• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Are comics gaining more respect as a valid investment outside of the comic collecting community?
8 8

208 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, fastballspecial said:
11 hours ago, HeyMoe said:

What would make the neighborhood go to hell?

renting

 

Govt subsidized apartments can do the trick.  I watched a very nice neighborhood with an excellent school go down the tubes in a matter of 4 years-they actually closed down the school.  Built several apartment complexes and down it went.  This was a newer school but it just went straight down the tubes and failed academically so they shut er down.

Edited by kav
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, FSF said:

First off, we can selectively choose all sorts of individual stocks that had astounding returns over whatever period of time we want to play with.  The bottom line is, someone who knows nothing about stocks can dump their money into a widely diversified ETF and call it a day and the returns should easily outpace even the best of most all comic returns (and I think ALL grail comics because they don't have the MAIN and really ONLY advantage of starting from such a low point anymore), let alone the entire comic market which will not yield any return in my opinion and return a huge negative.

Two, everyone is looking back in hindsight to prove their comic "investment" returns but we all know that if even 1 measly percent kept their Action 1s or AF15s or FF1s in VF+ condition, the values would be a fraction of what they are today.  Comics, like cards and coins, really only go through one or maybe two major secular spikes.  IMO, that happened with the 1980s/90s and then the first several years of CGC.  Since then, the returns on a total basis (even excluding 99% which are dreck) have not been by any means that great.

Do you folks realize that the vast majority of certified "investment" grade coins are worth LESS than they were over 30 and in many cases 40 years ago.  I'm talking in NOMINAL dollars at that.  Chew on that for a bit and try convince yourself why comics are so special.

Also, I'm not sure who posted that real estate taxes are the only expense they have but I seriously hope they just forgot to mention insurance.

I didn't say it was my only expense. You can add insurance, water, heat, a/c, food, nails, SHOES;) etc, etc;) I was just saying I paid off my mortgage and don't have that expense as an example, but thanks for mentioning that just in case I didn't have any;) .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, FSF said:

I agree that the census bubble had a lot to do with that.  But by no means is that the only factor.  Prior to PCGS/NGC, raw MS65 Morgans, Walkers, etc. which comprised a huge portion of the then "investment grade rare coins" were selling for several hundred dollars in the preceding 6-8 years (though the numbers vary depending on exactly when).  Also, I'm sure we can agree those were inferior grades compared to certification.  Of course they don't grade as tight as they did in the late 1980s, which is an entirely different matter.  Also, an entire series like Barbers, in all denoms, are less then they were back when and are going begging for collectors today.  We're talking about a series that legitimately is pretty scarce/rare but affordable and yet they can't really find a collecting audience aside from the obligatory type collectors.

 

The Census Bubble had everything to do with the meltdown of 1990. It would be a mistake to include overgraded....and thus, overpriced...examples in any discussion of value over time. Overgrading has always been a problem, in any collectibles field, and cannot be factored into the discussion of real value gains or losses. Do not misunderstand: obviously, those who bought overgraded coins and comics have suffered real losses, but in an analysis of the relative health of a market, overgrading is not a legitimate factor.

In other words....that "MS65" you bought in 1983 for $1,000, that was really an AU50, cleaned, and is only worth $125 today, 35 years later, doesn't mean that the performance of actual MS65s are negatively impacted by such experiences. An actual MS65 today might be worth $20,000.

And I don't know about Barbers...I've been trying to put together low grade sets for years, and I just see prices going up, up, up. 1915 Phil 50c in 2000 was $20, now it's $150? And forget the keys. 1901-S 25c, you can't touch an example for less than four figures. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That said, there has certainly been a softening of prices in the highest echelons for coins....the Mickley 1804 $1 just sold for a substantial loss to the previous owner. $3.877M to $2.640M in five years is a bath. There was a time when you wouldn't see specific 1804s on the market for decades...this one has been "flipped" 3 times in the last 10 years.

Idiots buying for "investment" instead of buying because of the mystique of owning the most famous coin in the world. I have little sympathy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reason that I'm including pre-certified grades is that I am absolutely convinced based on my experiences in the 1980s that pre-CGC grading on average was way inferior to CGC grading.  It's human nature I suppose when selling to give yourself the benefit of the higher grade.  And since the thread has been filled with people comparing theoretical purchases of grades for books decades before the advent of comic third party grading is why I'm mentioning that aspect.  Circulated low grade coins have held up decently though hardly anything to brag about.  However, even that has to be qualified for nice relatively problem free examples, which there never was that much of and there isn't today. You can get the dreck problem coins all day long for a song at shows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, FSF said:

The reason that I'm including pre-certified grades is that I am absolutely convinced based on my experiences in the 1980s that pre-CGC grading on average was way inferior to CGC grading.  It's human nature I suppose when selling to give yourself the benefit of the higher grade.  And since the thread has been filled with people comparing theoretical purchases of grades for books decades before the advent of comic third party grading is why I'm mentioning that aspect.  Circulated low grade coins have held up decently though hardly anything to brag about.  However, even that has to be qualified for nice relatively problem free examples, which there never was that much of and there isn't today. You can get the dreck problem coins all day long for a song at shows.

