Is this unacceptable or is it just me? 4 4

[wombat]

10 minutes ago, faster friends said:

I have heard that if anything that qualifies for media mail is in the box, that the entire contents of the box qualify for media mail.

That being said, I have received comics via media mail before that had 1 sheet of music in the box. Sheet music qualifies for media mail.

Would this be an acceptable way to ship comics media mail?

This was not true in my case. I was sending someone an art book. I decided at the last minute to just throw in a comic book and didn't really think about it. I sent it media mail and it was opened and postage was due. In this case the art book probably made up 95% of the weight. 

[DeadOne]

9 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

10 hours ago, DeadOne said:

Doesn't the USPS DMM define advertising as, "Advertising includes paid advertising and the publishers‘ own advertising in display, classified, or editorial style."?
In my opinion, this would mean any advertising paid for, at any time, whether applicable to todays times or not, thus disqualifying most comic books from media mail.

But where is "at any time" found in the DMM? 

That exact phrase is not.  That was my interpretation.... my opinion.
The fact that it is a paid advertisement or the publisher's own advertising should be enough to transcend time or advertising potency.

I also believe that neither comic books nor trades fall into the media mail category because they do not "consist wholly of reading matter".

 
 

[DavidTheDavid]

Coffee table books about famous advertising, shipped media mail.

Now ... go!

[Logan510]

1 hour ago, DeadOne said:

That exact phrase is not.  That was my interpretation.... my opinion.
The fact that it is a paid advertisement or the publisher's own advertising should be enough to transcend time or advertising potency.

I also believe that neither comic books nor trades fall into the media mail category because they do not "consist wholly of reading matter".

 
 

That exact phrase is not there...but neither is any phrase saying there's a time limit or anything about old or defunct advertising. Just because something isn't an ad now doesn't mean it was never an ad.

The USPS really needs to clean up the phrasing on the DMM, but I'm sure them saying comic books are a no no on their website is good enough for them 

[Logan510]

2 hours ago, newshane said:

I'm tired of this excuse. BUT...BUT...in /REAL/ life...

Your "online persona" is absolutely part of who you are in REAL life...probably even more revealing of your true character, since the Internet shields one from the sort of immediate consequences that could arise from soneone's "uncensored" remarks or actions in face-to-face situations.

If you're unpleasant online, the chances of you being unpleasant in real-life rise exponentially.

I've seen enough examples of this to know it's absolutely true.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, newshane said:

I'm not complaining. In fact, I find it quite entertaining and, in your words, interesting. I'm not your enemy, why try to define me as such?

Oh come now. You've been around long enough to know that saying something like "8 pages of argument", without further embellishment, is not going to be seen as an expression of appreciation, regardless of your intent. It is almost universally interpreted as an expression of disdain, not admiration and respect. I have no doubt you find it quite entertaining and interesting; however, those terms are not exclusive to expressions of positive experiences. Lots of people are entertained and interested by housewives flinging pots and pans at each other.

I am not stupid; neither are you.

3 hours ago, newshane said:

Also, my math wasn't off. My statement was on page 8 of 8 (now page 8 of 9).

The "argument", as you referred to it, didn't begin until page 5. Claiming it has gone on for "8 pages" is therefore an exaggeration, and certainly not going to be seen as, again, an expression of appreciation. I am not stupid; neither are you.

3 hours ago, newshane said:

I'm just amused by how far people can take an argument, especially over matters with simple solutions (like, just don't use media mail in the first place).

This is an expression of subtle contempt. Are you aware of that? I suspect you are. In case you are not, again, this is not an expression of admiration and respect.

3 hours ago, newshane said:

I fail to see how my original statement was a complaint, or how it created any additional "tension and discomfort."

But it's 2018, and people seem to have terribly thin skin.

I'm sure. But what you call having a "terribly thin skin", I call "having a wide open and honest understanding of social cues" and "not being willing to play the social games which cause people to quietly resent one another." All up to interpretation, n'est-ce pas...?

If one is going to resent me, I'd much rather it be plain and out in the open, so it can be dealt with, rather than taking the form of passive/aggressive shots at people.

3 hours ago, newshane said:

RMA - the thing that impresses me about you is your dedication to debate, even after someone (like me, in this instance) agrees with you.

I remember our first debate a few years ago. You seemed absolutely shocked that I saw things your way and was able to change my mind. Sorry for taking the wind out of your sails back then, and I'm sorry for doing it now.

There's the operative word - seemed. That was your interpretation of events, and I'm nearly positive that that wasn't my experience in the slightest. As far as being "impressed"...as with "interested" and "entertained", that word, too, is not exclusive to expressions of fraternity and conviviality. Double-edged meanings abound.

