear that pressing would be detected and they would end up in PLODs.

These results would disrupt the hobby and CGC's business model.  To what end?  The number of collectors who worry about pressing has dwindled to a small minority, so far as I can tell.  

The decision not to consider pressing resto isn't one that can be reversed at this late date, whatever happens with technology.

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9 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

I agree with that, but the bigger issue, I think, is that CGC has slabbed millions of comics without any of them being put in PLODs because they were pressed.  To start doing so now would create a sharp line between pre-2018 (or whenever the new policy was put in place) slabs and post-2018 slabs.  It would also mean that pre-2018 slabs would be unlikely to be resubmitted for fear that pressing would be detected and they would end up in PLODs.

These results would disrupt the hobby and CGC's business model.  To what end?  The number of collectors who worry about pressing has dwindled to a small minority, so far as I can tell.  

The decision not to consider pressing resto isn't one that can be reversed at this late date, whatever happens with technology.

I would say the vast majority still worry about it, but not in the way they used to.  Now they're hoping it isn't pressed, so they can have it pressed with the hope of a condition upgrade.  The worm has definitely turned, so to speak.

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1 minute ago, Sqeggs said:

I agree with that, but the bigger issue, I think, is that CGC has slabbed millions of comics without any of them being put in PLODs because they were pressed.  To start doing so now would create a sharp line between pre-2018 (or whenever the new policy was put in place) slabs and post-2018 slabs.  It would also mean that pre-2018 slabs would be unlikely to be resubmitted for fear that pressing would be detected and they would end up in PLODs.

These results would disrupt the hobby and CGC's business model.  To what end?  The number of collectors who worry about pressing has dwindled to a small minority, so far as I can tell.  

The decision not to consider pressing resto isn't one that can be reversed at this late date, whatever happens with technology.

..... Absolutely. The stance of an inability to determine is simply a polite way for them to say, "Move along.....this is no longer open for discussion". I have to occasionally remind myself that my beliefs do not have to be embraced by others, however, I always considered resto to be more of a disruptive nature.... a recreation done with an artificial addition made..... i.e. pieces added, color added, etc..... and if done correctly and with skill should not subtract anything from the book's value. In this fleeting world in which we live, I try not to allow myself to be overly burdened with the anality of purism ..... unless there is a realistic and viable endgame, which, in this case, there is not. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

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4 hours ago, entalmighty1 said:

I would say the vast majority still worry about it, but not in the way they used to.  Now they're hoping it isn't pressed, so they can have it pressed with the hope of a condition upgrade.  The worm has definitely turned, so to speak.

Ain't that the truth?

I think pressability is often the main explanation when a book sells for much more than the current grade would seem to indicate it should. 

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On 5/5/2018 at 10:38 AM, Sqeggs said:

Of course, the party line is that they can't consistently detect pressing, so they can't note it.  They do deduct points for a bad pressing job.

As I stated at the time when the whole pressing fiasco came to light on these boards here back in 2005 or thereabouts, I don't really buy the whole theory that if they can't detect it, then they can't note it.  Okay, I do buy it literally, but they still could have done something about it IF they had really wanted to.

After all, as was discovered around the same time with Jason Ewert's micro-trimming, this was another "improvement" being done to books at the time that could not be detected with certainty (unless you had before and after scans of the same book) if the micro-trimming had been done properly.  It's just that CGC came out very strongly against micro-trimming with Borock calling it "destruction of a comic book" (even though it could not be detected in all cases (:) which I assume most collectors brought onto and hence did not partake in this rather nefarious activity.  And oh, I don't really buy the story that micro-trimming if done properly on a non-flagged book (i.e. not submitted proactively as an Ewert book)  can indeed be detected with certainty by the boys at CGC. 

