Heritage BP increasing 0

[lou_fine]

42 minutes ago, DanCooper said:

A lot of good feedback and insight from all here on the premium situation, but I think we are all overthinking it a bit.

Using the straight $10,000 hammer price example:

Heritage would take a 15% premium from the seller ($1,500) Seller ends up getting paid $8,500 for his consignment.

Heritage would charge 20% premium to the buyer ($2,000) Buyer ends up paying $12,000

The buyer's premium has nothing to do with what the seller gets. It belongs to Heritage solely.

At Comic Connect/Link, they charge the seller normally 10% premium. Seller would get paid $9,000 for his consignment in this example.

Dan;

I believe you are still getting confused between the Heritage hammer price and the reported final cash sale price.

If we go back to the Heritage $10K hammer price, the final cash price paid is $12K which is the price that is captured in Overstreet/GPA and also the one that is reported in all of the comic related media hype.

Now, if CC or CL also gets this same price for the book in their auctions, the hammer price and the final sale price are exactly the same at $12K since both of these auction houses do not have a buyer's premium.  So, this same book would than be reported with a final cash sale price of $12K for all 3 auction houses, and yet the consignor would receive a net amount of $10,800 (i.e. $12,000 less the $1,200 SP), and as you correctly stated a final net of only $8,500 from Heritage if we assume the standard auction fees without any big customer discounts.

Your calculation of a net of $9,000 for CC and CL is not correct because the final cash price for the book is in fact $12,000 and not the $10,000 Heritage hammer price.  This $10K hammer price is only an interim placeholder that is seen only during the actual Heritage bidding process and is not seen by the general collecting base as its gone once the hammer hits.

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by lou_fine

[DanCooper]

34 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Dan;

I believe you are still getting confused between the Heritage hammer price and the reported final cash sale price.

If we go back to the Heritage $10K hammer price, the final cash price paid is $12K which is the price that is captured in Overstreet/GPA and also the one that is reported in all of the comic related media hype.

Now, if CC or CL also gets this same price for the book in their auctions, the hammer price and the final sale price are exactly the same at $12K since both of these auction houses do not have a buyer's premium.  So, this same book would than be reported with a final cash sale price of $12K for all 3 auction houses, and yet the consignor would receive a net amount of $10,800 (i.e. $12,000 less the $1,200 SP), and as you correctly stated a final net of only $8,500 from Heritage if we assume the standard auction fees without any big customer discounts.

Your calculation of a net of $9,000 for CC and CL is not correct because the final cash price for the book is in fact $12,000 and not the $10,000 Heritage hammer price.  This $10K hammer price is only an interim placeholder that is seen only during the actual Heritage bidding process and is not seen by the general collecting base as its gone once the hammer hits.

Understood fully Lou and I appreciate your feedback and patience explaining this.

It's just that, in my mind, I am treating the Heritage Buyer's Premium as a separate part of the transaction between Heritage and the buyer and not involving the seller.

I understand that the final result price (with buyer's premium involved) is what ultimately all people would want payments to be based on (myself included! )

Thanks again

Mike

( it's really Mike. "DanCooper" is a handle)

 

 

 

[tth2]

On 6/26/2018 at 3:43 AM, lou_fine said:

Well, now this is a completely different scenario then and almost like comparing apples and oranges.

So, unless you are a big time collector and ongoing consignor like Tim who deals in high 5-figure books, other BSD's who deals in 6-figure books, or hook up with one of these guys, you really are back to your hopeful 25% to 35% fees versus your standard 10% fees for both CC and CL. 

Sounds to me that if you are a collector sitting on say, $1M or $2M worth of vintage books in your collection, you will most likely have to sell it all in one or two shots on their terms if you want to get the Heritage fees back down to a reasonable level.  Now, if you wanted to dispose of your collection on your own terms over an extended number of years, then you are most probably out of luck if you go with Heritage.

Sounds to me like a long term collector would still be better off if they didn't want to cash it all out in one shot, and simply go with either CC or CL and parcel out their collection at their own desired pace.  Especially since any additional monies they might have gain from the higher profile and longer reach of the immediate Heritage listings would most likely not make up for the fact that your better books would hopefully increase enough in value over the years to make up any difference by the time you do decide to sell them. 

Dean, I would suggest that you not make any assumptions about what you might or might not be able to get from Heritage and simply talk with them first.  You might be surprised.  In your particular case, because you're a well-known collector (with a great collection despite your best efforts to "aw shucks" everybody), Heritage might very well be willing to offer you attractive terms even without a large commitment from yourself in order to get you in the door. 

