Newton rings! 6 6

[Bomber-Bob]

6 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

I bit the bullet and just bought a new slab book last week.  Yep, it has Newton Rings, not a lot, but any is too many for me.  I couldn't see the oil slicks in the eBay image, but once in hand and in scans they're clearly there.  I've also noticed that my scans of the new slabbed book are darker & duller, perhaps due to the deeper well.  In hand, the colors are deeper and brighter, but I had to adjust my Photobucket settings to get closer to the actual color.  Of course I don't plan on keeping the book in the CGC slab.  Once burned, twice shy.  The only viable options are old label, raw or ...!

If anyone's curious, here's the new label CGC book (it's my second copy of this title in grade)...

 

I may be wrong but your new slab looks to be of the '1st generation' type of the new slab design, the one with the so called 'creep engine' that slowly squeezes the book to death. I am saying this because I do not see an inner well. If so, you do not want to keep it in that slab. Get it reslabbed as soon as possible. Don't worry about the Newton rings as they are harmless compared to this slab design.

[Cat-Man_America]

Thanks for pointing this out, Bomber-Bob.  Neither creep-engine nor oil slicks are acceptable.  When I want torture scenes, Schomburg and Timely is the way to go. I don't need my books tortured as well.  

[Mr. Lady Luck]

21 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

I hadn't noticed, but that is interesting.  You may well be correct.  I know that they are very concerned about the NR problem -- concerned enough that they have been sending some books to the other guys.  

Is it safe to assume that HA has let CGC know about their concerns regarding the NR problem?

[Sqeggs]

On 9/7/2018 at 7:13 AM, Mr. Lady Luck said:

Is it safe to assume that HA has let CGC know about their concerns regarding the NR problem?

I believe there was the proverbial "frank exchange of views."  A bystander or two may have been winged by the small arms fire. 

[Get Marwood & I]

9 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

I believe there was the proverbial "frank exchange of views."  A bystander or two may have been winged by the small arms fire. 

Go on 

[Sqeggs]

3 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Go on 

I know they were pretty discontented.  How can they not have been given the volume of books they both slab themselves and sell for consignors?  I'm not sure whether the recent adjustments to the slabbing techniques -- or whatever it is that seems to have ameliorated the problem -- have entirely satisfied them, but my impression is that they may not yet be entirely back on board.  Interesting, given the connections between the two companies. 

[Get Marwood & I]

2 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

I know they were pretty discontented.  How can they not have been given the volume of books they both slab themselves and sell for consignors?  I'm not sure whether the recent adjustments to the slabbing techniques -- or whatever it is that seems to have ameliorated the problem -- have entirely satisfied them, but my impression is that they may not yet be entirely back on board.  Interesting, given the connections between the two companies. 

You'd think CGC would want to solve the problem just to stop everyone going on about it. It's actually pretty tedious reading / hearing about it all the time now isn't it.

Nice use of 'ameliorated' by the way 

[Mr. Lady Luck]

< googles "ameliorated" >

[Cat-Man_America]

5 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

I know they were pretty discontented.  How can they not have been given the volume of books they both slab themselves and sell for consignors?  I'm not sure whether the recent adjustments to the slabbing techniques -- or whatever it is that seems to have ameliorated the problem -- have entirely satisfied them, but my impression is that they may not yet be entirely back on board.  Interesting, given the connections between the two companies. 

I understand discontent.  I'm still discontented about buying a book from an eBay seller that has Newton Rings.  However, it's not the sellers fault.  The close up images in an eBay thumbnail only go so far and the BIN price for a second highest graded copy of this gem was quite reasonable.  In a larger scan, like an official HA scan or one I've imaged from my HP Scanjet, the oil slicks show up clearly.  It's entirely possible that my second HIT #18 is in an older "creep engine" holder from two years ago, but I don't know that.  The book came up for sale late one night several weeks back.  I'd never seen this copy offered before, so as far as I know, it was recently encapsulated.  Anyway, my solution isn't to send it back to the grading service which screwed it up in the first place. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Cat-Man_America

[buttock]

9 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

I understand discontent.  I'm still discontented about buying a book from an eBay seller that has Newton Rings.  However, it's not the sellers fault.  The close up images in an eBay thumbnail only go so far and the BIN price for a second highest graded copy of this gem was quite reasonable.  In a larger scan, like an official HA scan or one I've imaged from my HP Scanjet, the oil slicks show up clearly.  It's entirely possible that my second HIT #18 is in an older "creep engine" holder from two years ago, but I don't know that.  The book came up for sale late one night several weeks back.  I'd never seen this copy offered before, so as far as I know, it was recently encapsulated.  Anyway, my solution isn't to send it back to the grading service which screwed it up in the first place. 