As far as my dedication to debate...since I am not stupid, and neither are you, I don't debate people when they agree with me, or, to clarify, on the points with which they agree with me. That would be the act of a fool. If someone wishes to converse, or debate, or discuss, or argue, and someone else...regardless of who, why, when, where, or how long...wishes to do the same, what skin is it off the nose of anyone else? As I have said, countless times in the past, "it takes at least TWO people to continue ANY discussion." Again: in the Metropolis is suing Voldy thread, that has gone on for 18 ACTUAL pages, because there are people who wish to continue discussing the topic.

It's fairly straightforward, and yes, that's mild condescension. This isn't rocket science, and it's not difficult to understand.

And finally...why are you making the discussion about a person (in this case, me) in the first place...? These are rhetorical questions that I know you won't answer, because no one answers them, and the answers are already obvious. There is no place in civil discourse for ad hominem, and yet, this place is filled to the brim with it. Absolutely stuffed to the gills with it. Over and over and over again, when people disagree, they go after the person, rather than the topic.

If someone doesn't agree with you, the answer is so incredibly simple: make your case. If you have made your case to the best of your ability, that's that. Pivoting over to discussions of the personalities of the people involved in the debate is bad form, it's childish, and it has no place in rational discourse.

Notice...I haven't said a word about you or my opinion of you, other than to acknowledge that you are not stupid. And I do so because this line of "argumentation" is beneath you, as it is beneath everyone. Otherwise...how you debate, what informs your debate, the thickness of your skin, your childhood experiences, your relationship with your father...none of that is anyone else's business, and has absolutely no place in civil (as opposed to "polite") society.

You asked that "you are not my enemy, (so) why try to define me as such?", in a post filled with backhanded "compliments." I am not your enemy, nor do I think you are mine. But, given this post, you ought not be surprised if one might tend towards that conclusion. And I say these things BECAUSE I have a measure of respect for you, and treat you as a peer. If I had no respect for you, I wouldn't bother wasting my time laying this out as I have (as, indeed, I don't bother with those I have on ignore.)

3 hours ago, newshane said:

In regards to this debate, I see the validity of your argument...my side is that the post office simply won't care. Of course, you're free to spend your time arguing with the USPS if you wish. I have much better things to do. Best of luck.

Excellent! (and I mean that sincerely.) You have chosen that which is important to you. Might it, then, be much more fair of you to not make expressions of subtle contempt...like this one...to those who think and choose differently from you...? 

Edited May 13, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, newshane said:

I'm tired of this excuse. BUT...BUT...in /REAL/ life...

Your "online persona" is absolutely part of who you are in REAL life...probably even more revealing of your true character, since the Internet shields one from the sort of immediate consequences that could arise from soneone's "uncensored" remarks or actions in face-to-face situations.

If you're unpleasant online, the chances of you being unpleasant in real-life rise exponentially.

Now THIS is something I can wholeheartedly agree with. This is an excellent, and perfectly true, observation, but always with the caveat that "unpleasantness" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, DeadOne said:

That exact phrase is not.  That was my interpretation.... my opinion.
The fact that it is a paid advertisement or the publisher's own advertising should be enough to transcend time or advertising potency.

I also believe that neither comic books nor trades fall into the media mail category because they do not "consist wholly of reading matter".

 
 

Now we're deep into the weeds of interpretation. Do you mean by "reading matter" only words printed on the page, and drawings necessarily and definitively cannot therefore be classified as such? If so, I think that is far beyond the intention of the regulation, and here's my reasoning...

According to DMM 173.4.1, items that qualify for Media mail are as follows:

Quote

 

4.1 Qualified Items

a. Only these items may be mailed at the Media Mail prices:

b. Books, including books issued to supplement other books, of at least eight printed pages, consisting wholly of reading matter or scholarly bibliography, or reading matter with incidental blank spaces for notations and containing no advertising matter other than incidental announcements of books. Advertising includes paid advertising and the publishers‘ own advertising in display, classified, or editorial style.

c. 16-millimeter or narrower width films, which must be positive prints in final form for viewing, and catalogs of such films of 24 pages or more (at least 22 of which are printed). Films and film catalogs sent to or from commercial theaters do not qualify for the Media Mail price.

d. Printed music, whether in bound or sheet form.

e. Printed objective test materials and their accessories used by or on behalf of educational institutions to test ability, aptitude, achievement, interests, and other mental and personal qualities with or without answers, test scores, or identifying information recorded thereon in writing or by mark.

f. Sound recordings, including incidental announcements of recordings and guides or scripts prepared solely for use with such recordings. Video recordings and player piano rolls are classified as sound recordings.

g. Playscripts and manuscripts for books, periodicals, and music.

h. Printed educational reference charts designed to instruct or train individuals for improving or developing their capabilities. Each chart must be a single printed sheet of information designed for educational reference. The information on the chart, which may be printed on one or both sides of the sheet, must be conveyed primarily by graphs, diagrams, tables, or other nonnarrative matter. An educational reference chart is normally but not necessarily devoted to one subject. A chart on which the information is conveyed primarily by textual matter in a narrative form does not qualify as a printed educational reference chart for mailing at the Media Mail prices even if it includes graphs, diagrams, or tables. Examples of qualifying charts include maps produced primarily for educational reference, tables of mathematical or scientific equations, noun declensions or verb conjugations used in the study of languages, periodic table of elements, botanical or zoological tables, and other tables used in the study of science.

i. Loose-leaf pages and their binders consisting of medical information for distribution to doctors, hospitals, medical schools, and medical students.

j. Computer-readable media containing prerecorded information and guides or scripts prepared solely for use with such media.

