Avenging Spiderman #9 0

[MadGenius]

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Is the story in it original, not printed anywhere else?

The Ms. Marvel story was not reprinted in any other comic. It only appears in this issue and is collected later on for the HC/TPBs. Is ANMN Point One a promotional comic meant to hype up Marvel's new releases of the time? Yes. Is it a preview by definition? No.

Edited June 20, 2018 by MadGenius

[MadGenius]

And sometimes a preview isn't really a preview. For example, Planetary Preview in Gen13 #33 and C-23 #6 pre-dates Planetary #1. However, the "preview" in the Gen13 and C-23 books isn't a preview at all, but an original story that was not featured in the subsequent Planetary #1. Gen13 #33 and C-23 #6 is the 1st appearance of Planetary by any definition. CGC claims it is Planetary #1 which is wrong wrong wrong.

[ygogolak]

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Is the story in it original, not printed anywhere else?

I can't say for certain because it's totally out of context of where the first issue starts. In the ANMNPO she is Ms. Marvel. However, issue #1 is where is shows her first changing into Ms. Marvel. So, ANMNPO takes place after issue #1.. It's been a while since I've read that series. Good story.

But, let's not forget:

On 6/16/2018 at 1:57 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

The Overstreet Price Guide, GPA, eBay, the late, great Comics Buyers Guide, All In Color For A Dime, Tales From The Database,the Krause Standard Catalog of Comic Books, Comichron, etc etc etc.

The situation with Aliens is not relevant here. Why? Most importantly, even if, in some bizarre twist, DHP #24 came out BEFORE Aliens #1...and I don't believe that happened...the material in DHP #24 is UNIQUE to DHP #24. It is not an exact reproduction of pages destined to see print in another book.

Publisher intentions matter.

 

Again, is this a comic meant to drum-up interest for these ongoing series. It's only 8 pages long.

Edited June 20, 2018 by ygogolak

[ygogolak]

1 hour ago, MadGenius said:

And sometimes a preview isn't really a preview. For example, Planetary Preview in Gen13 #33 and C-23 #6 pre-dates Planetary #1. However, the "preview" in the Gen13 and C-23 books isn't a preview at all, but an original story that was not featured in the subsequent Planetary #1. Gen13 #33 and C-23 #6 is the 1st appearance of Planetary by any definition. CGC claims it is Planetary #1 which is wrong wrong wrong.

Yup, not surprising.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, ygogolak said:

I can't say for certain because it's totally out of context of where the first issue starts. In the ANMNPO she is Ms. Marvel. However, issue #1 is where is shows her first changing into Ms. Marvel. So, ANMNPO takes place after issue #1.. It's been a while since I've read that series. Good story.

But, let's not forget:

Again, is this a comic meant to drum-up interest for these ongoing series. It's only 8 pages long.

There is no inconsistency here.

If the story is original...if it's not merely pages taken from an upcoming publication...then it's legitimate to call such a first appearance an actual first appearance.

It does not matter IN THAT VERY SPECIFIC CASE if it is a comic meant to "drum-up interest" for these ongoing stories.

The Spiderman story in Amazing Fantasy #15...? Preview of a concept, rather than actual material from ASM. 8 pages long. Meant to "drum-up interest" in an ongoing series. Totally original story & art. First actual appearance of Spider-man.

The 5 pages of Walking Dead in Capes #1 and Agents #6? Pages taken directly from the forthcoming first issue of Walking Dead #1. Not original in any way. Not first actual appearance of Walking Dead. 

Again...didn't make up these rules, just report them.

Edited June 20, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus
I really hate not being able to hide edits.

[ygogolak]

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There is no inconsistency here.

If the story is original...if it's not merely pages taken from an upcoming publication...then it's legitimate to call such a first appearance an actual first appearance.

It does not matter IN THAT VERY SPECIFIC CASE if it is a comic meant to "drum-up interest" for these ongoing stories.

The Spiderman story in Amazing Fantasy #15...? Preview of a concept, rather than actual material from ASM. 8 pages long. Meant to "drum-up interest" in an ongoing series. Totally original story & art. First actual appearance of Spider-man.

