Framing your OA 3 3

[batman_fan]

I am not sure what people are paying for their frames, but for these two, the framing was around $150 each.  My Peanuts cost more because I double matted it and the frame cost more but it was $220.  I don't see spending 1% the art value on a frame as a big expense.  These prices are for acid free mats, backing board, UV antiglare acrylic.

Edited June 13, 2018 by batman_fan

[Mr. Machismo]

Oh, that’s another thing. Plexi in place of glass in earthquake-heavy areas like San Francisco is wise.

Drymounting is never archival, so it must’ve been something else. Here’s the definition:

Dry Mounting is the process of affixing artwork to foamboard or some other flat, firm substrate by applying of a uniform coat of adhesive between the art and the substrate, and then applying firm, uniform pressure to create adhesion.

 

[MGS]

29 minutes ago, Mr. Machismo said:

Drymounting is never archival, so it must’ve been something else. Here’s the definition:

Dry Mounting is the process of affixing artwork to foamboard or some other flat, firm substrate by applying of a uniform coat of adhesive between the art and the substrate, and then applying firm, uniform pressure to create adhesion.

 

 

Yeah, it may have been something else, or perhaps it wasn't really archival at all.  I've thought about having those pages re-framed, but they're not super valuable, so I don't think it's worth it.

Also, for the most part the pages I've had custom framed are ones that aren't standard 11x17 size.  For pages that are 11x17 I have a few frames that I swap pieces in and out of.  For those I do leave the pages in mylars since otherwise they wouldn't be well-protected.  I agree that there can be some annoying glare issues with the mylar, but I'd rather deal with that than have a valuable page get damaged.

Mike

[ESeffinga]

Framing costs are going to vary by region, just like Housing, food, etc.
Saying a piece was framed for $150 can set unreasonable expectations for folks that live in a pricier part of the country, for instance. I'd expect the cost of framing in NYC to be higher than Tulsa, Ok for instance. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's a reasonable expectation.

To me, the long and short of it is, I try to do no harm. Or in the case of displaying art, do as little harm as possible, while still enjoying the work. And go into it with your eyes fully wide open.

The term "acid-free" for instance can and has been overused by the framing industry for years. In some cases mat board is acid buffered and not truly without acid. The only truly inert mat boards are going to be the 100% rag mats that museums tend to use. I started switching all my previously  framed art to rag mats sometime around the late 90s, and anything purchased since then has been a rag mat. That's a pretty extreme stance to take though. Once could easly make sure that the bottom mat that comes into contact with the art is a rag mat, and then any 2nd - level decorative mats over the top could be whatever. The acid isn't going to migrate through the art through the rag mat in our lifetimes. Maybe when your kids get it. But then, they'll probably have sold this stuff off to buy a new sofa or take a trip to New Orleans, anyway.

Also the frames themselves are largely acidic. Most of they can

It help it, being made out or organic material. The ones that are finished inside and out are often buffered by that finish, but in the end, so long as the work is only touching good stuff, and you keep it positioned to a wall not facing full sun, you should be good for your lifetime (barring floods, earthquakes, fires, etc).
 

But there's a tradeoff, as there is with everything. And everyone is going to have their individual lines in the sand. God knows I've spent more than my share  custom framing that was rendered useless years later when I sold a piece. I look at that as the cost of enjoyment for the time it was on the wall.

I think the lead-off post by @Mr. Machismo falls in line with where I'd normally suggest people start. I've said before that I was lucky to have a wife who ended up running a number of frame shops for a period of about 7 years, way back when. She was a CPF with archival training, so I learned many of the ins and outs from her long ago, and when she bailed on framing and her carreer started elsewhere, I kind of took over the framing tasks. But I've been buying the moldings and putting together my own frames for my art for about 15 years now. Prior to that she took care of the framing (with my input of course), but we thankfully never had to leave our art in the shop, so she could take it in, put it together and bring it home with her. And now, I just do it all on the kitchen table. Sometimes I order the mats, and sometimes I cut the matboard, depending on what deals I can find for pieces and parts. I''ve got a couple large boxes of old frames, glass etc. tucked away in the basement from pieces that went away, back when I was still refining the collection down to the very personal pieces that are reflected in what it is now. So thankfully I don't need to get glass too often, but every once in a while I do. I've picked up glass from the local shops, from the glass shops, or even from Michaels when I have to, but that's not my preference.

