Avenging Spiderman #9 0

[darkstar]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

I'm not. I'm just explaining reality.

Anybody who references DCP 26 when talking about previews like this only proves how little they know. DC called those bonus stories "previews" but they were full, unique stories rather than simply a few pages from the real issue printed in advance.

And reality is that Carol Danvers first appears as Captain Marvel in the Summer of Spider-Man Sampler - an actual comic book. This is no single interior image within the pages of a non-comic book, nor is it only a cover depiction on some preview mag. It is an actual comic with the character depicted on the cover accompanied by a text proclamation indicating her introduction combined with several pages of sequential art on the interior pages where she is shown in multiple panels across several pages in costume, with dialogue, and being addressed by name. It is a more substantial first appearance than countless other character we've seen throughout the history of comics where they've been introduced in a last panel teaser for the next issue. You want to take issue with a single visual depiction of a character being shown in a preview or advertisement as a first appearance ok, but this isn't that, so stop equating the two. 

[500Club]

9 hours ago, darkstar said:

10 hours ago, 500Club said:

 

Read it again.  I`m fine with it as a niche market.  I have contempt for the trend that suggests these things should be more.  As a self proclaimed `reader of comics`, you can probably understand my desire to lean toward substance.

145 slabbed copies of the Preacher Preview 

194 slabbed copies of Malibu Sun

168 slabbed copies of Dime Press 4

That is quite the niche market. Not all promo items are the same nor are they treated as such by the market. Most of these promo items that get touted don't have all the things going for them that I listed above regarding the Spider-Man sampler. Those things matter. A lot.

A year from now we can compare the value generated between 400 dollars worth of Avenging Spider-Man 9 purchased today (the slab the OP mentioned) and 400 dollars worth of Summer of Spider-Man Sampler, which is currently roughly around 20 dollars a copy. 

As I told ygogolak, the value argument isn’t an argument.  There is value there.  Happy to wave the red cape and step aside on that one.

It’s still a niche market, though.  You may not be aware of this, but there’s a much larger market outside of our insular chat board, and it dwarfs even the totality of the web and spec site denizens.  Those people, who shop at LCSs and shows, don’t really care much about items like these as collectibles.  They don’t ask for them and they rarely have them on want lists.  They will perk up if they have them and there’s money to be made, but thats about it.  I had a nice copy of Agents 6, with the 5 page WD preview in the back.  Took me 4 years to sell it at shows, and that was into the ultra-hot WD market circa seasons 1-4.  That’s a reflection of the lack of interest from the non chat board, spec site frequenting collectors.

[500Club]

5 hours ago, darkstar said:

And reality is that Carol Danvers first appears as Captain Marvel in the Summer of Spider-Man Sampler - an actual comic book This is no single interior image within the pages of a non-comic book, nor is it only a cover depiction on some preview mag. It is an actual comic with the character depicted on the cover accompanied by a text proclamation indicating her introduction combined with several pages of sequential art on the interior pages where she is shown in multiple panels across several pages in costume, with dialogue, and being addressed by name. It is a more substantial first appearance than countless other character we've seen throughout the history of comics where they've been introduced in a last panel teaser for the next issue. You want to take issue with a single visual depiction of a character being shown in a preview or advertisement as a first appearance ok, but this isn't that, so stop equating the two. 

SoSM isn’t an ‘actual comic book’.  It’s a promotional pamphlet in comic book shape.  Calling it an actual comic book is like calling a movie trailer ‘an actual movie’.

[darkstar]

6 hours ago, 500Club said:

SoSM isn’t an ‘actual comic book’.  It’s a promotional pamphlet in comic book shape.  Calling it an actual comic book is like calling a movie trailer ‘an actual movie’.

Instead of being pedantic you could recognize the point being made there is that the sampler fits perfectly within a comic book collectors collection which is important because there has been a hesitation on the part of collectors to collect first appearances that occur in formats outside of their regular sized comics. The sampler is not a treasury or a coloring book or a tpb or magazine or comic shop news or comics journal or an ashcan or a convention program or a novel or any of those other formats with varying dimensions and sizes that comic collectors shy away from because they don't fit with the rest of their collection. And yes it is a comic book with a UPC and everything. 

