Avenging Spiderman #9 0

[RockMyAmadeus]

What's the most famous example of a preview that isn't really a preview...?

Amazing Fantasy #15.

As the old, familiar story goes, Stan and maybe Steve and maybe Jack wanted to try something different, and Martin said "phsaw! No one will want a superhero that has the powers of a spider! That's too creepy!"

So, they put the character in an 8 page tryout in an about-to-be-cancelled mag, and you end up with the 3rd most popular superhero in the entire world.

Realize that that's something that they never did with any other character throughout the Silver Age. Spidey is completely unique in that regard. They either introduced a character in an ongoing anthology title....Journey Into Mystery, Tales To Astonish, Tales Of Suspense, Strange Tales...or they simply gave them their own book right out of the gate...FF, Hulk, X-Men, Daredevil. 

But Spidey was the only one to have his own "preview" in a cancelled title, to see if the character would get any reaction. If Amazing Fantasy #15, however, only contained pages from an upcoming Amazing Spiderman #1, to be published the next month....then Amazing Fantasy #15 wouldn't actually be Spidey's first appearance, and it wouldn't be worth nearly as much as it is.

So AF #15 WAS a preview...a tryout...of a concept and a character. It wasn't a preview of an upcoming book. That's the difference.

[I like pie]

I'm just here for the nerd fights.

[RockMyAmadeus]

[ygogolak]

21 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Movie trailers contain...mostly...actual parts from the actual movie. And as fun as some of them are...they're still not the movie. 

A preview that is merely pages from an upcoming book is not a "first appearance." It's a preview of that first appearance.

If people want to collect them, by all means, they should knock themselves out. But trying to change 50+ years of collector consensus about what does, and what does not, constitute an actual appearance, and retroactively changing multiple first appearances to "previews" (regardless of format)...mainly for the twin goals of 1. convincing other people that what you have is worth the price you're asking, and 2. to feel like what you own has value...is disingenuous, at best, and downright fraudulent at worst.

Nothing wrong with people wanting to collect Marvel Age #97...it is, after, an "actual comic book"...but it is not, and never will be, the first appearance of Darkhawk, as intended by the publisher. That distinction belongs to Darkhawk #1. Same with the rest.

  Says whom? You are not the authority on this subject and nobody else on here is either.

Is it the first time a character appears in a comic story? YES

If you want to make claims about books like FOOM (another one I forgot to mention earlier), than fine. But even 500Club agrees there is a market for things like that and people who believe that.

 

Also, where has Mr. Ween been?

Edited June 16, 2018 by ygogolak

[RockMyAmadeus]

11 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

32 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

A preview that is merely pages from an upcoming book is not a "first appearance." It's a preview of that first appearance.

 

  Says whom? You are not the authority on this subject and nobody else on here is either.

Is it the first time a character appears in a comic story? YES

If you want to make claims about books like FOOM (another one I forgot to mention earlier), than fine. But even 500Club agrees there is a market for things like that and people who believe that.



Says basic reason, common sense, and the entirety of the comic book collecting community, since the dawn of comic book fandom, because we know what the publishers' intentions were. 

Otherwise...Action Comics #12 would be called the first appearance of Batman, and not Detective Comics #27. Iron Fist #13 would be the first appearance of Sabretooth. And, if the cover of TTA #44, or X-Men #1, or Daredevil #4, or any of the other covers that Marvel previewed in their silver age books, then THOSE books would be the first appearances of Wasp, the X-Men, and the Purple Man, respectively. 

But they're not. Because comic book buyers...aka "the market"...has understood the intentions of the publishers, and even though many, many, MANY characters appeared in print PRIOR TO their first appearances, the market recognizes that those are merely previews....NOT actual appearances.

I didn't invent it...I merely repeat it. 

Nobody disagrees that there is a market for these things. Stating things with which no one disagrees does not a valid counterargument make.

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[ygogolak]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Says basic reason, common sense, and the entirety of the comic book collecting community, since the dawn of comic book fandom, because we know what the publishers' intentions were. 

Otherwise...Action Comics #12 would be called the first appearance of Batman, and not Detective Comics #27. Iron Fist #13 would be the first appearance of Sabretooth. And, if the cover of TTA #44, or X-Men #1, or Daredevil #4, or any of the other covers that Marvel previewed in their silver age books, then THOSE books would be the first appearances of Wasp, the X-Men, and the Purple Man, respectively. 