But here's the thing. It's possible to go overboard on framing. Truly. For a cover like the Court of Owls #1, I can easily see spending $3-500 to put it together, no problem. But for some, that's too steep. My wife once spent something like $350 framing a poster/print that cost her a whopping $10. And that was "cost" for the shop. If it had been a real order, it would have been something approaching $800.

And following that line of logic, I'd never spend money to frame something unless it just HAS to be on the wall. The reason I have those boxes of frames is that I was framing a lot of work without really knowing myself well enough to know I'd want to keep it long term or not. And now I'm MUCH more picky about what frames. not least of which because I don't have the wall space for anything that is not 100% a "keeper". And adding something means removing something else I already know I enjoy. So it's a brutal survival of the "best of the best" in my eyes. It's saved me a chunk of money the last 10 years, because there've been a few pieces I procrastinated on framing, that I eventually sold on after living with them for a few years.

Anyhow, if you love it enough to hang it on your wall, take the time to do it right. It will pay dividends not just in how well it holds up, but in the level of presentation in can provide.

Not all black frames are created equal. I've seen black frames that from a distance look similar, and from close up you can see the quality clearly. And that difference can vary by as much as $20-100 per linear foot. I bought an $82 a foot frame over a $15 a foot frame one time just because it was the "right" frame for the piece, and most folks wouldn't have even noticed them being different. But for me presentation is important. Not gaudy, not frilly or detailed or busy. Just quality of the look. I really want the art to be what sings, but I do like giving it a fairly classic stage.

 

[batman_fan]

7 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Framing costs are going to vary by region, just like Housing, food, etc.
Saying a piece was framed for $150 can set unreasonable expectations for folks that live in a pricier part of the country, for instance. I'd expect the cost of framing in NYC to be higher than Tulsa, Ok for instance. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's a reasonable expectation.

To me, the long and short of it is, I try to do no harm. Or in the case of displaying art, do as little harm as possible, while still enjoying the work. And go into it with your eyes fully wide open.

The term "acid-free" for instance can and has been overused by the framing industry for years. In some cases mat board is acid buffered and not truly without acid. The only truly inert mat boards are going to be the 100% rag mats that museums tend to use. I started switching all my previously  framed art to rag mats sometime around the late 90s, and anything purchased since then has been a rag mat. That's a pretty extreme stance to take though. Once could easly make sure that the bottom mat that comes into contact with the art is a rag mat, and then any 2nd - level decorative mats over the top could be whatever. The acid isn't going to migrate through the art through the rag mat in our lifetimes. Maybe when your kids get it. But then, they'll probably have sold this stuff off to buy a new sofa or take a trip to New Orleans, anyway.

Also the frames themselves are largely acidic. Most of they can

It help it, being made out or organic material. The ones that are finished inside and out are often buffered by that finish, but in the end, so long as the work is only touching good stuff, and you keep it positioned to a wall not facing full sun, you should be good for your lifetime (barring floods, earthquakes, fires, etc).
 

But there's a tradeoff, as there is with everything. And everyone is going to have their individual lines in the sand. God knows I've spent more than my share  custom framing that was rendered useless years later when I sold a piece. I look at that as the cost of enjoyment for the time it was on the wall.

I think the lead-off post by @Mr. Machismo falls in line with where I'd normally suggest people start. I've said before that I was lucky to have a wife who ended up running a number of frame shops for a period of about 7 years, way back when. She was a CPF with archival training, so I learned many of the ins and outs from her long ago, and when she bailed on framing and her carreer started elsewhere, I kind of took over the framing tasks. But I've been buying the moldings and putting together my own frames for my art for about 15 years now. Prior to that she took care of the framing (with my input of course), but we thankfully never had to leave our art in the shop, so she could take it in, put it together and bring it home with her. And now, I just do it all on the kitchen table. Sometimes I order the mats, and sometimes I cut the matboard, depending on what deals I can find for pieces and parts. I''ve got a couple large boxes of old frames, glass etc. tucked away in the basement from pieces that went away, back when I was still refining the collection down to the very personal pieces that are reflected in what it is now. So thankfully I don't need to get glass too often, but every once in a while I do. I've picked up glass from the local shops, from the glass shops, or even from Michaels when I have to, but that's not my preference.