 

[fastballspecial]

7 hours ago, 500Club said:

17 hours ago, darkstar said:

17 hours ago, 500Club said:

 

Read it again.  I`m fine with it as a niche market.  I have contempt for the trend that suggests these things should be more.  As a self proclaimed `reader of comics`, you can probably understand my desire to lean toward substance.

145 slabbed copies of the Preacher Preview 

194 slabbed copies of Malibu Sun

168 slabbed copies of Dime Press 4

That is quite the niche market. Not all promo items are the same nor are they treated as such by the market. Most of these promo items that get touted don't have all the things going for them that I listed above regarding the Spider-Man sampler. Those things matter. A lot.

A year from now we can compare the value generated between 400 dollars worth of Avenging Spider-Man 9 purchased today (the slab the OP mentioned) and 400 dollars worth of Summer of Spider-Man Sampler, which is currently roughly around 20 dollars a copy. 

As I told ygogolak, the value argument isn’t an argument.  There is value there.  Happy to wave the red cape and step aside on that one.

It’s still a niche market, though.  You may not be aware of this, but there’s a much larger market outside of our insular chat board, and it dwarfs even the totality of the web and spec site denizens.  Those people, who shop at LCSs and shows, don’t really care much about items like these as collectibles.  They don’t ask for them and they rarely have them on want lists.  They will perk up if they have them and there’s money to be made, but thats about it.  I had a nice copy of Agents 6, with the 5 page WD preview in the back.  Took me 4 years to sell it at shows, and that was into the ultra-hot WD market circa seasons 1-4.  That’s a reflection of the lack of interest from the non chat board, spec site frequenting collectors.

You are correct on this, but again that was several years ago. The market has changed overall. I don't agree with it, but I am not going to pass a chance up on a book like this cheap. I will still be finding them for next to nothing for at least the next 6 months I would bet. 

We are arrogant here sometimes thinking we are the market when in fact we are just small growing portion. Its the mentality change that's causing the problem. This new collector base believes Hulk 180 is more valuable then Hulk 181 and so on. I have had to finally just embrace the view point as a seller and move on whether I agree with it or not.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by fastballspecial

[darkstar]

7 hours ago, 500Club said:

As I told ygogolak, the value argument isn’t an argument.  There is value there.  Happy to wave the red cape and step aside on that one.

It’s still a niche market, though.  You may not be aware of this, but there’s a much larger market outside of our insular chat board, and it dwarfs even the totality of the web and spec site denizens.  Those people, who shop at LCSs and shows, don’t really care much about items like these as collectibles.  They don’t ask for them and they rarely have them on want lists.  They will perk up if they have them and there’s money to be made, but thats about it.  I had a nice copy of Agents 6, with the 5 page WD preview in the back.  Took me 4 years to sell it at shows, and that was into the ultra-hot WD market circa seasons 1-4.  That’s a reflection of the lack of interest from the non chat board, spec site frequenting collectors.

Collectibles exist because of niche markets. 

Your story is anecdotal and means nothing. 

[darkstar]

14 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

I'm not. I'm just explaining reality.

Anybody who references DCP 26 when talking about previews like this only proves how little they know. DC called those bonus stories "previews" but they were full, unique stories rather than simply a few pages from the real issue printed in advance.

I wasn't aware the totality of a story was necessary in order to count a first appearance. You are aware that a very large percentage of comics do not contain an entire story, yes? Avenging Spider-Man 9 begins in media res and the story does not conclude on the final page. I'm not sure how you can assert that the sequential art in Avenging Spider-Man 9 is Danver's first appearance as Captain Marvel when the relevant panels and pages have been published previously.

[RockMyAmadeus]

18 hours ago, darkstar said:

145 slabbed copies of the Preacher Preview 

194 slabbed copies of Malibu Sun

168 slabbed copies of Dime Press 4

That is quite the niche market. Not all promo items are the same nor are they treated as such by the market. Most of these promo items that get touted don't have all the things going for them that I listed above regarding the Spider-Man sampler. Those things matter. A lot.

A year from now we can compare the value generated between 400 dollars worth of Avenging Spider-Man 9 purchased today (the slab the OP mentioned) and 400 dollars worth of Summer of Spider-Man Sampler, which is currently roughly around 20 dollars a copy. 

Darkstar, darkstar, darkstar! What has happened to me...er, I mean, you??

Don't go over to the darkside.