The other point I would mention is that Heritage will usually drop the entire SP straight away for any consignment that is Signature Auction worthy.  I sometimes think they have the SP just to have something to give away immediately during negotiations.  The real negotiation is on the BP.  So throw out all the 35%'s and what not, the 20% BP is the real starting comparison point with Comiclink and CC.

[tth2]

On 6/27/2018 at 6:17 AM, PeterPark said:

Everyone probably saves more because I don't bid because of the BP. You're welcome everybody!

[NP_Gresham]

On 6/9/2018 at 9:56 PM, tth2 said:

Just compare the prices of the Berk books that have been resold on Heritage against their sale price on CC, and the answer will be clear.

Maybe CC should have NP in the house.

 

[entalmighty1]

On 6/26/2018 at 5:17 PM, PeterPark said:

Everyone probably saves more because I don't bid because of the BP. You're welcome everybody!

I don't understand why people have this mentality.  The bottom dollar doesn't change one bit.  The 20% buyer premium is calculated into the bid, so when you pull the trigger, the price is already reflected.  You don't get hit with another 20% after you win.

[october]

32 minutes ago, entalmighty1 said:

I don't understand why people have this mentality.  The bottom dollar doesn't change one bit.  The 20% buyer premium is calculated into the bid, so when you pull the trigger, the price is already reflected.  You don't get hit with another 20% after you win.

I don't get it either. I just reduce my actual bid to account for the BP. Heritage shows it all, not that hard to do.

[Dark Knight]

Yep ^

[sfcityduck]

6 hours ago, october said:

I don't get it either. I just reduce my actual bid to account for the BP. Heritage shows it all, not that hard to do.

Are there different tax implications for paying a BP versus a SP?

More specifically, does the use of a BP in addition to or in place of a SP reduce the amount of sales taxes paid on a book?  E.g., if you buy a book at Heritage that hammers at $10K, you pay $10K for the item (subject to sales taxes) and $2K as a "premium" or service fee to Heritage (not subject to sales taxes)?  I don't know the answer, I'm just curious how they account for that.  Obviously, if the hammer price was $12K, as at other houses, the sales tax would be on the full $12K.  If you live in SF, as I do, where sales taxes are around 10%, that $2K difference in "sales price" would amount to a $200 sales tax savings. 

 

 

 

[N e r V]

Now that states have the right to collect sales tax from any online retailer I wonder how that will impact Heritage down the road. They were only collecting sales tax from states where they had a presence before unlike some of the other larger retailers who saw the Supreme Court ruling coming. According to the news it seems only the smaller retailers like them will be impacted because most of the larger ones had started collecting the tax.

[tth2]

10 hours ago, N e r V said:

Now that states have the right to collect sales tax from any online retailer I wonder how that will impact Heritage down the road. They were only collecting sales tax from states where they had a presence before unlike some of the other larger retailers who saw the Supreme Court ruling coming. According to the news it seems only the smaller retailers like them will be impacted because most of the larger ones had started collecting the tax.

Since I live in a place with no sales tax, I don't care! 

But I hope it acts as a big handicap on bidders from places that do have sales tax. 

The best would be if Heritage had to start collecting VAT on all bidders from the UK and Europe.  It would be so great if they had to start from a 20-ish% hole. 

[JollyComics]

On 6/9/2018 at 11:08 AM, Sqeggs said:

Interesting.  I did not know that. 

Heritage Gallery Auction has several offices in NY, Chicago, Dallas, 2 locations in California and Florida. I live in Illinois and get the sale taxes so I have the PO Box address in Wisconsin where I don't get the sale tax.

[NP_Gresham]

On 6/28/2018 at 4:52 AM, entalmighty1 said:

I don't understand why people have this mentality.  The bottom dollar doesn't change one bit.  The 20% buyer premium is calculated into the bid, so when you pull the trigger, the price is already reflected.  You don't get hit with another 20% after you win.

I bid there, but rarely win. Same methodology, I have one bid say $500. If there is $400 in BP and $50 in shipping I bid $50.

The problem is those bids are a waste of time. It makes me wonder if certain well heeled buyers are bidding without the BP.

Either way, the auction house gets not a penny more than what my bottom line is.

This auction house is well known for the in-house shill. One wonders how many books the auction house takes back and sells themselves while taking from the sellers a significant amount of ROI.

If I sell a $1K book that goes for $850 and nets me that less the SP and the auction house is the buyer, then they get to double dip their fees and resell for 1K later and pocket yet more profit.

If I sell on CC or Clink I am fairly confident that the final hammer (knocked down by excessive fees)  did not go to an in-house shiller who is going to take yet another bite at the apple on the resale.

[entalmighty1]

3 minutes ago, NP_Gresham said:

I bid there, but rarely win. Same methodology, I have one bid say $500. If there is $400 in BP and $50 in shipping I bid $50.