But here's the thing. It's possible to go overboard on framing. Truly. For a cover like the Court of Owls #1, I can easily see spending $3-500 to put it together, no problem. But for some, that's too steep. My wife once spent something like $350 framing a poster/print that cost her a whopping $10. And that was "cost" for the shop. If it had been a real order, it would have been something approaching $800.

And following that line of logic, I'd never spend money to frame something unless it just HAS to be on the wall. The reason I have those boxes of frames is that I was framing a lot of work without really knowing myself well enough to know I'd want to keep it long term or not. And now I'm MUCH more picky about what frames. not least of which because I don't have the wall space for anything that is not 100% a "keeper". And adding something means removing something else I already know I enjoy. So it's a brutal survival of the "best of the best" in my eyes. It's saved me a chunk of money the last 10 years, because there've been a few pieces I procrastinated on framing, that I eventually sold on after living with them for a few years.

Anyhow, if you love it enough to hang it on your wall, take the time to do it right. It will pay dividends not just in how well it holds up, but in the level of presentation in can provide.

Not all black frames are created equal. I've seen black frames that from a distance look similar, and from close up you can see the quality clearly. And that difference can vary by as much as $20-100 per linear foot. I bought an $82 a foot frame over a $15 a foot frame one time just because it was the "right" frame for the piece, and most folks wouldn't have even noticed them being different. But for me presentation is important. Not gaudy, not frilly or detailed or busy. Just quality of the look. I really want the art to be what sings, but I do like giving it a fairly classic stage.

 

I think I didn't come across clearly in my post.  I buy from American Frame which is an online vender so I don't think prices varies based on where you are at unless they charge sales tax.  For actually doing the physical framing, I do it myself.  Everything is delivered by American Frames ready to assemble, I just use a small amount of archival tape to hold the art on the mat and use the special stapler to fix the backing board again the art.  It typically take about 15 minutes to do it.

[ESeffinga]

FWIW, I wasn't responding to your post, but to the thread. There are multiple folks tossing out prices of what framing costs them.

But since you mention your method, I too do something similar to what you do sometimes. I've bought frames from pictureframes.com before. The frames the offer vary a LOT in quality, but they will send free samples if people want to see what's on offer. I typically pick the moulding styles that are most appealing for a project and have them send me a sample of the frame before I choose one. I've also purchased mats from them for a few pieces over the years. Mostly as a time saving measure for me. Their color choices are limited for true archival friendly 100% rag mats, but since I always use white, and only occasionally will use a bottom mat, it suits me fine.

I still make my own japanese hinges, and assemble the pieces that way, but the basic approach is the same. Given what I know how to do, I'd definitely rather do this than give the piece over to any framer. If I knew nothing about framing and didn't want to, I'd certainly seek out and form a good relationship with a well regarded frame shop in my area. Doing it right has a ton of benefits. Doing it wrong certainly has a lot of lessons to teach.

Someone else mentioned buying more art vs. spending the money on framing. I believe there was a time about 20 years ago when I was the same way. I wanted more, more more. Why have the art out and look at it every day, when I could have more art. And at a certain point, that switch flipped the other way. I'm pretty sure it was when my wife decided she wanted to frame some pieces for the house. She took in and framed a bunch of the Sandman art that is hanging in our dining room. It was like a mini-gallery. It all looks great together. It ties together as a body of work, and it ties the room together visually. Once I saw what hanging the art with an actual plan was like, I was hooked.

From the day we moved in until she took those Sandman pieces in to frame them the way I'd started doing some of the most recent pieces (white mat, black frame), the previous years of hanging our art was a matter of  "hey, This one fits on this wall. This one can go over there. We can stick these three over here. But the frames were all chosen by the piece, and so they all looked interesting individually, and we balanced them out by size or color.... but it took me a while to come around to the fact that they fought with each other visually and by content. Gold frames, silver frames, black frames, mats color matched to the colors of the colored work, or (god forbid) colors of the character's costumes or whatever, even though the art is b&w.