Why don't you just look at it to see if it is in a creep engine holder?

[Cat-Man_America]

8 hours ago, buttock said:

Why don't you just look at it to see if it is in a creep engine holder?

Does the label say creep engine on it? 

The obvious reason is the simplest one, ...all of the current CGC holders look the same to me because of the label.  Until recent purchases I've managed to avoid new label CGC holders.  I haven't examined any new label holders since the original creep engine & Newton Ring fiasco.  The label is a red flag.

I only have two books in new label holders, both acquired in the last month, which is a situation I intend to remedy at the earliest opportunity. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Cat-Man_America
.

[N e r V]

45 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Does the label say creep engine on it? 

The obvious reason is the simplest one, ...all of the current CGC holders look the same to me because of the label.  Until recent purchases I've managed to avoid CGC holders.  I haven't examined any new label holders since the original creep engine & Newton Ring fiasco.  The label is a red flag.

I only have two books in new label holders, both acquired in the last month, which is a situation I intend to remedy at the earliest opportunity. 

You can look up when it was slabbed however (the date) online.

Can anyone else chime in to the actual months the “old” new holder was in production before the updated changes? 

Having a range of dates (months) of the original production period could be super useful for estimating the chances of it being in the “old” new design holders.

[szav]

6 minutes ago, N e r V said:

You can look up when it was slabbed however (the date) online.

Can anyone else chime in to the actual months the “old” new holder was in production before the updated changes? 

Having a range of dates (months) of the original production period could be super useful for estimating the chances of it being in the “old” new design holders.

I think it was April - June of 2016.. but could be wrong.  I try to look out for these too. 

One thing that makes it even harder is that books that were fixed by being reholdered still show a grading date during this time period when you verify it by the serial number on the CGC main page....at least the 2 I had fixed in august of that year do. 

So it can be hard to prove to someone without a good eye that any particular book you have is no longer in a bad holder if the book's grade date is during that period.

Edited September 9, 2018 by szavisca

[Mr. Lady Luck]

The new (third generation) holder design was launched on April 4, 2016. There were several problems with the new holder including creep engine and excessive newton rings. In the summer of 2016, CGC went back to using inner-wells in the new holders, and this... ameliorated... the problems. The new holder fixes were a work in progress, so it's hard to pinpoint an exact date, But by August of 2016, everything seemed to be fine. I submitted many comics for both grading and reholdering between September 2016 thru April 2018 without any issues. During this time I've been extremely pleased with the new holders. Occasionally there were minor newton rings, but this has always been the case - even with the old holders.

Sometime around May or June of this year (2018), something started happening to make the newton rings excessively worse. i don't know whether it was a change in personnel, a change in process, a change in materials or something else. But I think it's important to keep this timeline in mind because it should help in finding a fix (assuming it hasn't been fixed already).

Edited September 9, 2018 by Mr. Lady Luck

[Kevin76]

NR's is plastic on plastic but I think they must have had a change in materials since it has gotten worse. Anyone ever ask them directly what they are doing to fix it?  Unless getting free reholders is the solution?  

[Get Marwood & I]

8 minutes ago, Kevin76 said:

Anyone ever ask them directly what they are doing to fix it? 

Yes, me.

Their full response is below. The extract from it which deals with the fix says:

Behind the scenes, we are constantly working to improve the CGC holder. Most recently, we have made a slight modification to the inner dimensions of our standard holder to accommodate the increasing variety of comic book sizes and paper stocks. In our testing, this minor modification was also shown to reduce the presence of the rainbow effect for many books. We did not want to share our findings until our thorough testing was complete, and now that it is, we are pleased to report that these modified holders have been fully integrated into our encapsulation process with very positive results.

