Long read - Story of how I lost a DWJ commission and so much more. 2 2

[Will_K]

Getting a little off track here...

2 hours ago, alxjhnsn said:

The artist owns the copyright to whatever she draws unless she specifically sells it. It may or may not be protected by Trademark. 

Joe Staton has a Justice Society print that reads:
TM & (c) 2016 DC Comics Inc Used by permission

I asked Joe if he REALLY has permission.  He said that in fact he has a letter from DC that gives him permission to draw their characters.  I don't think it's limited to a specific list of DC characters but... there you go.  This was the first instance I've heard of an artist actually having "permission" to draw copyrighted characters.

Nick Cardy occasionally mentioned that he was worried about doing convention sketches.  I just told him that they probably won't be throwing a 80 (and later 90) year old guy in jail, so don't worry too much.

Roger Kastel (artist of the Jaws paperback cover and movie poster) also painted The Empire Strikes Back style A poster (Gone with the Wind version).  He told me his contract expressly restricted him to only depicting characters and scenes from ESB.  And he thought this contact was still in force even decades later.  He didn't think he was legally allowed to paint a character like Jabba the Hutt.  So all you guys and gals in Artist Alley should feel lucky.

[alxjhnsn]

1 minute ago, Will_K said:

Getting a little off track here...

Joe Staton has a Justice Society print that reads:
TM & (c) 2016 DC Comics Inc Used by permission

I asked Joe if he REALLY has permission.  He said that in fact he has a letter from DC that gives him permission to draw their characters.  I don't think it's limited to a specific list of DC characters but... there you go.  This was the first instance I've heard of an artist actually having "permission" to draw copyrighted characters.

Nick Cardy occasionally mentioned that he was worried about doing convention sketches.  I just told him that they probably won't be throwing a 80 (and later 90) year old guy in jail, so don't worry too much.

Roger Kastel (artist of the Jaws paperback cover and movie poster) also painted The Empire Strikes Back style A poster (Gone with the Wind version).  He told me his contract expressly restricted him to only depicting characters and scenes from ESB.  And he thought this contact was still in force even decades later.  He didn't think he was legally allowed to paint a character like Jabba the Hutt.  So all you guys and gals in Artist Alley should feel lucky.

Yep. That's the way it should work legally.

Carl Barks had permission from Disney to paint the Ducks. I believe that Don Rosa does, too.

I'm sure that there are other formal arrangements.

[Will_K]

On 6/18/2018 at 12:58 AM, comix4fun said:

I think another valuable lesson you can take from this experience is to be discerning from whom you seek advice.

Totally agree with that.

Also, commissions are all about expectations so there's bound to be some level of emotion involved. 

I just received a commission (not related to Felix or his clients).  It was supposed to have a specific version of 2 characters.  Well, I didn't get the versions I wanted but otherwise... a great piece of art.  But so specific, I probably can't flip it (except at a great loss).  I'm still trying to absorb it.  I haven't commented to the artist.  And I doubt he'd re-do it, for artistic reasons I'd guess.  It'll probably go into the back page of an Itoya.

[comix4fun]

1 minute ago, Will_K said:

Totally agree with that.

Also, commissions are all about expectations so there's bound to be some level of emotion involved. 

I just received a commission (not related to Felix or his clients).  It was supposed to have a specific version of 2 characters.  Well, I didn't get the versions I wanted but otherwise... a great piece of art.  But so specific, I probably can't flip it (except at a great loss).  I'm still trying to absorb it.  I haven't commented to the artist.  And I doubt he'd re-do it, for artistic reasons I'd guess.  It'll probably go into the back page of an Itoya.

If that were me I'd BURN THAT ARTIST TO THE GROUND!!!  umm , I mean, I'd ask the artist if they remembered the request and if there was a reason for the change. You probably won't get the piece you wanted but you'll be able to scratch that itch of "WTF! Just Happened?" 

[NickyVee]

On 6/16/2018 at 2:54 AM, mikerb22231 said:

 Lastly he challenged me to share this story on the CGC boards and see if I had waited too long, if he was in the wrong, etc.

 

Who is going to answer this honestly if they have an opinion that differs from Felix?  You've already sided with him.  He's a member of this forum and will see it.  As it has already been stated, commissions are built on relationships, and negative responses to commission experiences often result in the buyer getting a reputation among artists rather than artists and reps apologizing or trying to make it right.  When you're admiring your haul from the convention, those artists and reps are hanging out and sharing stories.  They all have stories involving "that guy", and nobody wants to be "that guy."  