It took me my first few years collecting and framing, and Jeff Jones talking to us about framing on the Comicart-L to break me of that. Once I tried doing pieces "Jeff's way", I was sold. And then it took a bit of convincing to bring Sarah around. She was a framer after all, and they are very much encouraged to make frames into visual "furniture". To effectively "extend" the art by bringing in complimentary colors, echoing style cues, and even cutting mats to creative shapes, etc. And it wasn't until we finally eschewed most of that eye candy for the basics and started following a semblance of a formula, that our home as personal gallery really started to come together. Living with it now, I wouldn't trade the frame costs for "more art" any day of the week. The effect it had on the feeling of home to me personally far far outweighs the money spent, or the "more more more" I could have had sitting in a closeted/shelved portfolio somewhere. It's almost hard to put into words, as it really is a deep personal feeling.

There've been some curatorial growing pains along the way, but it's come together organically.

And even with all of that said, it never ends. Our house is largely worked out now, as far as what pieces are where and why. It's taken me about 18 years now to work it out, and just this last spring I've been reworking the basement, to try and get things sorted out down there, as it's been the last bit of wild west space in the house that's been hung and rehung a half dozen times. At one point it was largely Long Halloween art. It's been mostly the catchall for a number of misc pieces the last few years (Hellblazer, Marquis, Nightmare Before Christmas) and I've finally turned a critical eye to it and ripped out the old bar (and some flooring and plumbing) and have just finished repainting down there. Once I've finalized some trimwork, I'll be putting the whole thing back together. And the only reason I mention it, is because the whole thing was done to push the home art gallery feeling down into that area.

Through it all Sarah's been an ally (which I know a lot of people don't ahve the whole house luxury) and we dig into these things together. Once it's done, I think I'll finally be happy with the house and the collection. And in the back of my mind, I know I'll always tinker, because it's that collector mindset. We're never ever "done".

Edited June 14, 2018 by ESeffinga

[Reba]

Hi everyone. This is my very first post here but I figured it was time to finally join in since I have a lot of framed art on the wall. Going back to the original post, with good framing you don't need to keep the art in mylar although I might consider that approach if I was using pre-bought frames where I was swapping the art out a lot. Agree with previous posters who advocate for finding a smaller local framer and building an ongoing relationship. I found my framer by finding out who the local art galleries use and then finding out who that person recommend after discovering they exclusively do gallery work. All my comic art is framed absolutely identically because I planned from the very start that that there would be a lot of art on the wall and this would give me the fun of being able to move it around easily for different at home 'exhibitions' (it does!).  The comic art is all framed 'float mounted' using Japanese hinges because I like to see the whole page but then I vary the look of things in the house by mixing up how the non-comic art is framed. As a general rule though, there's not a lot of framing 'design' involved and no frames are much more than a secure, simple and safe scaffold for the art. Anything I have under a mat has no hinges attached at all and I live with the 'risk' that the art might slip. My tip for anyone using Japanes hinges, as I do for the float mounts for comic art, is to learn how to remove them yourself. I'm lucky that my framer has a paper conservationist on hand so I've been able to learn this task because I didn't want to be caught out if I wanted to sell a page and my framer has closed. Yep, I've tested this out by removing pages from both the hinges and the frame and I can't  tell where the hinge was at all and I was pretty super keen to be able to find even the teensiest tiniest mark. Everyone will like different types of framing and design and displays so my tip would be to go with whatever framing amd design works for your eyes but maybe think about the hanging systems in your house. I have old-fashioned picture rails where the art hangs on wires so I can really easily change the order and height of the art in any room without leaving holes in the wall. Basically, with only the same number of pieces framed, I can dramatically change the look of my exhibit. Sometimes just moving different pieces next to each other can refresh your eyes for a piece you might have thought you were entirely familiar with. Oh, and I only use the 99% UV perspex while keeping art out out direct sunlight because glass is HEAVY and riskier to transport. My pieces are super light to move around. Thanks for the conversation everyone (and all the conversations where I've just been a lurker)!

[Stefanomjr]

My second batch of art is currently at the shop being framed. I spoke with an art dealer, years back, who gave me tips on what to ask for what to look for and what to insist upon. Acid-free, archival, museum quality, UV protection. All of the above goes into my framing choices and my cost comes out to about $220 per piece (I'm on the east coast)  More importantly I have built a relationship with my small local shop owner, who, coincidentally, grew up near, and would visit, Joe Kubert's house in NJ. 

