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CGC vs CBCS
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111 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, 1950's war comics said:

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CGC vs CBCS

there is actually NO comparison,... it is like comparing GRADE A choice cuts vs cheap hamburger

 

 

You've subbed books to both companies? You've bought books slabbed by both companies?

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If people really believe CBCS slabbed comics fetch less in the marketplace than their CGC counterparts, why aren't more of you snapping up all the CBCS slabs that are for sale?  It would be an easy process to have them cross-graded and then sold for a tidy profit.

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2 hours ago, namisgr said:

If people really believe CBCS slabbed comics fetch less in the marketplace than their CGC counterparts, why aren't more of you snapping up all the CBCS slabs that are for sale?  It would be an easy process to have them cross-graded and then sold for a tidy profit.

It's not a matter of belief. The numbers are available to anyone and everyone to come to the same exact conclusion.

For pre-Modern, there's the worry of undetected restoration, etc. Outside of that, there's the cost of extra fees, the time spent cross-grading, and risk of all these shipments losing/damaging the book.

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I have subbed books to both companies. In fact I was a voldy member before I came here. I submitted groups of books 4 different times and each time there was a new set of problems. They were very consistent in failure. Got tired of send books back in. Waiting over 6 months because their plastic holder was no good. Waiting over 3 times as long as promised TAT in their fastest tier all because they accidently placed books in different tier. I've now been a member here as long as I was with voldy and its been like night and day. CGC truly handles their business like professionals. As far as the voldy books being worth less money I just did a random check on ebays finished auctions and chose ASM #100 since its a popular book. There were CGC 8.5s that sold for more than the voldy 9.2 and both were basic certified label. I look thru finished auctions all the time and this trend is found a lot.

 

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On 11/22/2018 at 7:09 AM, Bird said:

They had a Ruth signed ball at the last esate auction I went to . The snow made buyers scarce but I wasn't going to take that chance. Two Picasso's as well, and there are 2 Picasso's at the local "Trading Post" too. (He just signed blank paper at the end of his life.)

Wasn't that Dali?

By the way, I recently attended a private auction of a veterinary clinic/ pet store.  In one of the miscellaneous lots, I came across a pad of blank AKC papers.  I wonder how many of these papers are fraudulently written.  A $10  pound puppy becomes  a  $500  pedigree with the right paperwork.

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On 4/19/2019 at 4:18 AM, namisgr said:

If people really believe CBCS slabbed comics fetch less in the marketplace than their CGC counterparts, why aren't more of you snapping up all the CBCS slabs that are for sale?  It would be an easy process to have them cross-graded and then sold for a tidy profit.

Loose lips and all that....

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On 4/19/2019 at 7:18 AM, namisgr said:

If people really believe CBCS slabbed comics fetch less in the marketplace than their CGC counterparts, why aren't more of you snapping up all the CBCS slabs that are for sale?  It would be an easy process to have them cross-graded and then sold for a tidy profit.

I have.  If it is something that I want to flip then I have to consider reslabbing fees + incurrence of associated auction or listing fees.   The gap between the two has to be wide enough to make it my while.  Have I done it?  Yup... and in some cases it has been worth it. 

One book I did that with was a copy of Superman 11 with some slight restoration.  The difference in price between CGC and CBCS made it worthwhile to pick up the book at the price I did and have it reslabbed in a CGC 3.0 holder for my personal collection.  

 

Edited by Buzzetta
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On 8/25/2018 at 7:12 PM, I like pie said:

I'll never understand why anyone would pay one penny for a signature series book that was not witnessed.

There are people who made their career in forgeries. 

It's like throwing money away.

Even though I collect very few sig books, that reason alone would keep me away from CBCS.

Some artist, like Mike Mayhew, sell signed comics straight from their website not witnessed. I doubt Mike Mayhew is selling forgeries of his own signature.

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On 6/30/2019 at 8:02 AM, NikG said:
On 8/25/2018 at 4:12 PM, I like pie said:

I'll never understand why anyone would pay one penny for a signature series book that was not witnessed.

There are people who made their career in forgeries. 

It's like throwing money away.

Even though I collect very few sig books, that reason alone would keep me away from CBCS.

Some artist, like Mike Mayhew, sell signed comics straight from their website not witnessed. I doubt Mike Mayhew is selling forgeries of his own signature.

Sure, but that's not the argument being made. Creators are allowed by CGC to sign copies of their work, unwitnessed, provided they fill out the proper paperwork and send the books directly to CGC.

It's the chain of custody that's the issue. The second an unwitnessed signature passes to an intermediary, regardless of the best intentions of all involved, the door to fraud is opened.

So, Mike Mayhew isn't selling forgeries of his own signature...but can you say the same of the people through whom a book might pass between him and CBCS?

And the answer is a solid no.

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I think I've told this story before: I sat in front of Tim Bildhauser a while back, who is in one or another position of authority at CBCS, someone I had never met before, and who didn't know me from Adam. I was bringing him a handful of books (5 or so) for a client who wanted to submit them to their VSP program (I have never submitted, and would never submit, my own books to CBCS.) However, because he knew the person I was associated with (not present; I had an identifying feature on me...being vague on purpose, because I have no intention of throwing them under the bus), he told me those books could be submitted under their "Witnessed Signature" program. 

I was completely shocked. These were books that had been signed God knows when (decades in one case), and which had passed through God knows how many hands before coming to me but, if I wanted, I could have had them come back under their "yellow label" program, as "witnessed sigs." 

Bildhauser is supposed to be a gatekeeper to protect the integrity of the program, not an usher.