I've experienced a 3.0 sold to an LCS, become a 6.0, once it hit their wall....

When buying it they moan about how bad it is but once it hits the wall-

Edited by kav
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

I didn't say it was my only expense. You can add insurance, water, heat, a/c, food, nails, SHOES;) etc, etc;) I was just saying I paid off my mortgage and don't have that expense as an example, but thanks for mentioning that just in case I didn't have any;) .

I'm in the same boat and right next to San Jose, which is very weird reading this thread.  The only reason I mentioned the insurance is because all that other stuff are things even renters incur, though on rare occasions some or all utilities are picked up by landlord but even then, it's really just a pass through cost that the renter pays.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Respect, probably not since they're still looked at as "funny pages" albeit often worth more than their weight in gold.  The problem with many collectible investments is that they're not so easy to liquidate at top market dollar and you have to seek out buyers, more so than with traditional investments like precious metals, stocks or commodities you can pull your entire portfolio off the market and transform into cash with the click of a button.  If you have 1,000+ comics or comic art, outside of selling to a dealer at a fraction of the value, it would be time consuming to list all items for sale waiting for a buyer or putting them up for auction hoping that they hit FMV or better.  Plus, knowing most collectors have more losers than winners, to liquidate dollar bin type junk you paid more for, cuts into the overall profitability of the collection.

I think Comics are good for collectors to then see as a fun way to enjoy life knowing their assets will be worth something.  It's those pesky speculators from the 1990's and now today who just buy variants, don't read 'em, slab 'em and try to hold or flip 'em that potentially turns comic books and the hobby into a Beanie Baby environment with people looking to come in and hope to exploit the fans by hording and reselling at higher prices not knowing or caring about the commodity itself.

So, the true investment community might see a few key books in high grade as blue chip investments, much like how some dedicate money towards a diversified portfolio that may include fine art, but in general, buying comics under $1,000 is amature hour and picking up pennies vs real dollars to savvy investors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/18/2018 at 4:50 AM, FSF said:
On 6/18/2018 at 4:31 AM, VintageComics said:

The run up on comics related to movies happens in much the same way a stock runs up on favorable news.

 

BTW, this comment is not correct at all.  It's not the "news" that drives the price up in stocks but the implications of that news.

Obviously, that is what I meant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/18/2018 at 7:44 AM, DR.X said:

 

And it will make them money. Put  new I phone down on a table along side of a F.F. #52. Bring in a group of people. Don't matter how many. Give them a choice of items on the table for free. Guess which one they will pick up and run out the door with. And stocks do make people money. Apple has made me quite a bit. People don't need comics except to look at, read and enjoy. When this comic bubble pops, people will be pounding their heads off of tables wondering where to stick those comic books.

'Need' is a relative thing.

Most people might 'need' an iPhone more than an FF #52 but very few people really need the latest iPhone.

Now if you told everyone in the room that the FF #52 was a 9.6 and worth $20K, they'd 'need' that more than the iPhone.

Nobody was saying that a comic book is more useful than an iPhone. What I was saying was that perception fuels speculation in markets and not all speculation pays out.

And I don't think anyone is arguing that stocks don't make people money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

'Need' is a relative thing.

Most people might 'need' an iPhone more than an FF #52 but very few people really need the latest iPhone.

Now if you told everyone in the room that the FF #52 was a 9.6 and worth $20K, they'd 'need' that more than the iPhone.

Nobody was saying that a comic book is more useful than an iPhone. What I was saying was that perception fuels speculation in markets and not all speculation pays out.

And I don't think anyone is arguing that stocks don't make people money.

I did not say anybody needed anything. I was giving an example of human nature. None of us " need " a phone. Life went on without them. And I didn't say tell them what the book was worth. They would grab the phone because everyone else has one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

'Need' is a relative thing.

Most people might 'need' an iPhone more than an FF #52 but very few people really need the latest iPhone.

Now if you told everyone in the room that the FF #52 was a 9.6 and worth $20K, they'd 'need' that more than the iPhone.

 

But I think the comment is valid because it proves, if one believes it as I do, the obliviousness of the general public as to just how expensive some comics could be.  Sure they have some vague notion that "some" comics could be worth a lot of money but that's really as far as it goes with the vast majority of the non-collecting/never collected public.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, FSF said:

But I think the comment is valid because it proves, if one believes it as I do, the obliviousness of the general public as to just how expensive some comics could be.  Sure they have some vague notion that "some" comics could be worth a lot of money but that's really as far as it goes with the vast majority of the non-collecting/never collected public.

bingo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, FSF said:

But I think the comment is valid because it proves, if one believes it as I do, the obliviousness of the general public as to just how expensive some comics could be.  Sure they have some vague notion that "some" comics could be worth a lot of money but that's really as far as it goes with the vast majority of the non-collecting/never collected public.