All of my currently framed art has frame backing paper. I am toying with the idea of having the next batch of art framed using frame spring clips for the backing - that way i can swap out the art from the frame (running out of designated wall space).

Anyone have thoughts on pros and cons of using the spring clips? 

 

Thanks!

[batman_fan]

4 hours ago, Stefanomjr said:

My second batch of art is currently at the shop being framed. I spoke with an art dealer, years back, who gave me tips on what to ask for what to look for and what to insist upon. Acid-free, archival, museum quality, UV protection. All of the above goes into my framing choices and my cost comes out to about $220 per piece (I'm on the east coast)  More importantly I have built a relationship with my small local shop owner, who, coincidentally, grew up near, and would visit, Joe Kubert's house in NJ. 

All of my currently framed art has frame backing paper. I am toying with the idea of having the next batch of art framed using frame spring clips for the backing - that way i can swap out the art from the frame (running out of designated wall space).

Anyone have thoughts on pros and cons of using the spring clips? 

 

Thanks!

I have used them for metal frames but I don't really like them. I find they pop out easily but for metal frames they are the only option.  I used them on my D ick Sprang Batman pieces because metal frames seem more stable than wood frames.

[glenbru]

On 6/12/2018 at 9:09 PM, MGS said:

The first few pages I had framed at my local framer were (I believe) dry mounted in some kind of "archival"-ish way, but to be honest I didn't really know enough about the process, so who the hell knows.  The framer assured me that the process could be undone without harming the art.  To their credit, when I had them remove one of the pages from the frame a few years later it came out without any visible damage.  The back of the board did feel a little rougher than usual, but to be fair I can't say for sure it didn't start out that way.  Other than that you wouldn't know anything had been done to it.  That being said, after those first few pages I've gone with hinges so I don't have to worry about it.  I'd say that $300 figure sounds about right for an 11x17 page with museum glass.

One thing I did do intentionally, knowing that it will cause issues in the long run was have this Parker page by Darwyn Cooke matted so that handwritten title appears in a cut-out in the matte:

Yeah, I know it will probably cause the page to fade unevenly, but I liked the way it looked, and it's not in direct sunlight, so hopefully it won't be too bad.  Oh well, I guess I'll just have to hold onto it forever to avoid any problems when it's time to sell.

Mike

Love this Parker page, and the cut out.  Happy to buy it when the cut out fades.

Glen

[ender]

There are a lot of really beautiful pieces framed on here.  I am super envious.  I have just gone a totally different direction.  I go to Kinkos and make a color laser copy of the art for about 3.00 on cardstock, and then just frame it myself in a cheap frame.  If it fades, that is fine I have the original and I just start over, although I have not experienced that to be honest.  Not saying this is a better way, far from it, but it is a different path.  The limitation is I don't have all the layered mats that I have seen and Honestly a lot of the pics in this thread look better.  I just think that if I spent 300 or more on each could I have gotten another piece of art with that cash.  Anyway just my .  Really enjoyed seeing everyone's art, so Thanks!

[batman_fan]

10 hours ago, ender said:

There are a lot of really beautiful pieces framed on here.  I am super envious.  I have just gone a totally different direction.  I go to Kinkos and make a color laser copy of the art for about 3.00 on cardstock, and then just frame it myself in a cheap frame.  If it fades, that is fine I have the original and I just start over, although I have not experienced that to be honest.  Not saying this is a better way, far from it, but it is a different path.  The limitation is I don't have all the layered mats that I have seen and Honestly a lot of the pics in this thread look better.  I just think that if I spent 300 or more on each could I have gotten another piece of art with that cash.  Anyway just my .  Really enjoyed seeing everyone's art, so Thanks!

That is the approach the guy who owns Heroes Comics in Campbell, CA used. He had some really cool stuff hanging in his shop 

[Panelfan1]

14 hours ago, ender said:

There are a lot of really beautiful pieces framed on here.  I am super envious.  I have just gone a totally different direction.  I go to Kinkos and make a color laser copy of the art for about 3.00 on cardstock, and then just frame it myself in a cheap frame.  If it fades, that is fine I have the original and I just start over, although I have not experienced that to be honest.  Not saying this is a better way, far from it, but it is a different path.  The limitation is I don't have all the layered mats that I have seen and Honestly a lot of the pics in this thread look better.  I just think that if I spent 300 or more on each could I have gotten another piece of art with that cash.  Anyway just my .  Really enjoyed seeing everyone's art, so Thanks!

everyone has their own way.

