Long read - Story of how I lost a DWJ commission and so much more. 2 2

[Rick2you2]

2 hours ago, comicwiz said:

Especially when you've already sent money. Sorry, a refund after waiting that long doesn't fly with me as a resolution, if anything it's insulting. But then again, I formed this opinion around the one thing I haven't completely understood (and it could be part of the way the story was told) but how did it happen that he was expecting it for C2E2 and it didn't meet that deadline? Was it a misunderstanding? I think the rest devolves from an expectation of it not being ready when it said it would be ready, and to add insult, it then carried over for months.

Taking the refund may not be a happy solution, but it's the best you can realistically expect. If the artist hasn't done what he is supposed to do, he isn't going to do it later, and certainly not with a "bump up" in size or complexity.

If you aren't happy with an artist, post it. There is another website with a thread containing recommended or not-recommended artists. 

[ESeffinga]

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

I'm sorrry to say this, but I think you have to take a share of the blame for this failure. Yes, some of the most creative artists can be the busiest, and they need the most time. But there comes a point where delay smacks of fraud: the artist was never going to get around to it.

If an artist is going on a 1-2 year mark, and he wasn't in the hospital or had some other horrible trauma, you should have given him a firm date and told him if he didn't meet it, you wanted your money back. Allow a little slippage (1-2 weeks), and demand your money back, in writing. And if you don't get it, you still have some options. One is to complain here or in some other forums. Another is to go to the website of the state where the artist is located, get a small claims court complaint form (I'm guessing the commission falls within that range), fill it in, send in a check and sue him. That should get a response. If not, the odds are high he will not go to court and you will get a default against him. Then send him the judgment and tell him to pay. That ought to take care of it. If not, you still have some options which depend on the circumstances. 

I will bend over pretty far for a person who I think is trying, but I won't take from anyone, no matter how "creative" and "brilliant" they are. 

I’m glad you are party of all the pertinent details on what transpired. Must be a great gift. Maybe even your superpower?

 

[SquareChaos]

3 hours ago, comicwiz said:

Especially when you've already sent money. Sorry, a refund after waiting that long doesn't fly with me as a resolution, if anything it's insulting. But then again, I formed this opinion around the one thing I haven't completely understood (and it could be part of the way the story was told) but how did it happen that he was expecting it for C2E2 and it didn't meet that deadline? Was it a misunderstanding? I think the rest devolves from an expectation of it not being ready when it said it would be ready, and to add insult, it then carried over for months.

I agree and disagree - more communication from Felix once the (expected? agreed upon?) delivery date wasn't going to be met would be nice. But even considering that, an angry email demanding more than was originally agreed upon is hardly the way to go. And don't forget that we don't really know what this email said, so I'm not going to judge Felix for cancelling the deal because of it. And I don't know about OP, but I recall when I commissioned my piece, Felix told me that I could request a full refund if it wasn't completed by the date in question - as I said, I had no real interest in doing that, I just wanted what we'd agreed to. I personally didn't mind the extra time it took, I just wanted to know what was going on, and once I reached out, I never once felt like I was getting the run around.

 

Anyway, like I said, I think for a primarily one man show, Felix communicates really well. Certainly among the best of the small number of professional reps and dealers I've actually purchased from, but what business doesn't have room for improvement somewhere? If I had to guess, I'd imagine a lot of people don't care if three or four months go by with no word of their commission - partially because this is OA we're talking about, and as such people will come out of the woodwork to boast that "... three or four months to wait on a commission is nothing, let me tell you about the time...." - so it is likely just more efficient to spend time responding to people who inquiry. Also... lets not forget that Felix is managing artists - I imagine it may sometimes be a bit like wrangling cats 

[SquareChaos]

57 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

I’m glad you are party of all the pertinent details on what transpired. Must be a great gift. Maybe even your superpower?