But you are selectively choosing your apples and oranges.

Anyhow, not going to go in circles with you. I disagree and I believe that the general public now knows that collectibles have value (and I would lump most mainstream collectibles in this including cards, cars, comics, etc) and I'll leave it at that.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, VintageComics said:

But you are selectively choosing your apples and oranges.

Anyhow, not going to go in circles with you. I disagree and I believe that the general public now knows that collectibles have value (and I would lump most mainstream collectibles in this including cards, cars, comics, etc) and I'll leave it at that.

 

 

They've known collectibles had value way before comics had any real value.  It wasn't comics that brought it to the fore and when they think of "collectibles", hardly anyone is thinking comic book as the first thing of real value IMO.  Sure antique cars, or certainly "rare" coins, and even Beatles and Elvis memorabilia permeate their thoughts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, FSF said:

They've known collectibles had value way before comics had any real value.  It wasn't comics that brought it to the fore and when they think of "collectibles", hardly anyone is thinking comic book as the first thing of real value IMO.  Sure antique cars, or certainly "rare" coins, and even Beatles and Elvis memorabilia permeate their thoughts.

Thank you for making my point after disagreeing with me about it for days. doh!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, VintageComics said:

Thank you for making my point after disagreeing with me about it for days. doh!

I've held the exact same stance since my first post in this thread.  In fact, I'm not sure what you're interpreting as "making your point" but I'm basically doubling down with my last post that comics are NOT in the minds of the non-collecting public anywhere near to the extent you seem to think so.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kav said:

I've experienced a 3.0 sold to an LCS, become a 6.0, once it hit their wall....

When buying it they moan about how bad it is but once it hits the wall-

True that.  And all the more reason that "investing" in comics is silly because when the exact same dealer sells the exact same book as VF but buys is as an F at best, hard to garner these hypothetical hindsight returns everyone is talking about.  And while CGC has done a great job of mitigating many of these issues.  They'll never be able to eliminate

"This is high end for the grade" or "This is a premium example" when selling and then when buying back: "It's okay" or "It's got X problem here and Y problem there"

It's been going on in coins for decades and cards are no different.  Once again, human nature I suppose. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haven't read the whole thread, but here's my take:

Within an investment portfolio, alternative/"passion" investments comprise of collectibles and art.

Collectibles are mass-produced items of potentially-increasing value (i.e. cars, watches, wine, coins, comic books, etc).

Art are one-of-a-kind objects of artistic expression of potentially-increasing value (i.e. paintings, sculptures, drawings, comics OA, etc).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, BeholdersEye said:

Respect, probably not since they're still looked at as "funny pages" albeit often worth more than their weight in gold.  The problem with many collectible investments is that they're not so easy to liquidate at top market dollar and you have to seek out buyers, more so than with traditional investments like precious metals, stocks or commodities you can pull your entire portfolio off the market and transform into cash with the click of a button.  If you have 1,000+ comics or comic art, outside of selling to a dealer at a fraction of the value, it would be time consuming to list all items for sale waiting for a buyer or putting them up for auction hoping that they hit FMV or better.  Plus, knowing most collectors have more losers than winners, to liquidate dollar bin type junk you paid more for, cuts into the overall profitability of the collection.

I think Comics are good for collectors to then see as a fun way to enjoy life knowing their assets will be worth something.  It's those pesky speculators from the 1990's and now today who just buy variants, don't read 'em, slab 'em and try to hold or flip 'em that potentially turns comic books and the hobby into a Beanie Baby environment with people looking to come in and hope to exploit the fans by hording and reselling at higher prices not knowing or caring about the commodity itself.

So, the true investment community might see a few key books in high grade as blue chip investments, much like how some dedicate money towards a diversified portfolio that may include fine art, but in general, buying comics under $1,000 is amature hour and picking up pennies vs real dollars to savvy investors.

+ a lot.

Multiple key truths here explaining the essence of comics as investments.  

If you restrict your investments to readily liquid books, know how to liquidate, and turn over inventory at a reasonable rate, profit and risk is arguably better than most conventional investments. Problem is most people: 1) can’t do math; 2) don’t utilize selling venues optimally; 3) acquire too much dead inventory and books that take too much work to turn over.

Almost no one on these boards except maybe some BSDs or Roy embrace the optimal model. Part of the problem is few want to treat books like widgets. I and many accept a diminished ROI in order to be a collector/investor instead of a pure savvy investor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
8 8