 

I have very strong opinions about the whole commission process, but I'm not going to broadcast that because the internet is not a friendly place.  I do have something I may comment about in the near future, but it's more about what I would find helpful to all parties instead of just registering a complaint. 

 

In my opinion, you didn't provide enough details for anyone to pick a side.  I've received Daniel's rates in an email before, so I know what you were probably quoted.  I understand why this situation would make you nervous, and that's why I don't have a Daniel Warren Johnson commission.  Daniel does great work, but from what I've read, most of it is his choice.  Providing a lot of details and specific requests would probably get you exactly what you want.  However, what you're really searching for is the feeling that seeing one of his commissions gives you, and being heavy handed about your request would likely stifle that result. 

 

Good luck in your future attempts.

 

[dirtymartini1]

I already keep back 200 ft like I am behind a fire truck but this thread only reinforces what I already know. Stay away from commissions. Buy published art work that you enjoy. If and when you need to sell, it also appreciates in value whereas the commission is personal and much less marketable if put on the selling block. Also there is no agita or aggravation when buying published as there is no unknown completion date or worry of getting a piece.

Edited June 29, 2018 by dirtymartini1

[malvin]

4 hours ago, dirtymartini1 said:

I already keep back 200 ft like I am behind a fire truck but this thread only reinforces what I already know. Stay away from commissions. Buy published art work that you enjoy. If and when you need to sell, it also appreciates in value whereas the commission is personal and much less marketable if put on the selling block. Also there is no agita or aggravation when buying published as there is no unknown completion date or worry of getting a piece.

Agree with almost everything, except for the statement that implies all published art will appreciate in value 

Malvin 

[dirtymartini1]

3 hours ago, malvin said:

Agree with almost everything, except for the statement that implies all published art will appreciate in value 

Malvin 

Agreed.  def not all will increase in value.

20 years from now when ready to sell some of the collection,  I would rather be the guy with 200 published pages for sale vs the guy with 200 commissions for sale.

[solitude]

I have been in this situation before...took me 6 years to get my commission from Jim Balent...I bugged him like every 2 or 3 years though..i didnt press it till the end..there was some problems one guy from Germany..Holly said ordered like 20 commissions..but after waiting so long he moved me up to cover quality..did a cool Harley and Batman pic....So patience is probably the key word..i need to send him something as a thank you..i think i was supposed to be charged quite a bit more than what i did initially..and he let it go because i waited so long..its in my CAF under Solitude Slaytanicus...my old everquest handle...it also made me think heavily before i acted on another ...as this was my 1st..i still have not pulled the trigger on another.......

[malvin]

3 hours ago, dirtymartini1 said:

Agreed.  def not all will increase in value.

20 years from now when ready to sell some of the collection,  I would rather be the guy with 200 published pages for sale vs the guy with 200 commissions for sale.

Agreed again! 

[BeholdersEye]

4 hours ago, dirtymartini1 said:

Agreed.  def not all will increase in value.

20 years from now when ready to sell some of the collection,  I would rather be the guy with 200 published pages for sale vs the guy with 200 commissions for sale.

A totally agree with you on that scenario.

The odds are that published artwork will outperform commissioned artwork, but the x-factor is always going to be "artist" trumps everything then "character" comes next, and then oddly enough "rendering quality" - - so, in other words you can have an elaborate jungle girl painting that looks epic by an unknown street artist VS a quick doodle of a jungle girl by Frank Cho, Frank Frazetta, Adam Hughes, etc and we all know which one would sell for more now and tomorrow.  For comic art, we've all seen published super-hero pages, aged over 20 years since publication of mainstream characters (Spider-Man, X-Men, Batman, etc.) do surprisingly well at auctions.

It's not that "nobody cares about commissions" it's just less people do, and even less would spend an ungodly amount on 'em later on, unless it's by a top name artist with detailed rendering.  The problem today is that most artists charge an amount for commissions where there's little room to "flip" 'em for worthwhile profit, so commissions are truly for fans more so than investors.