 

I think most of us - but not all - have a point where we want to hold people accountable for doing what they said they'd do. Especially if money has already changed hands. Artist or otherwise. I know I'm held accountable every day, I don't think I'd deserve an exemption to that if I had artistic talent, and I think it is clear from the tone of your story that you do not think an exemption is warranted either. I think you just face it in a different, perhaps less confrontational way. I fall somewhere in the middle, I think if you badger someone that owes you something, even if you're without a doubt in the right, what you're likely to be delivered if you're delivered anything is likely not worth the confrontation, and certainly likely not worth whatever you originally paid.

 

My personal take on it though... once I reached the point of writing it off as a lost cause, I'd want others to know so they could avoid the burn I'd suffered if at all possible.

[SquareChaos]

3 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Seems to me there’s room for an enterprising art rep to spend some money on an attorney to develop a standard commission art contract. 

Also, if you are repping an artist, you are legally on the hook if the artist doesn’t deliver. If you use PayPal, for example, you can use their refund/fraud procedure if you feel like things are not getting done. 

I would never pay an artist with a cash or check. Only PayPal or a credit card, where you have a third party intermediary that can step in if you have a dispute. 

But, as I said, I don’t do commissions. 

A great deal of the OA community appears to run on reputation, something I found odd once I started to interact around even just the edges of it. Especially considering how much money sometimes changes hands. I guess for a long time it had been small enough to do so? 

 

Anyway, I'm not sure how I'd feel about having to sign some boilerplate agreement on a $500 commission.

[ESeffinga]

I never mentioned accountability or what I did or didn’t do in each of the the various cases I hinted at, or how each of them was individually approached. Or who all I alerted to these actions.  

For some reason people really want to put words/thoughts/ideas in my mouth today... sheesh!

 

For what it’s worth, you and I share the same thoughts on the matter based on what you’ve written here, and also fwiw, I’ve shared most of these stories with the community several times over. so... whatever.

 

 

[SquareChaos]

Just now, ESeffinga said:

I never mentioned accountability or what I did or didn’t do in each of the the various cases I hinted at, or how each of them was individually approached. Or who all I alerted to these actions.  

For some reason people really want to put words/thoughts/ideas in my mouth today... sheesh!

 

For what it’s worth, you and I share the same thoughts on the matter based on what you’ve written here, and also fwiw, I’ve shared most of these stories with the community several times over. so... whatever.

 

 

Why are you reacting so defensively? Your story clearly shows an expectation of accountability on the commission you speak of, that is all I'm referring to. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just responding to what you wrote in an attempt to communicate... hopefully the reason most of us are here.

 

[gumbydarnit]

Mike, appreciate how you take ownership of your missteps. 

I believe a lot of people think being an artist rep would be cool... for those people read this thread. One can only imagine how difficult it must be to keep the commission train on the tracks, especially when you rep a number of artists and have a large number of requests in the queue.

 

[Rick2you2]

10 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

I’m glad you are party of all the pertinent details on what transpired. Must be a great gift. Maybe even your superpower?

 

Don't need one to consider a 1-2 year wait on a commission to be too long without a terrific reason. Artists are professonals who should treat their clients that way, just like they expect to be treated that way.

And when it comes to how legal matters proceed, I have a sustantial amount of expertise on ithe subject. 

[Blastaar]

Yes. You were in the wrong but be glad you didn't end up getting the commission. You would assosiate it with a bad situation every time you looked at it. I always pay all upront, give an idea of what I want but lead with I trust your artisistic eye, because that's what you are paying for. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Blastaar

[comix4fun]

I think another valuable lesson you can take from this experience is to be discerning from whom you seek advice. 

There are friends who are wonderfully supportive in a "gas on the fire" kind of way, which may feel cathartic and satisfying in the moment but never really considers the "then what" aspects of that type of chosen style of interaction. 

There are also friends who will help you weigh a measured response, or provide potential alternative actions to take, never losing sight or focus of the real goal of obtaining completing the deal and getting the artwork. 