This "Summer of Spiderman"...does it feature ORIGINAL art and story not found anywhere else? Or is it just a preview of pages that appeared in Avenging Spiderman #9? If the former, it has legitimate value. If the latter...lame.

[RockMyAmadeus]

16 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

16 hours ago, darkstar said:

There is no need to be upset.

I'm not. I'm just explaining reality.

16 hours ago, darkstar said:

DC Comics Presents #26 says 

Anybody who references DCP 26 when talking about previews like this only proves how little they know. DC called those bonus stories "previews" but they were full, unique stories rather than simply a few pages from the real issue printed in advance.

This.

Did Mr. Ween hijack darkstar's account?

[RockMyAmadeus]

13 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

You can be mad all you want

Nobody's "mad" about anything. This is an unnecessary and contentious comment.

[RockMyAmadeus]

13 hours ago, darkstar said:

16 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

I'm not. I'm just explaining reality.

Anybody who references DCP 26 when talking about previews like this only proves how little they know. DC called those bonus stories "previews" but they were full, unique stories rather than simply a few pages from the real issue printed in advance.

And reality is that Carol Danvers first appears as Captain Marvel in the Summer of Spider-Man Sampler - an actual comic book. This is no single interior image within the pages of a non-comic book, nor is it only a cover depiction on some preview mag. It is an actual comic with the character depicted on the cover accompanied by a text proclamation indicating her introduction combined with several pages of sequential art on the interior pages where she is shown in multiple panels across several pages in costume, with dialogue, and being addressed by name. It is a more substantial first appearance than countless other character we've seen throughout the history of comics where they've been introduced in a last panel teaser for the next issue. You want to take issue with a single visual depiction of a character being shown in a preview or advertisement as a first appearance ok, but this isn't that, so stop equating the two. 

None of this is relevant if these are simply preview pages destined for another comic.

[500Club]

2 hours ago, darkstar said:

Instead of being pedantic you could recognize the point being made there is that the sampler fits perfectly within a comic book collectors collection which is important because there has been a hesitation on the part of collectors to collect first appearances that occur in formats outside of their regular sized comics. The sampler is not a treasury or a coloring book or a tpb or magazine or comic shop news or comics journal or an ashcan or a convention program or a novel or any of those other formats with varying dimensions and sizes that comic collectors shy away from because they don't fit with the rest of their collection. And yes it is a comic book with a UPC and everything.

 

I will recognize the point made about the format being comic book sized.  

But, no , it isn’t ‘a comic book’.   It’s, as advertised, a ‘sampler’.  You get the theatre, the popcorn, the seats and everything with the movie trailer, but it’s not a movie.

[fastballspecial]

51 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

14 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

You can be mad all you want

Nobody's "mad" about anything. This is an unnecessary and contentious comment.

Spare me your drama

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 minutes ago, fastballspecial said:

55 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

14 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

You can be mad all you want

Nobody's "mad" about anything. This is an unnecessary and contentious comment.

Spare me your drama

Don't deflect. You made an aggressive, contentious post towards someone that was unnecessary and inaccurate. You complain about others doing the same thing.

Pick one or the other. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I would recommend not saying things like "you can be mad all you want" if you're interested in civilized dialogue.

[fastballspecial]

8 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

15 minutes ago, fastballspecial said:

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

14 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

You can be mad all you want

Nobody's "mad" about anything. This is an unnecessary and contentious comment.

Spare me your drama

Don't deflect. You made an aggressive, contentious post towards someone that was unnecessary and inaccurate. You complain about others doing the same thing.

Pick one or the other. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I would recommend not saying things like "you can be mad all you want" if you're interested in civilized dialogue.

Your just baiting move on.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

11 minutes ago, 500Club said:

I will recognize the point made about the format being comic book sized.  

But, no , it isn’t ‘a comic book’.   It’s, as advertised, a ‘sampler’.  You get the theatre, the popcorn, the seats and everything with the movie trailer, but it’s not a movie.

Movie trailers contain...mostly...actual parts from the actual movie. And as fun as some of them are...they're still not the movie. 

A preview that is merely pages from an upcoming book is not a "first appearance." It's a preview of that first appearance.