The 5 pages of Walking Dead in Capes #1 and Agents #6? Pages taken directly from the forthcoming first issue of Walking Dead #1. Not original in any way. Not first actual appearance of Walking Dead. 

Again...didn't make up these rules, just report them.

Sure, whatever you say.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, ygogolak said:

4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

There is no inconsistency here.

If the story is original...if it's not merely pages taken from an upcoming publication...then it's legitimate to call such a first appearance an actual first appearance.

It does not matter IN THAT VERY SPECIFIC CASE if it is a comic meant to "drum-up interest" for these ongoing stories.

The Spiderman story in Amazing Fantasy #15...? Preview of a concept, rather than actual material from ASM. 8 pages long. Meant to "drum-up interest" in an ongoing series. Totally original story & art. First actual appearance of Spider-man.

The 5 pages of Walking Dead in Capes #1 and Agents #6? Pages taken directly from the forthcoming first issue of Walking Dead #1. Not original in any way. Not first actual appearance of Walking Dead. 

Again...didn't make up these rules, just report them.

Sure, whatever you say.

Great, glad we can agree...

[divad]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

If the story is original...if it's not merely pages taken from an upcoming publication...then it's legitimate to call such a first appearance an actual first appearance.

It does not matter IN THAT VERY SPECIFIC CASE if it is a comic meant to "drum-up interest" for these ongoing stories.

The Spiderman story in Amazing Fantasy #15...? Preview of a concept, rather than actual material from ASM. 8 pages long. Meant to "drum-up interest" in an ongoing series. Totally original story & art. First actual appearance of Spider-man.

The 5 pages of Walking Dead in Capes #1 and Agents #6? Pages taken directly from the forthcoming first issue of Walking Dead #1. Not original in any way. Not first actual appearance of Walking Dead. 

Again...didn't make up these rules, just report them.

 What about The Preacher Preview then? (6 Pages taken directly from the forthcoming first issue of The Preacher).

The Market has spoken on that one. (Just another exception?)

[500Club]

It's probably going too far to say something is a hard and fast rule - there's always exceptions.  At most, any 'rule' is the prevailing generalization.

Lately there's been so many ambiguous cases (n.b. K Khan) that trying to impose rules is like herding cats.

[ygogolak]

20 minutes ago, 500Club said:

It's probably going too far to say something is a hard and fast rule - there's always exceptions.  At most, any 'rule' is the prevailing generalization.

Lately there's been so many ambiguous cases (n.b. K Khan) that trying to impose rules is like herding cats.

Right, that was my original point as to 10-15 years ago and further back there weren't all of these previews and prelude publishing that have muddied things up. With Kahn I could make a case for any of 4 or 5 issues.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, divad said:

 What about The Preacher Preview then? (6 Pages taken directly from the forthcoming first issue of The Preacher).

The Market has spoken on that one. (Just another exception?)

What about it? You quoted the post which has the explanation. The pages are from Preacher #1, and aren't original to the Preacher Preview. Therefore...not a first appearance.

Just another exception to what? Value doesn't determine anything but demand against supply.

The first appearance of Jesse Custer, Tulip, and Cassidy is Preacher #1. "The Market" has spoken...? Yeah, it's said "Preacher Preview is a hell of a lot scarcer than Preacher #1, so if I want it, I'll have to pony up the cash." 

That's all it says, all it ever will say, and all it ever CAN say. "More valuable" doesn't mean anything other than that.

Edited June 20, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, 500Club said:

It's probably going too far to say something is a hard and fast rule - there's always exceptions.  At most, any 'rule' is the prevailing generalization.

Lately there's been so many ambiguous cases (n.b. K Khan) that trying to impose rules is like herding cats.

The OPG imposes all sorts of rules, front cover to back.

Just sayin'....

Even a "glossary" is an imposition of rules, after all.

Can you name any exceptions...any at all...to the originality concept...? 

You know, where a story has appeared that was entirely original in comic book format (ie, not a magazine that was later reprinted into comic book form), that is NOT considered a "first appearance" if the story contained appearances by characters that had never appeared before...?

