Sqeggs Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) I assume that most people have been following the Church books that have been in recent Heritage auctions. Some of the books in the auction that closed on Sunday night were mid-grade and I wondered whether they were in that shape when Chuck first bought them. Just for fun, I checked a few against the grades Chuck gave them in his catalog: Pinhead and Foodini 1 Heritage: Raw VG/FN Chuck: Not in catalog Shadow Vol. 3, No. 11 Heritage: CGC 4.0 Chuck: NM Toy Town 5 Heritage: Raw FN Chuck: FN Western Crime Busters 7 Heritage: Raw VG Chuck: NM Western Thrillers 1 Heritage: Raw VG/FN Chuck: NM+ Wild Boy of the Congo 7 Heritage: Raw FN+ Chuck: NM That's not all of them, but it looks like at least few of these books experienced rough handling at some point in the years since Chuck sold them. Edited July 5, 2018 by Sqeggs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotham Kid Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) either that or Chuck couldn't/can't grade for sh*t. Edited July 5, 2018 by Gotham Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted July 5, 2018 Author Share Posted July 5, 2018 11 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said: either that or Chuck couldn't/can't grade for sh*t. Probably true for some of them like the Wild Boy book. Chuck's NM might well be Heritage's FN+, particularly since, as discussed in another thread, Heritage has been grading raws pretty tight lately, maybe to avoid returns. But some of them, like the Shadow listed above, seem to have deteriorated over time. Of course, when the collection was new, many people thought of the books as just being really nice copies, read them and added them to their collections. The books didn't evoke the reverence and awe that they receive these days! jimjum12 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Lady Luck Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Is it possible that these are some of the cat pee books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telerites Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Yeah, I think Chuck has always been an optimistic grader but I do assume some of the lower grades do come from being passed through other's and their possible mis-storage and mishandling. With that said, I don't really trust HA's raw grading either. Previous experience, I received one GA book with a glossed cover that was not noted and a couple that were sorely over-graded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 On 7/6/2018 at 8:36 AM, Mr. Lady Luck said: Is it possible that these are some of the cat pee books? Maybe. Was it John McLaughlin who let his cats pee on his books? Iirc, because he mixed his Church books in with his other books, there was some question about whether all the books he later said were Church books actually were. I may be misremembering that, but if Verzyl bought books from McLaughlin that were supposed to be Church books but that actually weren't, we would have another explanation for the condition of these books. All rank speculation, of course, and should be taken with a bushel of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robot Man Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 6 hours ago, Sqeggs said: Maybe. Was it John McLaughlin who let his cats pee on his books? Iirc, because he mixed his Church books in with his other books, there was some question about whether all the books he later said were Church books actually were. I may be misremembering that, but if Verzyl bought books from McLaughlin that were supposed to be Church books but that actually weren't, we would have another explanation for the condition of these books. All rank speculation, of course, and should be taken with a bushel of salt. I knew McLaughlin pretty well. He had many large 2' stacks of Church books just sitting un-bagged on the floor of his living room. At the time, he was offering tripple guide for Church books to everyone in the SO CA area. He accumulated quite a few. They generally wern't mixed in with his other books. And yes, his cats did pee on some of the stacks. I doubt Verzyl bought any of John's Church copies as he wouldn't sell any of them. If anything, McLaughlin bought Church books from Verzyl. They both were early buyers of the collection. McLaughlin was a VERY wealthy trust fund kid and money was no object to him. His rare book collection made his comics look like garbage. ThothAmon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) When Heritage sold off his books, weren't there a few raw copies listed as Church books when there were already slabbed copies of those books out there that CGC had labeled as the Church copy? I may have that story bollixed up. Maybe Verzyl obtained some of McLaughlin's books when they were auctioned on Heritage? Edited July 9, 2018 by Sqeggs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robot Man Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 43 minutes ago, Sqeggs said: When Heritage sold off his books, weren't there a few raw copies listed as Church books when there were already slabbed copies of those books out there that CGC had labeled as the Church copy? I may have that story bollixed up. Maybe Verzyl obtained some of McLaughlin's books when they were auctioned on Heritage? Possibily, but I suspect he bought a lot from Chuck himself as did Redbeard. I'm also pretty sure Heritage had some of McLaughlin's "low end" Church copies ungraded in the auction. I remember being at McLaughlin's house I think with Redbeard one day and seeing a few old books on his coffee table just laying there. I asked him about them and he picked up one to show me. It was a first edition of Frankenstein autographed by Shelly! His house was just filled with killer stuff just laying around everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamstrange Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Sqeggs