Any bets that if they had made the same strong, bold, and aggressive declaration about pressing which they had made with respect to micro-trmming, stand-alone pressing would not be the cottage industry it is today and very few collectors would actually dare or even think about partaking in this "maximization of potential" activity.  hm

Oh, my bad.........forgot about CCG's "hidden" business model. doh!  lol

Edited by lou_fine
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On 5/5/2018 at 10:38 AM, Sqeggs said:

At one time, Overstreet considered pressing to be restoration but he eventually backed away from that view, maybe for the same reason. hm

No, definitely not for the same reason and really all to do with the entire pressing controversy after it was outed on the boards here that CGC had been giving the green light to standalone pressing.

This was clearly evident from the Overstreet definition of restoration in his Glossary from the 2005 guide before this whole pressing fiasco came to light.  In the 2005 Overstreet Guide, restoration was defined as "Any attempt, whether professional or amateur, to enhance the appearance of an aging or damaged comic book.  These procedures may include any or all of the following techniques: recoloring, adding missing paper, stain, ink, dirt, or tape removal, whitening, pressing out wrinkles, staple replacement, trimming, re-glossing, etc." 

Looks to me like pressing was clearly defined to be restoration by Overstreet as the procedure really has no conservation value and its only real purpose is to enhance the visual appearance of the book.  Needless to say, this was also the accepted standard by collectors within the hobby at the time, prior to CGC's undisclosed and non-communicated revision of what constituted restoration once collectors saw what was happening in the marketplace.  Definitely not a level playing field for the first 5 years of CGC's existence. (tsk)

I also don't believe that Overstreet is now saying that pressing is NOT considered to be restoration, as he appears to be leaving this up to the individual collectors to decide for themselves.  Although he has removed pressing (amongst other procedures :frown:) from his initial sentences under his definition of restoration, he has now added a couple of additional sentences to close off his revised definition of restoration.  His last 2 sentences also states: "There is no consensus on the inclusion of pressing, non-aqueous cleaning, tape removal, and in some cases staple replacement in this definition.  Until such time as there is consensus, we encourage continued debate and interaction among all interested parties and reflection upon the standards in other hobbies and art forms."

Interesting to note that there are now quite a few more former restorative procedures that are now no longer considered to be restoration.  Almost makes me wonder what else will be removed from under the umbrella of restoration as the marketplace moves forward?  And if this is indeed the case, will they let us know proactively or will we simply have to deduce this after the fact, as what happened with the rest of these former restorative procedures.  hm

 

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On 5/5/2018 at 3:01 PM, Sqeggs said:
On 5/5/2018 at 11:12 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Technology will eventually catch up, though. Release paper leaves residue that can be detected, and a crease that's been flattened out isn't hard to spot. If someone were to press a book with no crease, pressing would be difficult (but not impossible) to detect.

You're probably right about that, but I don't think CGC would put pressed books in PLODs at this late date.  It would cause a huge commotion.

+1

There is absolutely no way that CGC would ever put pressed books into any type of non-universal slab if it was up to their own volition even if there was a way to detect it, due to the simple fact that it would invalidate all of their previously graded books.

As I had stated way back when this whole pressing controversy first came to light, the only way this would occur is if ANOTHER grading company with serious and deep connections in the hobby were able to use new technology to come up with a simple and cost effective scientific method to detect artificial pressing.  Strongly doubt this would ever happen, but if it ever did, you can bet that books that passed the "non-pressed" test would be going for more money than the artificially pressed ones in the same grade. 

This would be the only way that CGC would ever tagged pressed books with a non-universal label because they would have to do it if they wanted to remain relevant and survive in the grading business.  Although they would definitely be going there begrudgingly and only in response to what a new competitor was doing in terms of upping the grading game, it sure would encourage a lot of resubs for non-pressed books. :D

 

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23 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

Ain't that the truth?

I think pressability is often the main explanation when a book sells for much more than the current grade would seem to indicate it should. 