But they're not. Because comic book buyers...aka "the market"...has understood the intentions of the publishers, and even though many, many, MANY characters appeared in print PRIOR TO their first appearances, the market recognizes that those are merely previews....NOT actual appearances.

I didn't invent it...I merely repeat it. 

Nobody disagrees that there isn't a market for these things. Stating things with which no one disagrees does not a valid counterargument make.

 

Hmm, na. The market is different now than it was 10 years ago and every year before that. I'm not sure why some people try to hold onto the past as the almighty authority and not look to the future.

Check out the CGC label and sales of Ms. Marvel #17 2nd print and All-New Marvel Now Point One and get back to me. Or, since we are holding onto the past. Lets check old Hulk #180 labels vs. new ones.

[RockMyAmadeus]

To those who want to claim that a preview of pages from an upcoming book constitutes the real first appearance, relegating that upcoming book to the status of a "reprint" (because that is, in effect, what you're doing), I ask you this: What is the first appearance of Rick Grimes and the Walking Dead?

Is it Agents #6? Is it Capes #1? Or is it Walking Dead #1?

Agents #6 and Capes #1...which I *believe* were shipped on the same week...contain the first several pages of Walking Dead #1.

So, if Agents #6 and Capes #1 both contain identical material, and were shipped the same week...which one is the "real" first appearance?

And why aren't those books worth far more than WD #1...? 

[500Club]

9 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

  Says whom? You are not the authority on this subject and nobody else on here is either.

Is it the first time a character appears in a comic story? YES

If you want to make claims about books like FOOM (another one I forgot to mention earlier), than fine. But even 500Club agrees there is a market for things like that and people who believe that.

 

Also, where has Mr. Ween been?

Oh, yeah, make no bones about it, there’s a market for these things.  I actually think they’re quite cool.   I just tend to bristle when their importance is overstated.

As for the first time the character appears in a story?  Well, yeah, sorta...   But it’s a piece of a story, and it’s a piece from an actual, in continuity book.  You see similar in Previews and Image+.  Collectors in general still make the distinction, and still want the actual publication.

[ygogolak]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

To those who want to claim that a preview of pages from an upcoming book constitutes the real first appearance, relegating that upcoming book to the status of a "reprint" (because that is, in effect, what you're doing), I ask you this: What is the first appearance of Rick Grimes and the Walking Dead?

Is it Agents #6? Is it Capes #1? Or is it Walking Dead #1?

Agents #6 and Capes #1...which I *believe* were shipped on the same week...contain the first several pages of Walking Dead #1.

So, if Agents #6 and Capes #1 both contain identical material, and were shipped the same week...which one is the "real" first appearance?

And why aren't those books worth far more than WD #1...? 

Where have I heard this before? Hmmm, 2 pages ago?

Now you're confusing "value" and "first appearance".

[500Club]

7 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

Hmm, na. The market is different now than it was 10 years ago and every year before that. I'm not sure why some people try to hold onto the past as the almighty authority and not look to the future.

Check out the CGC label and sales of Ms. Marvel #17 2nd print and All-New Marvel Now Point One and get back to me. Or, since we are holding onto the past. Lets check old Hulk #180 labels vs. new ones.

No using CGC labels as any sort of authoritative source.  They tend to label using the ‘squeaky wheel’ effect, are opinion driven like us, and are inconsistent.

And, yes, the market changes, is different now than ten years ago, and there’s no point holding on to the past.   But things haven’t changed as much as this echo chamber would lead you to believe.   I’d look at this issue like a political party that had three percent of the vote ten years ago, and now has five percent.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

Hmm, na. The market is different now than it was 10 years ago and every year before that. I'm not sure why some people try to hold onto the past as the almighty authority and not look to the future.

Check out the CGC label and sales of Ms. Marvel #17 2nd print and All-New Marvel Now Point One and get back to me. Or, since we are holding onto the past. Lets check old Hulk #180 labels vs. new ones.

Hmm, yeah. Consensus means something. Just because a small, but very loud, very vocal, tiny minority of people want to pretend otherwise, trying to redefine what constitutes an appearance to "previews" of identical pages from an upcoming book isn't going to catch on...in the future...because it's opposed to common sense.