said: Maybe Verzyl obtained some of McLaughlin's books when they were auctioned on Heritage? He bought quite a few. I was sitting behind him at the auction in Baltimore. Sqeggs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telerites Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 13 hours ago, Robot Man said: It was a first edition of Frankenstein autographed by Shelly! Wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 The graded copy was sold on Heritage in 2004. The raw copy was sold as a FN- in the auction this thread refers to (closed July 1, 2018). Possible that the graded copy was cracked out and received the wear it has now? Doesn't seem too likely given that the graded copy has a dust shadow that isn't apparent on the raw copy. Possible that there were two Church copies? Or is the attribution on the raw copy wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
october Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Two different copies. Much more art on the bottom edge of the first book (the policeman's hand, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 10 hours ago, october said: Two different copies. Much more art on the bottom edge of the first book (the policeman's hand, etc). Yeah, I'm pretty sure these are distinct copies. Chuck didn't list FC 133 in his catalog (he listed the FCs under the name of the title character). He has FC 96 and FC 163 (both D. Tracy issues) listed as NM+. If I had to guess, I would think that the 9.6 White copy Heritage auctioned in 2004 is the Church copy and the raw FN- copy they auctioned earlier this month isn't actually from the Church collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted August 1, 2018 Author Share Posted August 1, 2018 A further thought as we see a continuing flow of Church books in Heritage auctions: The breaking up of this part of Veryzl's collection (if, in fact, that's where all these books are coming from) has certainly allowed many more collectors to pick up a Church copy of one their favorite runs. When the dust settles, ownership of the Church collection may be almost as widely dispersed as the Crippen collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_react Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 On 7/19/2018 at 9:28 PM, Sqeggs said: Yeah, I'm pretty sure these are distinct copies. Chuck didn't list FC 133 in his catalog (he listed the FCs under the name of the title character). He has FC 96 and FC 163 (both D. Tracy issues) listed as NM+. If I had to guess, I would think that the 9.6 White copy Heritage auctioned in 2004 is the Church copy and the raw FN- copy they auctioned earlier this month isn't actually from the Church collection. Yeah, I only have the 9.6 and no corresponding entry from the catalog https://github.com/roblarsen/Edgar-Church-Collection-Data/blob/master/src/D-F.csv#L1440 https://github.com/roblarsen/Edgar-Church-Collection-Data/blob/master/src/D-F.csv#L384 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tth2 Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 11 hours ago, Sqeggs said: A further thought as we see a continuing flow of Church books in Heritage auctions: The breaking up of this part of Veryzl's collection (if, in fact, that's where all these books are coming from) has certainly allowed many more collectors to pick up a Church copy of one their favorite runs. From one of their favorite runs? The books coming from Verzyl's collection are from such niche, esoteric titles that they may have made it easier for collectors to pick up a Church copy, but not sure if many are really from "favorite runs". rob_react 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted August 2, 2018 Author Share Posted August 2, 2018 10 hours ago, tth2 said: From one of their favorite runs? The books coming from Verzyl's collection are from such niche, esoteric titles that they may have made it easier for collectors to pick up a Church copy, but not sure if many are really from "favorite runs". Somehow I figured you'd be all over these examples from classic runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sqeggs Posted August 2, 2018 Author Share Posted August 2, 2018 20 hours ago, rob_react said: On 7/19/2018 at 9:28 PM, Sqeggs said: Yeah, I'm pretty sure these are distinct copies. Chuck didn't list FC 133 in his catalog (he listed the FCs under the name of the title character). He has FC 96 and FC 163 (both D. Tracy issues) listed as NM+. If I had to guess, I would think that the 9.6 White copy Heritage auctioned in 2004 is the Church copy and the raw FN- copy they auctioned earlier this month isn't actually from the Church collection. Yeah, I only have the 9.6 and no corresponding entry from the catalog https://github.com/roblarsen/Edgar-Church-Collection-Data/blob/master/src/D-F.csv#L1440 https://github.com/roblarsen/Edgar-Church-Collection-Data/blob/master/src/D-F.csv#L384 It makes me wonder whether we might see the buyers of some of these raw books submit them to CGC as Church copies with the Heritage listings as support for the attribution. Be a shame if that happened -- assuming, of course, that some of these have been wrongly identified by Heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_react Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 On 7/9/2018 at 7:30 PM, Robot Man said: Possibily, but I suspect he bought a lot from Chuck himself as did Redbeard. I'm also pretty sure Heritage had some of McLaughlin's "low end" Church copies ungraded in the auction. I remember being at McLaughlin's house I think with Redbeard one day and seeing a few old books on his coffee table just laying there. I asked him about them and he picked up one to show me. It was a first edition of Frankenstein autographed by Shelly! His house was just filled with killer stuff just laying around everywhere. I missed that anecdote previously. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