If people want to collect them, by all means, they should knock themselves out. But trying to change 50+ years of collector consensus about what does, and what does not, constitute an actual appearance, and retroactively changing multiple first appearances to "previews" (regardless of format)...mainly for the twin goals of 1. convincing other people that what you have is worth the price you're asking, and 2. to feel like what you own has value...is disingenuous, at best, and downright fraudulent at worst.

Nothing wrong with people wanting to collect Marvel Age #97...it is, after, an "actual comic book"...but it is not, and never will be, the first appearance of Darkhawk, as intended by the publisher. That distinction belongs to Darkhawk #1. Same with the rest.

[500Club]

2 hours ago, darkstar said:

9 hours ago, 500Club said:

As I told ygogolak, the value argument isn’t an argument.  There is value there.  Happy to wave the red cape and step aside on that one.

It’s still a niche market, though.  You may not be aware of this, but there’s a much larger market outside of our insular chat board, and it dwarfs even the totality of the web and spec site denizens.  Those people, who shop at LCSs and shows, don’t really care much about items like these as collectibles.  They don’t ask for them and they rarely have them on want lists.  They will perk up if they have them and there’s money to be made, but thats about it.  I had a nice copy of Agents 6, with the 5 page WD preview in the back.  Took me 4 years to sell it at shows, and that was into the ultra-hot WD market circa seasons 1-4.  That’s a reflection of the lack of interest from the non chat board, spec site frequenting collectors.

Collectibles exist because of niche markets. 

 Your story is anecdotal and means nothing. 

Your first comment is just an obfuscating generalization, apropos of nothing.  It’s the debate equivalent of chaff.  In this case, we are looking at a niche market within a type of collectible.  The point that follows from that is that, while there is some value to these items, it’s a very small segment of the comic collecting population that values them, and that segment is fuelled by the tubthumping of spec sites.  On ‘main street’ these views haven’t really made inroads.

My story is anecdotal.  It doesn’t mean ‘nothing’.  It’s the strongest example I have of many similar.  In years of show dealing, I can count on one hand the requests I’ve had for Marvel Age, Previews, DC Who’s Who, assorted Image five page back of book previews, Marvel Now Point 1, etc, etc...    When Preacher got scorching hot two years ago, did our buyers want Preacher Preview?  Nope.  10:1 they wanted Preacher 1.  

I had a debate with MrMcKnowitall in the Water Cooler a couple of years ago - I’d dismissed something as anecdotal, and, he countered with the philosophical question  ‘how many anecdotes before you have evidence?’.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, fastballspecial said:

Your just baiting move on.

 

No one is "baiting" anything. If I were "baiting" you, I'd want further back and forth with you. I most certainly do not. 

You either want a civilized board, or you do not. Complaining about other people's provocative statements, while making your own such statements, makes this place an unpleasant place to be.

[fastballspecial]

6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

11 minutes ago, fastballspecial said:

Your just baiting move on.

 

No one is "baiting" anything. If I were "baiting" you, I'd want further back and forth with you. I most certainly do not. 

You either want a civilized board, or you do not. Complaining about other people's provocative statements, while making your own such statements, makes this place an unpleasant place to be.

You just want lecture me fine.  Point proven. Move on.

 

 

 

[500Club]

2 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

You are correct on this, but again that was several years ago. The market has changed overall. I don't agree with it, but I am not going to pass a chance up on a book like this cheap. I will still be finding them for next to nothing for at least the next 6 months I would bet. 

We are arrogant here sometimes thinking we are the market when in fact we are just small growing portion. Its the mentality change that's causing the problem. This new collector base believes Hulk 180 is more valuable then Hulk 181 and so on. I have had to finally just embrace the view point as a seller and move on whether I agree with it or not.

 

Hey!  That’s MY point. 

We aren’t the market.  We’re not even close.  We, including this board, other boards, and spec sites, are an echo chamber that magnifies the views of a small segment of the market.  In this case, we’ve magnified the perceived importance of promo items.  On ‘main street’ this line of thinking doesn’t hold sway.

In fact, because of this state of affairs, you’ll be able to find SoSM for next to nothing, as you say.  And, as for IH 180 vs 181, take a look at GPA data.  IH 181 has exploded.  IH 180 remains a secondary consideration.  As IH 181 in CGC 9.4 approaches 8K, I’m sure IH 180 will see some spillover buying, but IH 181 is still driving the bus.