 

As the above lists attest, there are many items that qualify for Media mail that don't consist of ANY reading matter, such as films, recordings, and the like.

As well, the operative phrase regarding books is "consisting wholly of reading matter, or reading matter with incidental blank spaces for notations AND containing no advertising material whatsoever. 

So, the qualification is directly juxtaposed with the prohibition against advertising, which, again, was put in place to prevent the direct mailing from publishers of periodicals to consumers (which is what Second Class mail was designed for.) In other words, the DMM specifically categorizes advertising as "non-reading matter", but nothing else...even pictures.

If I understand you correctly, that reading matter has to consist solely of printed words on a page, I don't think that's what the DMM says, nor is that the spirit of the regulation.

I'm still not sure why the advertiser having paid for the ads has to do with their longevity.

[DavidTheDavid]

Logic chopping 101.

[jsilverjanet]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Now we're deep into the weeds of interpretation. Do you mean by "reading matter" only words printed on the page, and drawings necessarily and definitively cannot therefore be classified as such? If so, I think that is far beyond the intention of the regulation, and here's my reasoning...

According to DMM 173.4.1, items that qualify for Media mail are as follows:

As the above lists attest, there are many items that qualify for Media mail that don't consist of ANY reading matter, such as films, recordings, and the like.

As well, the operative phrase regarding books is "consisting wholly of reading matter, or reading matter with incidental blank spaces for notations AND containing no advertising material whatsoever. 

So, the qualification is directly juxtaposed with the prohibition against advertising, which, again, was put in place to prevent the direct mailing from publishers of periodicals to consumers (which is what Second Class mail was designed for.) In other words, the DMM specifically categorizes advertising as "non-reading matter", but nothing else...even pictures.

If I understand you correctly, that reading matter has to consist solely of printed words on a page, I don't think that's what the DMM says, nor is that the spirit of the regulation.

I'm still not sure why the advertiser having paid for the ads has to do with their longevity.

I always suspected that the reason the rule exists for media mail is that they didn’t want magazines to take advantage of the lower cost or catalog companies (probably the latter). 

[jsilverjanet]

I’ve shipped many many comics via media mail and have only had the issue of inspection/price increase come up in one state. Florida.

also Florida has lost several packages of mine over the years (all different shipping methods)

[newshane]

The reality is that many people on the boards have been forced to eat charges on books sent by media mail. Continue to debate the ethics and the language of the law if you so desire, but packages have been lost and destroyed at a higher rate than other services and customers have been shafted with additional charges. Roll the dice at your own risk folks.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

17 minutes ago, newshane said:

The reality is that many people on the boards have been forced to eat charges on books sent by media mail. Continue to debate the ethics and the language of the law if you so desire, but packages have been lost and destroyed at a higher rate than other services and customers have been shafted with additional charges. Roll the dice at your own risk folks.

 

Heh heh...that's a funny way you have of "agreeing."  Sounds more like you're reallly trying to persuade people to see and do things the way you do, no...? And isn't that what "arguing" is...?

[jsilverjanet]

54 minutes ago, newshane said:

The reality is that many people on the boards have been forced to eat charges on books sent by media mail. Continue to debate the ethics and the language of the law if you so desire, but packages have been lost and destroyed at a higher rate than other services and customers have been shafted with additional charges. Roll the dice at your own risk folks.

 

I’ve probably lost more items via priority than any other service and it probably accounts for about 15 of the shipping I do via USPS

i probably do 50-60 precent first class mail and about 25-35 percent media mail. 

[Logan510]

I only ship priority and haven't lost a thing, though to be fair I don't do the same volume.

[Buzzetta]

I am as charming in real life as I am on the boards. 

[Logan510]

3 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

I am as charming in real life as I am on the boards. 

[comicdonna]

3 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

I am as charming in real life as I am on the boards. 

I can vouch for that.  I'm glad we met.  

[Logan510]

Just now, comicdonna said:

I can vouch for that.  I'm glad we met.  

But..but..he's a Phish fan 

[comicdonna]

Just now, Logan510 said:

But..but..he's a Phish fan 

I have decided to forgive him for that.