It's fairly straightforward. Original story and art that contains an appearance by characters not seen before - first appearance. Not original, destined to be printed somewhere else - not first appearance. 

All the "muddling" doesn't change any of that. You put the books in question in publication order, and find the original work. DONE. That's the first appearance.

Edited June 20, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[divad]

6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

What about it? You quoted the post which has the explanation. The pages are from Preacher #1, and aren't original to the Preacher Preview. Therefore...not a first appearance.

Just another exception to what? Value doesn't determine anything but demand against supply.

The first appearance of Jesse Custer, Tulip, and Cassidy is Preacher #1. "The Market" has spoken...? Yeah, it's said "Preacher Preview is a hell of a lot scarcer than Preacher #1, so if I want it, I'll have to pony up the cash." 

That's all it says, all it every will say, and all it ever CAN say. "More valuable" doesn't mean anything other than that.

Just a softball for you to hit out of the park.

[Juggernaut]

I have mentioned this before under my old juggernaut account.   The definition of first appearance needs to change or expand on the following listed below. 

1. Preview

2. Ad

3. Cameo

4. Predates

5. Cover Appearance

 

[500Club]

50 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

3 hours ago, 500Club said:

It's probably going too far to say something is a hard and fast rule - there's always exceptions.  At most, any 'rule' is the prevailing generalization.

Lately there's been so many ambiguous cases (n.b. K Khan) that trying to impose rules is like herding cats.

The OPG imposes all sorts of rules, front cover to back.

Just sayin'....

Even a "glossary" is an imposition of rules, after all.

Can you name any exceptions...any at all...to the originality concept...? 

You know, where a story has appeared that was entirely original in comic book format (ie, not a magazine that was later reprinted into comic book form), that is NOT considered a "first appearance" if the story contained appearances by characters that had never appeared before...?

It's fairly straightforward. Original story and art that contains an appearance by characters not seen before - first appearance. Not original, destined to be printed somewhere else - not first appearance. 

All the "muddling" doesn't change any of that. You put the books in question in publication order, and find the original work. DONE. That's the first appearance.

I'm commenting more from the standpoint of the functional definition of first appearance, which tends to be how the market bandies about the expression 'first appearance'.  IH 180 is Wolverine's first appearance, but colloquially 181 is often called the 'first appearance'.  Of course, it's not the literal first appearance, but we've essentially co-opted the term over time to mean 'most important introduction issue.'

Happy to agree with your rule if we're taking a literal approach.

[Lazyboy]

35 minutes ago, Juggernaut said:

I have mentioned this before under my old juggernaut account.   The definition of first appearance needs to change or expand on the following listed below. 

1. Preview

2. Ad

3. Cameo

4. Predates

5. Cover Appearance

 

No, it doesn't. Ads are ads (and previews are a type of ad), covers are covers, and there's no such thing as a cameo of a new character. I don't know what #4 is supposed to mean.

You also forgot character bios, which are occasionally published before the character appears in a story.

The majority of characters have a straightforward first appearance in which they appear on multiple pages and are actually part of the story. However, because comics (that are relevant to this discussion) are serialized fiction, characters fairly often only appear briefly in an issue, most often as a lead-in to/pseudo-ad for the story which follows in the next issue or a crossover issue. When that appearance is their first, the arguments start.

[Juggernaut]

We wouldn't be talking about it if everything was straightforward. I don't want it to change but it has too. It is starting to confuse everyone especially new individuals to the hobby.

Example of #4 is Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 (Gambit cameo) Predates Uncanny X-Men #266 (1st Appearance of Gambit) / Avenging Spider-Man #9 (1st Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel) Predates Captain Marvel #1 (Note: Chronologically Captain Marvel #1 (2012) is first or the beginning of the story but was released after Avenging Spider-Man #9)

Above are 2 perfect examples on why some definitions (1st Appearance and/or related) need to be expanded or changed. 