The problem is those bids are a waste of time. It makes me wonder if certain well heeled buyers are bidding without the BP.

Either way, the auction house gets not a penny more than what my bottom line is.

This auction house is well known for the in-house shill. One wonders how many books the auction house takes back and sells themselves while taking from the sellers a significant amount of ROI.

If I sell a $1K book that goes for $850 and nets me that less the SP and the auction house is the buyer, then they get to double dip their fees and resell for 1K later and pocket yet more profit.

If I sell on CC or Clink I am fairly confident that the final hammer (knocked down by excessive fees)  did not go to an in-house shiller who is going to take yet another bite at the apple on the resale.

On an intellectual level, I don't disagree with anything you've said here.

Unfortunately, those thought processes rarely come into play for me when I'm bidding, because cool books.  

[szav]

25 minutes ago, NP_Gresham said:

I bid there, but rarely win. Same methodology, I have one bid say $500. If there is $400 in BP and $50 in shipping I bid $50.

The problem is those bids are a waste of time. It makes me wonder if certain well heeled buyers are bidding without the BP.

Either way, the auction house gets not a penny more than what my bottom line is.

This auction house is well known for the in-house shill. One wonders how many books the auction house takes back and sells themselves while taking from the sellers a significant amount of ROI.

If I sell a $1K book that goes for $850 and nets me that less the SP and the auction house is the buyer, then they get to double dip their fees and resell for 1K later and pocket yet more profit.

If I sell on CC or Clink I am fairly confident that the final hammer (knocked down by excessive fees)  did not go to an in-house shiller who is going to take yet another bite at the apple on the resale.

Is there actually some established history or evidence of HA shilling where they were caught doing so?...

Personally given Metropolis/CC's general business practices, poor customer service and issues with selling books with undisclosed resto, and my multiple bad personal experiences bad with metro/cc I have a lot more suspicion that they shill their own books in their own auctions, and I feel like I see a lot more stuff come up for reauction in a short time on their site than HA.

Do the Heritage feature auctions actually have live in person bidders?  If so, I'd think it'd be harder, but not impossible I suppose, for them to be manipulating their auctions.

At any rate, I don't have any evidence that'd hold up in court to back up my suspicion about metro/CC...and none of the auction houses can make me bid more than I want to bid so...the various sellers and buyers premiums they charge, and even whether or not they're shilling, seem like a non issue to me.

[dannyboy]

On a slightly separate topic, and apologies if it's been discussed, but if BP and SP, etc, etc, are all factored into GPA pricing why wouldn't sales tax be included?  I'm paying an extra 9% for all the books I buy on HA and I'm fully aware of it when I bid - basically it's part of the cost of the book.  Why not use it for GPA?  And I know not everyone pays sales tax on HA, but I don't see the relevance, what you pay is what you pay.  And on some of these books that 9% can be a pretty penny.

[HENRYSPENCER]

On 6/8/2018 at 4:35 PM, entalmighty1 said:

Their buyer premium doesn't bother me, as it makes no difference to me as a buyer how the sales price gets split between Heritage and the owner.  Doesn't change how much I'm willing to spend.

Maybe but the added BP artificially inflates the sale price if you compare their results to Comic Connect.  Unless I knew with absolute certainty that what I was selling would command a premium through Heritage buyers I'd look elsewhere because they subtract the BP from your check and then take out their consignment fee.  On a 1200 item, you're only looking at netting around $750 when it's all said and done which is nuts.

Edited June 30, 2018 by HENRYSPENCER

[tth2]

3 hours ago, dannyboy said:

On a slightly separate topic, and apologies if it's been discussed, but if BP and SP, etc, etc, are all factored into GPA pricing why wouldn't sales tax be included?  I'm paying an extra 9% for all the books I buy on HA and I'm fully aware of it when I bid - basically it's part of the cost of the book.  Why not use it for GPA?  And I know not everyone pays sales tax on HA, but I don't see the relevance, what you pay is what you pay.  And on some of these books that 9% can be a pretty penny.

I would be ecstatic if bidders from high sales tax states like CA factored sales tax into their bids.  Even more if European bidders factored VAT into their bids.

[tth2]

1 hour ago, HENRYSPENCER said:

On a 1200 item, you're only looking at netting around $750 when it's all said and done which is nuts.

Again, very few (if any) sellers on Heritage pay the full boat.  

[BAT MAN]

In a previous life I was a quant. I get what some folks on here are saying with respect to this makes no difference with respect to what they are going to spend from a total aggregate perspective/number. But just let that sink in for a moment. Take it in. Granted I have consumed allot of bellvedere tonight so perhaps my intellectual spidie senses are in a different spectrum but seriously 20% BP is absolutely