Choosing who you could potentially use as a sounding board to resolving this type of issue is pretty important. Almost anyone is capable of getting worked up and going for the pitchforks and torches. The ones who can really empathize with you and really help you towards a positive conclusion are far more rare. 

 

And, yes, as many have said a few months overdue is (in the grand perspective of commission collecting) more of a rounding error than a serious problem. That's especially true when you're dealing with someone who's proven repeatedly and without fail as a person who always communicates quickly and responsibly. Given the chance, and with some better advice from others, all of this could have been avoided. I think you're already aware of that though. 

 

 

[eewwnuk]

expectations, communication, reputation, price, and method of payment all factor into how patient I am with a commission experience.  seems like you were uncomfortable with the experience from the beginning so a refund was probably best for all.  leniency with commissions sometimes results in good results but can also result in a lot of headaches.

Edited June 18, 2018 by eewwnuk

[mikerb22231]

Hi everyone - just wanted to mention that I've read all the comments and I appreciate the kind words and honest reactions to my post.  I've had a weekend to reflect, I was pretty bummed out about it all but I'm ok now.  Part of why I'm ok is that both Felix and Daniel have responded to me via social media and have excepted my apology, and we are moving on.  My refund will be going towards travel money for NYCC and a convention sketch from DWJ if I'm lucky.  Weird if it ends up like that... full circle. 

[PhilipB2k17]

On 6/17/2018 at 11:27 AM, SquareChaos said:

A great deal of the OA community appears to run on reputation, something I found odd once I started to interact around even just the edges of it. Especially considering how much money sometimes changes hands. I guess for a long time it had been small enough to do so? 

 

Anyway, I'm not sure how I'd feel about having to sign some boilerplate agreement on a $500 commission.

Most contract are boiler plate. An art commission one would have negotiated terms like every other contract. Not just price, but contebt, progress reports, time limit, etc. 

[SquareChaos]

53 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Most contract are boiler plate. An art commission one would have negotiated terms like every other contract. Not just price, but contebt, progress reports, time limit, etc. 

Yes, I know what a contract is. 

 

I think the more telling question is why would an artist or their rep need to have such a thing? I'm pretty sure most of Felix's artist's commission lists fill up within a day or two as soon as they're opened, and I don't believe there is any negotiation in pricing involved so it seems like that side of the equation already holds all of the cards.

[PhilipB2k17]

8 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

Yes, I know what a contract is. 

 

I think the more telling question is why would an artist or their rep need to have such a thing? I'm pretty sure most of Felix's artist's commission lists fill up within a day or two as soon as they're opened, and I don't believe there is any negotiation in pricing involved so it seems like that side of the equation already holds all of the cards.

Well that’s a different issue. I see plenty of complaints about artist commissions; enough to know that having a written contract might alleviate some of the problem. 

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Well that’s a different issue. I see plenty of complaints about artist commissions; enough to know that having a written contract might alleviate some of the problem. 

The good part about a contract which is in writing is that it sets the ground rules.

For examples of terms:

(1) The buyer should [or should not] expect a preliminary layout, of which the seller/artist will offer no more than 3 after final communications with buyer on the general scope of the commission, unless one or more layouts fail to meet the initial criteria set by buyer during initial discussions. In that event, to the extent a layout is rejected, the seller will furnish a subsititute layout.

(2) The seller will not proceed with the final commissioned piece based on the layout selected by buyer without getting final written approval. The final layout shall adhere to the selected preliminary layout, except to the extent that the buyer requires specific changes within the overall preliminary layout that the seller agrees are realistic and within the general layout. 