Agreed. For CGC collectors who were strongly against pressing back in the early 2000's, it became clearly obvious that they were fighting a losing battle. What I mean is that for instance, Person A purchases the highest graded 9.0 copy of a certain issue for "X" amount of dollars in 2003. Fast-forward to 2013 and that book has only increased 50% in value because everyone and their grandmother is pressing their 8.0's to 9.0's to receive higher grades (some grading at top of census). So now after having held onto the 9.0 copy for 10 years, Person A decides to sell it to Person B for a 50% profit, only to see the new buyer flip the book after a press job at triple the profit. At some point Person A gets tired of seeing this happen over and over again to the books they sell and decide to enter the pressing game as well. This is equivalent to the government putting out bags of cash in the street and telling people to come and grab it without repercussions, even though some people will consider it morally wrong. Guess what, 95% of people will grab the cash and feel just fine about their morality. I wish this was not the case with pressing, but the cat is out of the bag now.

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27 minutes ago, skybolt said:

Agreed. For CGC collectors who were strongly against pressing back in the early 2000's, it became clearly obvious that they were fighting a losing battle. What I mean is that for instance, Person A purchases the highest graded 9.0 copy of a certain issue for "X" amount of dollars in 2003. Fast-forward to 2013 and that book has only increased 50% in value because everyone and their grandmother is pressing their 8.0's to 9.0's to receive higher grades (some grading at top of census). So now after having held onto the 9.0 copy for 10 years, Person A decides to sell it to Person B for a 50% profit, only to see the new buyer flip the book after a press job at triple the profit. At some point Person A gets tired of seeing this happen over and over again to the books they sell and decide to enter the pressing game as well. This is equivalent to the government putting out bags of cash in the street and telling people to come and grab it without repercussions, even though some people will consider it morally wrong. Guess what, 95% of people will grab the cash and feel just fine about their morality. I wish this was not the case with pressing, but the cat is out of the bag now.

The horse has definitely left the barn on this one. I would strongly encourage anyone planning to sell books to look long and hard to decide if they should go through a round of pressing first. Given how even books that got jacked up from the pressing process still end up with big numbers on the label it would be in sellers best interest to get stuff pressed first. I hate it but it is a fact of life. 

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On 5/3/2018 at 6:53 PM, lou_fine said:

Well, having the real books themselves is better than having the auction catalogue. (thumbsu

The only reason I got one is that I contacted them and they Fed Ex one to me immediately.  I never even knew they had catalogues for their auctions until I saw boardies here talking about wanting a copy of the Berk catalogue.  The last catalogue I ever got from Metro was when they had the #1 Catalogue from way back in the 90's.  That was probably also around the last time I ever really purchased anything from them until the Berk Auction.  :D

I loved that catalogue with the Fantastic 3 on the cover.

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On 5/4/2018 at 9:09 AM, entalmighty1 said:

The book isn't as interesting as the label notes here:  https://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?id=762008

So at one point they noted pressing on the label?  Man, if they start changing pressed books to PLOD again, there's going to be a lot of hurt feelings.

Looks like a Methuselah special.

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On 5/5/2018 at 1:38 PM, Sqeggs said:

Of course, the party line is that they can't consistently detect pressing, so they can't note it.  They do deduct points for a bad pressing job.

At one time, Overstreet considered pressing to be restoration but he eventually backed away from that view, maybe for the same reason. hm

I can usually tell when a book was pressed. I find it unbelievable that professional graders can't. I miss fluffy comics. I did get an old label Haunt of Fear 9.0 that I cracked and it was so nice to see the inside cover not all flattened. It looked the way comics used to look when they were purchased new.

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A simple way to at least partially mitigate the problem is for CGC to put less emphasis on certain minor defects that can be pressed out.  As I mentioned earlier in this thread, before CGC, non-color-breaking bends were not considered to be as serious a "defect" as they are now.  If CGC didn't hammer books with these types of minor defects as hard as they do, fewer books would be pressed. 

Of course, I'm not referring to books with significant warping or spine rolls.  Those are defects that should reduce a books grade and, in my opinion, are good candidates for pressing.

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