The one thing that I think has moved most collectors away from commissions isn't only the price, but more so "the waiting game" and unreliability of artists and seemingly awkward situation where, as a paying customer, we feel we have to beg and grovel to get what we paid for when there's delays as if these artists were made of glass and sensitive geniuses fearing offending them by simply asking for the respect of getting what was paid for in a timely manner as promised. In what other industry can someone take your money, and not deliver the goods within a promised or reasonable deadline?

[ESeffinga]

As with all things, it depends as well. I'd rather have a pencil doodle by Frazetta than a published Sad Sack strip.

I'd take several of CC's trophy wall commissions over a lot of published pages, personally, but that's because he's had a great knack for pairing talent with a theme that just about anyone can relate to. A Batman commission where he's standing on a gargoyle is going to appeal to more people than a commission of Batman with Spawn, for instance.

The more off-beat the farther from the money sphere a commission will be, but then there's a lot of reasons for getting commissions, and what they'll be worth one day should be at the very end of the list. So the comparison to me, seems pretty apples and oranges. To me, a commission is a sheer indulgence for personal enjoyment. Like an expensive dinner, but something that I get to enjoy for years, decades if I'm lucky. Published art can be that as well, but as a whole has shown more potential for financial gain. But then ask why buy either, if investment is really the goal? It can be done, but disaster leads that way also. One could argue if you are going to sink money in, you might as well recoup as much as you can later on. But then you'll never have the enjoyment of a drawing of your kids hanging out with Superman, or seeing what a cover-quality JH Williams Swamp Think might look like, or whatever other thing flips your trigger.

All trade-offs.

Edited June 29, 2018 by ESeffinga

[alxjhnsn]

I enjoy getting commissions, but ...

1) I have been uncommonly lucky in that none have been late for less than valid reasons and all the artists have kept in touch.

2) I expect to lose at least 60% of the cost of the commission when they are sold (by my wife and daughters).

In exchange, I get an image that I want from the artist I chose. That works for me.

As an example, of what I like and what will never make back the cost, I offer my most recent commission. I'm a fan of Yale Stewart's work on JL8 and Kathy commissioned him (with an assist from me) for a 35 wedding anniversary present featuring the "Little Legion." Click for a bigger image.

There are 30 humanoids, 1 disassembled killer robot, a table of food, and rocks. This was pricy.

I have the OA boards, the prelims are on the way, and there is one full-size print. A Legion collector might pay me a couple of hundred for the lot if they had a sweet spot for the SA Legion, but I doubt it would go for more.

My rule of thumb - the more personal the commission, the lower the resale. The more complicated, the longer it will take and the more expensive it will be. Commissions get worked in among the regular job and they can slide for a long time.

Risk and reward.

Edited June 30, 2018 by alxjhnsn

[alxjhnsn]

One other comment about a commission, to get the best work, you need an idea that appeals to both the artist and to you. My Howard the Duck vs. Donald Duck by Frank Brunner was one like that.

[Rick2you2]

On 6/26/2018 at 8:19 PM, alxjhnsn said:

  Quote

The artist retains the copyright to the picture, so he can re-use it if he wants to do so elsewhere. The artist's drawing of an image, however, is probably a trademark violation, if it is something like Wolverine, where Marvel would hold the trademark for Wolverines image and symbols.

I'm going to stick with what I wrote, but add an addendum. First, this is from the US Patent and Trademark Office:

A trademark typically protects brand names and logos used on goods and services. A patent protects an invention. A copyright protects an original artistic or literary work. For example, if you invent a new kind of vacuum cleaner, you would apply for a patent to protect the invention itself. You would apply to register a trademark to protect the brand name of the vacuum cleaner. And you might register a copyright for the TV commercial that you use to market the product.

Yes, Woverine's image may be trademarked, and art can be copyrighted and trademarked at the same time. Trademarking art, however, is more intended for commercial use, like the GEICO Gecko, than artistic protection. So, if an artist used a model for his rendering of a new picture of Wolverine, it would be a copyright violation even though it may also be a trademark violation.

[comix4fun]

On 6/29/2018 at 11:13 AM, ESeffinga said:

I'd take several of CC's trophy wall commissions over a lot of published pages, personally, but that's because he's had a great knack for pairing talent with a theme that just about anyone can relate to.

 

Well, thanks! 

That's one of the reasons I've been moving more slowly commissioning them these last few years. I want to make it a great idea to go with the right artist. Commissions can be fun that way.