(3) The seller will complete the work within ____ days after approval of the preliminary layout, unless a reasonable extension of time is needed by the seller for one or more of the following reasons:

(4) Even if the seller is entitled to a reasonable extension of time, the buyer shall be entitled to cancel the contract and receive a full refund if the commissioned piece, prepared in a manner which is a fair equivalent of the seller's comparable commissioned work, is not recieved by the buyer within ____ days.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Rick2you2

[PhilipB2k17]

On 6/25/2018 at 7:25 AM, Rick2you2 said:

The good part about a contract which is in writing is that it sets the ground rules.

For examples of terms:

(1) The buyer should [or should not] expect a preliminary layout, of which the seller/artist will offer no more than 3 after final communications with buyer on the general scope of the commission, unless one or more layouts fail to meet the initial criteria set by buyer during initial discussions. In that event, to the extent a layout is rejected, the seller will furnish a subsititute layout.

(2) The seller will not proceed with the final commissioned piece based on the layout selected by buyer without getting final written approval. The final layout shall adhere to the selected preliminary layout, except to the extent that the buyer requires specific changes within the overall preliminary layout that the seller agrees are realistic and within the general layout. 

(3) The seller will complete the work within ____ days after approval of the preliminary layout, unless a reasonable extension of time is needed by the seller for one or more of the following reasons:

(4) Even if the seller is entitled to a reasonable extension of time, the buyer shall be entitled to cancel the contract and receive a full refund if the commissioned piece, prepared in a manner which is a fair equivalent of the seller's comparable commissioned work, is not recieved by the buyer within ____ days.

 

 

There are commissioned art contract examples on the internets. One of the issues they bring up is who owns the copyright to the piece. Generally, the artist retains it. 

[Rick2you2]

8 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

There are commissioned art contract examples on the internets. One of the issues they bring up is who owns the copyright to the piece. Generally, the artist retains it. 

The artist retains the copyright to the picture, so he can re-use it if he wants to do so elsewhere. The artist's drawing of an image, however, is probably a copyright violation, if it is something like Wolverine, where Marvel would hold the copyright. 

[alxjhnsn]

29 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

The artist retains the copyright to the picture, so he can re-use it if he wants to do so elsewhere. The artist's drawing of an image, however, is probably a copyright violation, if it is something like Wolverine, where Marvel would hold the copyright. 

Re: The artist's drawing of an image, however, is probably a copyright violation, if it is something like Wolverine, where Marvel would hold the copyright

I'm a little pedantic so here goes my simplified copyright vs. trademark explanation (I can't stop myself).

• Copyright - right to make copies
• Trademark - right to use a symbol (words, image, design, whatever) as a means to identify the seller and the goods

The artist owns the copyright to whatever she draws unless she specifically sells it. It may or may not be protected by Trademark.

A few use cases:

1. If the artist copies a work, e.g., a published cover, exactly. In this case, he could be (probably is) violating the copyright to that image. The odds are the publisher holds those right. This can occur even if he drew the original because he probably assigned his rights to the publisher.
2. If the artist creates a new image with a character created by someone else, e.g., a commission for me featuring Superman. In this case, the Superman image and especially his S-shield are trademarked. Though he would still own the copyright to the image, he might be (probably is) violating the trademark of the character owner, e.g., DC. 
3. If the artist creates an new image without using the Intellectual Property of others, she will own the copyright and have the option of trademarking the image or portions of it.

The length of a copyright to a work is set by law.

The length of time that  a Trademark remains active/in force depends on its being in regular use and the owner enforcing her rights. Coca Cola hires people to go to restaurants to ensure that when an order is place for "Coke" they get a Coca Cola; hence, "No Coke, Pepsi." You will see DC and Marvel revive and repurpose trademarked titles to keep the trademarks enforceable.

 

The gist of the above is your sentence should read:

 

Quote

The artist retains the copyright to the picture, so he can re-use it if he wants to do so elsewhere. The artist's drawing of an image, however, is probably a trademark violation, if it is something like Wolverine, where Marvel would hold the trademark for Wolverines image and symbols.

 

Edited June 27, 2018 by alxjhnsn