For me - the idea of making a copy and looking at that - defeats the purpose of owning a one of a kind item.  

if you cant enjoy the real thing - and saving money is a factor -why not just collect prints and really save money? or buy an artist edition, cut it up and hang that art?  one can pretend to own really awesome art on a budget in this way.

[aokartman]

5 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

everyone has their own way.

For me - the idea of making a copy and looking at that - defeats the purpose of owning a one of a kind item.  

if you cant enjoy the real thing - and saving money is a factor -why not just collect prints and really save money? or buy an artist edition, cut it up and hang that art?  one can pretend to own really awesome art on a budget in this way.

This is a good comment.  In fact, there are times I have printed out 11 X 17 images from online sources for my own use, and I get some satisfaction from the resulting print that tells me I really don't need the original art, as much as I appreciate it.  And, I have printed copies of comic art I own, for my displays, which allow the originals to remain in a safe place while the image can be out there to share. 

Best, David S. Albright
.

[BeholdersEye]

FYI - I know it's been discussed by many of my peers who opted to frame their artwork, and doing so professionally with archival quality and aesthetic materials.  When it came time to sell the pieces, most auction houses prefer the artwork without the frames (since there's added cost by weight and dimensions to ship and added risk for damage to the artwork due to the nature of  being framed and exposed to hazardous handling).  Then, many collectors see less or no value in framing, so would rather acquire artwork unframed.  It takes a special person to see value in framing that would be willing to pay a premium for that perceived benefit. 

So, for a personal collection to display, kudos to you, and enjoy.

But, if you plan on selling the piece, know the frame is more of  a detriment than a value added benefit. 

[Collectr]

On 6/13/2018 at 2:09 PM, MGS said:

 

Congrats on this piece, MGS.

Wish I had original art from that series. Loved it since the day I first read Hunter. Cooke's noir art is truly amazing stuff.

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Collectr
/

[MGS]

6 hours ago, Collectr said:

Congrats on this piece, MGS.

Wish I had original art from that series. Loved it since the day I first read Hunter. Cooke's noir art is truly amazing stuff.

 

Thanks.  Yeah, I've been a big fan of the Parker series for a while, and I really enjoyed Cooke's versions.  It's a shame that we only got four of them.  I've only actually seen art floating around for The Outfit and The Score.  I wonder if art from the other two books will come out at some point.

Mike

[Subby1938]

So my two cents on framing .... I love my artwork . So much so whatever I buy I frame because the point of collecting my fav artists is to enjoy them everyday up on my walls. I think it’s completely irrelevant to put stuff in portfolios and boxes tucked away and if you do that you shouldn’t collect art it’s called hoarding .

I frame  my pieces as I get them because it can get costly if you wait to do them in groups. I have custom framer I trust and they know exactly how I like to stick to themes . I always use acid free mattes and best glass I can for UV protection . It adds zero value to your art so keep that in mind but when done properly really does the art justice on a wall. 
 

Most of my art I use black matte I prefer it to give image more pop but will use coloured accent matte lines to draw colour from some of the art. No two frames are alike except for my mirrored Spiderman museum pose pieces. I love hand picking each frame but keeping the look on theme with the rest  I keep my Spiderman art with Spidey and the Namor stuff with Namor and the results are stunning . Work in progress but you get idea:

 

 

[Subby1938]

Few more shots 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Subby1938

[TheGrayGhost]

On 5/31/2020 at 8:16 AM, Subby1938 said:

So my two cents on framing .... I love my artwork . So much so whatever I buy I frame because the point of collecting my fav artists is to enjoy them everyday up on my walls. I think it’s completely irrelevant to put stuff in portfolios and boxes tucked away and if you do that you shouldn’t collect art it’s called hoarding .

 

 

 

I mostly agree. I’m the same way. Art is meant to be displayed like museums. They are works of art. Think storing them in portfolios takes the fun out of it. 
dont see the point of them sitting in boxes for months and years when they can be enjoyed by someone else. If a piece of my collection is taken off my art wall and stays off for a period of time, then I prefer selling it rather than storing it