"This preview book is the first appearance of The Catlasher!" 

"It is?"

"Yes! See? Clearly, here is the Catlasher, depicted prominently, in a book that was published PRIOR TO Indefatigable Impman #378, which, for some strange reason, some people are calling the Catlasher's first appearance."

"But...isn't that preview book just a few pages taken from Indefatigable Impman #378....?"

"Yes, but as you can clearly see, this preview was printed BEFORE Indefatigable Impman #378!! Therefore, it is the REAL first appearance of the Catlasher!"

"Um...yeah, that's because it's a preview...it's literally the name of the thing you're holding: 'preview.' That means it's a view of the actual book before it comes out, to garner interest in that book...not to garner interest in the preview itself."

"You're not the authority! Catlasher is clearly printed here, so that's clearly his first appearance!!"

"ooook."

 

 

 

Catlasher & Indefatigable Impman are copyright 2018 RMA productions, Inc. All rights reserved.

 

 

[Lazyboy]

5 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

Where have I heard this before? Hmmm, 2 pages ago?

Now you're confusing "value" and "first appearance".

A preview is, by definition, an advertisement. The perfect equivalent has already been mentioned: a movie trailer.

Ads are not and have never been first appearances no matter how much a miniscule minority whines.

[500Club]

10 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

Now you're confusing "value" and "first appearance".

He’s using value as a yardstick of importance.  Don’t you agree it’s fair to say that if the market thought those promo WD pages were more important, or were seen by the market as true first appearances, prices would reflect that?

 

[ygogolak]

3 minutes ago, 500Club said:

No using CGC labels as any sort of authoritative source.  They tend to label using the ‘squeaky wheel’ effect, are opinion driven like us, and are inconsistent.

And, yes, the market changes, is different now than ten years ago, and there’s no point holding on to the past.   But things haven’t changed as much as this echo chamber would lead you to believe.   I’d look at this issue like a political party that had three percent of the vote ten years ago, and now has five percent.

Sorry, the Market uses CGC as the authority now. Much likes OPG was used in the past. CGC lables are very often flawed, changed, etc... but that's not what the masses see or know.
Which First Aliens do you own? Oh, better get both!

 

 

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Hmm, yeah. Consensus means something. Just because a small, but very loud, very vocal, tiny minority of people want to pretend otherwise, trying to redefine what constitutes an appearance to "previews" of identical pages from an upcoming book isn't going to catch on...in the future...because it's opposed to common sense.

"This preview book is the first appearance of The Catlasher!" 

"It is?"

"Yes! See? Clearly, here is the Catlasher, depicted prominently, in a book that was published PRIOR TO Indefatigable Impman #378, which, for some strange reason, some people are calling the Catlasher's first appearance."

"But...isn't that preview book just a few pages taken from Indefatigable Impman #378....?"

"Yes, but as you can clearly see, this preview was printed BEFORE Indefatigable Impman #378!! Therefore, it is the REAL first appearance of the Catlasher!"

"Um...yeah, that's because it's a preview...it's literally the name of the thing you're holding: 'preview.' That means it's a view of the actual book before it comes out, to garner interest in that book...not to garner interest in the preview itself."

"You're not the authority! Catlasher is clearly printed here, so that's clearly his first appearance!!"

"ooook."

 

 

 

Catlasher & Indefatigable Impman are copyright 2018 RMA productions, Inc. All rights reserved.

 

 

Where are your poll results of what the consensus thinks? I use sales. All of the books I mentioned so far have not problem selling. I guess the same 5 people are buying them all.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

11 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

To those who want to claim that a preview of pages from an upcoming book constitutes the real first appearance, relegating that upcoming book to the status of a "reprint" (because that is, in effect, what you're doing), I ask you this: What is the first appearance of Rick Grimes and the Walking Dead?

Is it Agents #6? Is it Capes #1? Or is it Walking Dead #1?

Agents #6 and Capes #1...which I *believe* were shipped on the same week...contain the first several pages of Walking Dead #1.

So, if Agents #6 and Capes #1 both contain identical material, and were shipped the same week...which one is the "real" first appearance?

And why aren't those books worth far more than WD #1...? 