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16 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I think I've told this story before: I sat in front of Tim Bildhauser a while back, who is in one or another position of authority at CBCS, someone I had never met before, and who didn't know me from Adam. I was bringing him a handful of books (5 or so) for a client who wanted to submit them to their VSP program (I have never submitted, and would never submit, my own books to CBCS.) However, because he knew the person I was associated with (not present; I had an identifying feature on me...being vague on purpose, because I have no intention of throwing them under the bus), he told me those books could be submitted under their "Witnessed Signature" program. 

I was completely shocked. These were books that had been signed God knows when (decades in one case), and which had passed through God knows how many hands before coming to me but, if I wanted, I could have had them come back under their "yellow label" program, as "witnessed sigs." 

Bildhauser is supposed to be a gatekeeper to protect the integrity of the program, not an usher.

And that is a huge problem.  And they wanted to raise a stink about the CGC evidence bags?  :roflmao:

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On 1/28/2019 at 11:28 PM, Darkowl said:

Totally. This is what makes the CGC Signature Series so valuable in the first place. Lose that one aspect of it, and it's worthless in my eyes.

Ok I understand your opinion and its good. But what do you say to those of us who have been collecting comics and going to comic conventions for 30 plus years.  And have many signed books by very famous artist and writers but they weren't witnessed by your precious CGC cause they didn't exist at all. What do you say to them when they want there signed comic graded so they can possible sell it. What are they suppose to do.

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On 8/21/2019 at 8:54 AM, Ecko73 said:

Ok I understand your opinion and its good. But what do you say to those of us who have been collecting comics and going to comic conventions for 30 plus years.  And have many signed books by very famous artist and writers but they weren't witnessed by your precious CGC cause they didn't exist at all. What do you say to them when they want there signed comic graded so they can possible sell it. What are they suppose to do.

You cannot blame CGC or anybody for that matter for your circumstances. They came up with a way to help prevent fake signatures from getting on their graded books. It is very easy to forge a signature by people with the right skills and knowledge. Imagine how many fake Babe Ruth signed baseballs there are out there. How would you ever know for sure? Anything with an autograph for that matter. It's good to have some peace of mind when you see that yellow label. Sorry that history made your book with a signature become questionable. Blame the thief's out there. Not us collectors.

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I collect football cards as a side hobby. I get them slabbed and sig verified by Beckett, who own CBCS. I assume they use the same methodology being one company - I’ve been to their home office in Dallas and since both are done side by side I assume they follow similar standards. Anyway, I’ve submitted say 5 Ezekiel Elliot’s and gotten back 4 verified and 1 rejected because the auto was too poor, illegible, suspicious in some way, etc. So while I’m not a fan of CBCS for several reasons, I believe they do put effort into verification and don’t just slap “verified” labels on these unwitnessed signatures willy nilly 

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On 8/21/2019 at 9:54 AM, Ecko73 said:

Ok I understand your opinion and its good. But what do you say to those of us who have been collecting comics and going to comic conventions for 30 plus years.  And have many signed books by very famous artist and writers but they weren't witnessed by your precious CGC cause they didn't exist at all. What do you say to them when they want there signed comic graded so they can possible sell it. What are they suppose to do.

You still can make money off those them.  Just like with old  Presidential or other historically significant figures or ,as mentioned, signed baseballs.  There always will be services willing to verify those types of things.   There is and always will be a market for that. It's just a matter of increased risk you take on either buying or selling and the effect that can have on prices.

CGC isn't removing any of that; they're just offering a service designed to lessen the risk.

 

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On 8/21/2019 at 8:54 AM, Ecko73 said:
On 1/28/2019 at 11:28 PM, Darkowl said:

Totally. This is what makes the CGC Signature Series so valuable in the first place. Lose that one aspect of it, and it's worthless in my eyes.

Ok I understand your opinion and its good. But what do you say to those of us who have been collecting comics and going to comic conventions for 30 plus years.  And have many signed books by very famous artist and writers but they weren't witnessed by your precious CGC cause they didn't exist at all. What do you say to them when they want there signed comic graded so they can possible sell it. What are they suppose to do.

I don't agree with @Darkowl that the books are "worthless", but my view is that signed books represent:

1) An experience by the person/collector who goes to the convention.

2) A physical souvenir of getting that opportunity to meet a famous artist or writer.

3) Absolute certainty that the signature witnessed is legitimate.

4) A book signed by someone.

When these types of books are sold to the next person, the only thing that transfers is 4) A book signed by someone.  1), 2), and 3) aren't transferred.

Nothing will ever beat the "sentimental value" associated with being the person who gets to claim 1), 2), 3), and 4).

CGC simply provides a way for the next person to get 3) and 4), rather than just 4).

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Keep in mind also that as man, hobby and technology advance, things are going to change. Back in the late 80s I purchased a camcorder for $1200 bucks. It would record whatever you filmed on a VHS tape. If I still had that useless paperweight it still wouldn't be able to make as good of a video as a cheapo $100 dollar cell phone. Nobody's fault. No one to blame. Just accept it and move on.

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On 8/21/2019 at 7:54 AM, Ecko73 said:

Ok I understand your opinion and its good. But what do you say to those of us who have been collecting comics and going to comic conventions for 30 plus years.  And have many signed books by very famous artist and writers but they weren't witnessed by your precious CGC cause they didn't exist at all. What do you say to them when they want there signed comic graded so they can possible sell it. What are they suppose to do.

I'm not concerned about those collectors, but i certainly wish them the very best of luck.

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