Only time will tell if this 'most recent' change will reduce the presence of the rings. 

 

On 8/31/2018 at 9:13 PM, CGC Comics said:

Thank you for your feedback.

 

 

The “rainbow effect” or “Newton rings” are a normal occurrence when two different plastics (which have different refractive indexes) are placed together. It’s what you sometimes see on a smartphone screen protector or on the edges of an LCD screen. 

 

 

 

The rainbow effect has been seen in CGC holders since our first-generation holder was introduced nearly 20 years ago. This is a result of the inner sleeve (which holds the book) contacting the hard-plastic outer shell; the two different plastics have different refractive indexes and that sometimes creates a rainbow effect when they come into contact. A minor rainbow effect has always been within our tolerance. If anyone feels that they have a book that exhibits an extreme rainbow effect, however, we encourage you to contact our Customer Service at submissions@cgccomics.com.

 

 

 

Behind the scenes, we are constantly working to improve the CGC holder. Most recently, we have made a slight modification to the inner dimensions of our standard holder to accommodate the increasing variety of comic book sizes and paper stocks. In our testing, this minor modification was also shown to reduce the presence of the rainbow effect for many books. We did not want to share our findings until our thorough testing was complete, and now that it is, we are pleased to report that these modified holders have been fully integrated into our encapsulation process with very positive results.

 

 

 

CGC continues to research enhancements to its holders, including ones that may further reduce the rainbow effect, and we will keep you updated with any noteworthy developments.

 

 

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

Example of extreme rainbow effect:

 

 

[Sqeggs]

3 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Yes, me.

Their full response is below. The extract from it which deals with the fix says:

Behind the scenes, we are constantly working to improve the CGC holder. Most recently, we have made a slight modification to the inner dimensions of our standard holder to accommodate the increasing variety of comic book sizes and paper stocks. In our testing, this minor modification was also shown to reduce the presence of the rainbow effect for many books. We did not want to share our findings until our thorough testing was complete, and now that it is, we are pleased to report that these modified holders have been fully integrated into our encapsulation process with very positive results.

Only time will tell if this 'most recent' change will reduce ameliorate the presence of the rings. 

 

 

FTFY 

I think that we're probably back to the status quo ante -- NRs will still be there on some books, but the ghastly problem we had for a while is behind us.

Of course, there are still a lot of books out there with unsightly NRs that need to be reholdered.  The volume of books CGC slabs these days means any glitch results in a lot of flawed books being sent out.

[Sqeggs]

9 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

15 hours ago, buttock said:

Why don't you just look at it to see if it is in a creep engine holder?

Does the label say creep engine on it? 

The obvious reason is the simplest one, ...all of the current CGC holders look the same to me because of the label.  Until recent purchases I've managed to avoid new label CGC holders.  I haven't examined any new label holders since the original creep engine & Newton Ring fiasco.  The label is a red flag.

I only have two books in new label holders, both acquired in the last month, which is a situation I intend to remedy at the earliest opportunity. 

It's pretty easy to see whether the slab has an inner well holding the book in place.  The creepy creep engine slabs didn't.  Of course, it doesn't much matter if you're going to get the book reholdered (or unholdered?) anyway. 

[buttock]

10 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Does the label say creep engine on it? 

The obvious reason is the simplest one, ...all of the current CGC holders look the same to me because of the label.  Until recent purchases I've managed to avoid new label CGC holders.  I haven't examined any new label holders since the original creep engine & Newton Ring fiasco.  The label is a red flag.

I only have two books in new label holders, both acquired in the last month, which is a situation I intend to remedy at the earliest opportunity. 

Look and see if it's in a well.  If you're going to eliminate a product entirely, you should at least know what it is that you're eliminating.  

[Get Marwood & I]

3 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

FTFY 

I think that we're probably back to the status quo ante -- NRs will still be there on some books, but the ghastly problem we had for a while is behind us.

Of course, there are still a lot of books out there with unsightly NRs that need to be reholdered.  The volume of books CGC slabs these days means any glitch results in a lot of flawed books being sent out.

I dare you to change the thread title to 'The Amelioration of Newton Rings'. Go on Sqeggs......do it! 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Get Marwood & I
Spelleded it rong ?