Where have I heard this before? Hmmm, 2 pages ago?

Now you're confusing "value" and "first appearance".

No, I'm demonstrating demand. 

Value has nothing to do with determining fact. However...it does demonstrate demand, to a degree. If two items are otherwise identical, or close to identical, in supply....and one is worth far more than the other...there's a reason why. That reason is because one has something intrinsic about it that fuels greater demand...and thus, higher value.

Capes #1 only sold, in its first month (the same month as Walking Dead #1, October of 2003) 6,168 copies. That's a good 15% less, making Capes #1, in very, very broad terms, "less plentiful" than WD #1.

And yet, Capes #1 is worth a fraction of Walking Dead #1...because the collecting community, en masse, recognizes that Capes #1...and Agents #6...aren't "real" first appearances...it's just a preview. The value doesn't determine the first appearance...the first appearance determines the value.

[ygogolak]

5 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

A preview is, by definition, an advertisement. The perfect equivalent has already been mentioned: a movie trailer.

Ads are not and have never been first appearances no matter how much a miniscule minority whines.

2 minutes ago, 500Club said:

He’s using value as a yardstick of importance.  Don’t you agree it’s fair to say that if the market thought those promo WD pages were more important, or were seen by the market as true first appearances, prices would reflect that?

 

But, there is value. Those books have no value if it were not for the previews. They would be in dollar bins otherwise. Don't you, as a collector want the comic with the name and character right on the cover? Again Hulk 180 / 181.

When did we switch to talking about what the market constitutes as first appearance as determined by value?

 

[ygogolak]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

No, I'm demonstrating demand. 

Value has nothing to do with determining fact. However...it does demonstrate demand, to a degree. If two items are otherwise identical, or close to identical, in supply....and one is worth far more than the other...there's a reason why. That reason is because one has something intrinsic about it that fuels greater demand...and thus, higher value.

Capes #1 only sold, in its first month (the same month as Walking Dead #1, October of 2003) 6,168 copies. That's a good 15% less, making Capes #1, in very, very broad terms, "less plentiful" than WD #1.

And yet, Capes #1 is worth a fraction of Walking Dead #1...because the collecting community, en masse, recognizes that Capes #1...and Agents #6...aren't "real" first appearances...it's just a preview. The value doesn't determine the first appearance...the first appearance determines the value.

WOW

Value = supply / demand.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

Sorry, the Market uses CGC as the authority now. Much likes OPG was used in the past. CGC lables are very often flawed, changed, etc... but that's not what the masses see or know.
Which First Aliens do you own? Oh, better get both!

 

 

Where are your poll results of what the consensus thinks? I use sales. All of the books I mentioned so far have not problem selling. I guess the same 5 people are buying them all.

 

 

The Overstreet Price Guide, GPA, eBay, the late, great Comics Buyers Guide, All In Color For A Dime, Tales From The Database,the Krause Standard Catalog of Comic Books, Comichron, etc etc etc.

The situation with Aliens is not relevant here. Why? Most importantly, even if, in some bizarre twist, DHP #24 came out BEFORE Aliens #1...and I don't believe that happened...the material in DHP #24 is UNIQUE to DHP #24. It is not an exact reproduction of pages destined to see print in another book.

Publisher intentions matter.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

But, there is value. Those books have no value if it were not for the previews. They would be in dollar bins otherwise. Don't you, as a collector want the comic with the name and character right on the cover? Again Hulk 180 / 181.

When did we switch to talking about what the market constitutes as first appearance as determined by value?

"We" didn't.  Value doesn't determine a first appearance. A first appearance, on the other hand, determines value.

[500Club]

11 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

Sorry, the Market uses CGC as the authority now. Much likes OPG was used in the past. CGC lables are very often flawed, changed, etc... but that's not what the masses see or know.
Which First Aliens do you own? Oh, better get both.

.

Your point about what the masses see is important.  I still think you’re arguing for the masses you experience, though, which may be internet and spec site skewed.  I don’t get people at shows saying ‘well, that’s what the CGC label says’ or ‘let’s check the label’.  They don’t say, ‘well, I better consider IH 180 more important, given the label’.

My perspective comes from setting up at 8-12 shows a year, and dealing with the LCS and show crowds.