Make it clear to everyone with very little wiggle room for interpretation. For example: Ads are advertising .......... and cannot be a 1st appearance of a character as it not presented in the serialized or subsequent story in the form of a comic strip / Previews are a preview of a story ........ but can be 1st appearance of a character if the preview is an original story not reprinted or retold in the subsequent story / Cover Appearance is the appearance of character on the cover ..... and can be the 1st appearance of a character as the cover is presented as part of the story

[fastballspecial]

27 minutes ago, Juggernaut said:

We wouldn't be talking about it if everything was straightforward. I don't want it to change but it has too. It is starting to confuse everyone especially new individuals to the hobby.

Example of #4 is Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 (Gambit cameo) Predates Uncanny X-Men #266 (1st Appearance of Gambit) / Avenging Spider-Man #9 (1st Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel) Predates Captain Marvel #1 (Note: Chronologically Captain Marvel #1 (2012) is first or the beginning of the story but was released after Avenging Spider-Man #9)

Above are 2 perfect examples on why some definitions (1st Appearance and/or related) need to be expanded or changed. 

Make it clear to everyone with very little wiggle room for interpretation. For example: Ads are advertising .......... and cannot be a 1st appearance of a character as it not presented in the serialized or subsequent story in the form of a comic strip / Previews are a preview of a story ........ but can be 1st appearance of a character if the preview is an original story not reprinted or retold in the subsequent story / Cover Appearance is the appearance of character on the cover ..... and can be the 1st appearance of a character as the cover is presented as part of the story

I agree it may be years before it happens, but unless the new collector base panics and leaves the market after the movies are done I look for it to go that way.

Good to see ya BTW

[Lazyboy]

29 minutes ago, Juggernaut said:

We wouldn't be talking about it if everything was straightforward. I don't want it to change but it has too. It is starting to confuse everyone especially new individuals to the hobby.

Example of #4 is Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 (Gambit cameo) Predates Uncanny X-Men #266 (1st Appearance of Gambit) / Avenging Spider-Man #9 (1st Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel) Predates Captain Marvel #1 (Note: Chronologically Captain Marvel #1 (2012) is first or the beginning of the story but was released after Avenging Spider-Man #9)

Above are 2 perfect examples on why some definitions (1st Appearance and/or related) need to be expanded or changed. 

Ah, you meant when the story events are published out of sequence. While I agree that some people seem to have trouble with that, only release dates actually matter when defining firsts and that is already established, otherwise a ton of flashbacks would be acknowledged as first appearances.

29 minutes ago, Juggernaut said:

Make it clear to everyone with very little wiggle room for interpretation. For example: Ads are advertising .......... and cannot be a 1st appearance of a character as it not presented in the serialized or subsequent story in the form of a comic strip / Previews are a preview of a story ........ but can be 1st appearance of a character if the preview is an original story not reprinted or retold in the subsequent story

For the purposes of this discussion, a preview is only pages from an upcoming issue that were published in advance as an advertisement, not anything that was called a preview but is really more of a prelude.

29 minutes ago, Juggernaut said:

Cover Appearance is the appearance of character on the cover ..... and can be the 1st appearance of a character as the cover is presented as part of the story

Not again! time warps. How far back did I travel this time?

I can't agree with covers being first appearances, especially in the age of variants.

[Juggernaut]

11 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Ah, you meant when the story events are published out of sequence. While I agree that some people seem to have trouble with that, only release dates actually matter when defining firsts and that is already established, otherwise a ton of flashbacks would be acknowledged as first appearances.

For the purposes of this discussion, a preview is only pages from an upcoming issue that were published in advance as an advertisement, not anything that was called a preview but is really more of a prelude.

Not again! time warps. How far back did I travel this time?

I can't agree with covers being first appearances, especially in the age of variants.

Like your definition of preview better. I was just trying to give an example. Hopefully, an overstreet advisor uses it to define previews.

Sorry but it has been established a very long time ago that covers are part of the story. 1st appearance of a character (on the cover only) goes as far back as the Platinum age.  I agree with you that covers shouldn't be 1st appearances but I can't argue against 100 years of fact and consensus amongst comic book historians. Ultimately, comic book covers can be the 1st appearance of a character as it is part of the story.