COUNTERFEITED CGC Graded Book? 0

[cowboynightshift]

First time posting on here so I apologize if I'm doing this the wrong way.  I recently bought a 9.8 graded copy of Doomsday Clock #1 through ebay.  The seller seemed to be very reputable.  I just received it today and noticed that the book was sliding around inside the slab as well as a sizable gash on the side of the slab  It looks like someone pried open the case to take out the book.  The book matches the CGC label in terms of the issue title, author, number, etc. but I'm not sure if it's the 9.8 version of the book as there is minor damage to both of the corners of the spine (see pictures).  It doesn't seem like damage that could have been done in transit.  But maybe I'm wrong?  I was thinking of trying to go after the seller for a refund.  Advice would be appreciated.

[Mystafo]

The book moving in the holder does suck, but it is not unheard of.  I don't think its a counterfeit of any type...CGC holders have casting goobers left over from when the cases are molded and snapped apart. It is almost impossible to pry open a new type of case without cracking it or breaking the posts.

[cowboynightshift]

12 minutes ago, Mystafo said:

The book moving in the holder does suck, but it is not unheard of.  I don't think its a counterfeit of any type...CGC holders have casting goobers left over from when the cases are molded and snapped apart. It is almost impossible to pry open a new type of case without cracking it or breaking the posts.

Good to know.  I just recently started getting into grading so this was very helpful, thanks.

[Mystafo]

You got it!  Welcome to the boards!

[Bomber-Bob]

11 minutes ago, cowboynightshift said:

Good to know.  I just recently started getting into grading so this was very helpful, thanks.

Though I doubt that the slab was opened and the book switched, from what I can see of the book it is NOT a 9.8 . The corners you show look terrible, the vertex of the spine looks terrible. It may be that all these flaws were 'acceptable' to CGC because they were considered bindery in nature = came off the line like this. It may be that the book sustained damage from moving around inside the slab. In either case, you obviously don't like the book (I don't like the book either). Trust me, you will never look at this book again without feeling bad about it. I would return it and get your money back now. Don't wait. 

[JollyComics]

It's your feeling and gut. If you don't feel right and follow your feeling/gut, just send it back.  I don't think that book is either qualified for 9.8 and don't understand why someone unwittingly removed it from the slab with the 9.8 label.  The case doesn't look good to me either.  Return it and get your money back just like Bomber-Bob said.

[Red84]

How do the pictures look of the book on eBay? Is any of this damage visible? Did the seller post front and back scans/photos?

[W16227]

13 minutes ago, Red84 said:

How do the pictures look of the book on eBay? Is any of this damage visible? Did the seller post front and back scans/photos?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/132677826969?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l10137

 

pretty sure this is it —- the back image is not that great but you can see the white from the corner damage

 

the seller does not acccept returns - so you could ask them - but likely would have to pony up shipping at a minimum which given the books cost might be a stretch.... migh be able to file a “not as described” claim - but might be tough given the images in the sale.  I looked over several others auctions for the same book - I do not see the corner damage but still might be considered “production” issues by CGC.......

[MadGenius]

The book wasn't switched out. The new cases are pretty much tamper-proof. if it was opened, it would be very obvious. I'm thinking the grade is also legit and the book wasn't damaged inside the case. The corners, while somewhat unsightly, would be considered bindery tears by CGC and thus A-Okay on a 9.8 book. Is this worth a return to the seller? Well, if the book wasn't damaged in transit and there aren't any shenanigans with tampering then it seems like you got exactly what you paid for - a comic graded CGC 9.8. If CGC didn't grade this one strict enough, I'm not sure how that's on the seller.

[cowboynightshift]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Though I doubt that the slab was opened and the book switched, from what I can see of the book it is NOT a 9.8 . The corners you show look terrible, the vertex of the spine looks terrible. It may be that all these flaws were 'acceptable' to CGC because they were considered bindery in nature = came off the line like this. It may be that the book sustained damage from moving around inside the slab. In either case, you obviously don't like the book (I don't like the book either). Trust me, you will never look at this book again without feeling bad about it. I would return it and get your money back now. Don't wait. 

 

38 minutes ago, JollyComics said:

It's your feeling and gut. If you don't feel right and follow your feeling/gut, just send it back.  I don't think that book is either qualified for 9.8 and don't understand why someone unwittingly removed it from the slab with the 9.8 label.  The case doesn't look good to me either.  Return it and get your money back just like Bomber-Bob said.

Thank you both for the input.  I agree with both of you.  Definitely getting my money back.

 

36 minutes ago, Red84 said:

How do the pictures look of the book on eBay? Is any of this damage visible? Did the seller post front and back scans/photos?

Very straight forward front and back photos.  I can see the damage now but I honestly didn't pay much attention when I got it.  I definitely should have but I didn't think this was going to be a big deal as the issue isn't really very valuable yet.

Edited July 5, 2018 by cowboynightshift

[Bomber-Bob]

47 minutes ago, MadGenius said:

The book wasn't switched out. The new cases are pretty much tamper-proof. if it was opened, it would be very obvious. I'm thinking the grade is also legit and the book wasn't damaged inside the case. The corners, while somewhat unsightly, would be considered bindery tears by CGC and thus A-Okay on a 9.8 book. Is this worth a return to the seller? Well, if the book wasn't damaged in transit and there aren't any shenanigans with tampering then it seems like you got exactly what you paid for - a comic graded CGC 9.8. If CGC didn't grade this one strict enough, I'm not sure how that's on the seller.

Though I believe you are spot on with your assessment, I just can't accept the A-Okay with CGC part. Bindery or not, I don't think anyone would be happy owning this as a 9.8 . With all the complaints we hear about CGC being too strict in assigning 9.8's, I look at this book and think otherwise. It is not fair to put these type of fugly, bindery flawed books into the marketplace. Sure, the submitter is happy, but ultimately the buyer gets an inferior product. But with all that said, you are correct, it's really not on the seller.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Maybe a little perspective is needed? if the book linked is the book in this thread, nobody made any money on this transaction. In fact, when all costs are considered, it's almost certainly a loss.

That's not the buyer's fault or responsibility...but obviously no one is switching books or tampering with cases at this price point.

Interestingly enough, the UPC suggests this is a variant, but the label does not mention it.

[cowboynightshift]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Maybe a little perspective is needed? if the book linked is the book in this thread, nobody made any money on this transaction. In fact, when all costs are considered, it's almost certainly a loss.

That's not the buyer's fault or responsibility...but obviously no one is switching books or tampering with cases at this price point.

Interestingly enough, the UPC suggests this is a variant, but the label does not mention it.

Yeah a switching of the book didn't make sense to me but neither did the damage that came with it.  I'm new to the game so I just wanted to get other opinions.  I also noticed that about the variant cover and the label.  I looked at others and they all seem to be like that.

[Red84]

13 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Maybe a little perspective is needed? if the book linked is the book in this thread, nobody made any money on this transaction. In fact, when all costs are considered, it's almost certainly a loss.

That's not the buyer's fault or responsibility...but obviously no one is switching books or tampering with cases at this price point.

Interestingly enough, the UPC suggests this is a variant, but the label does not mention it.

That kind of begs the question of whether there were 2 books submitted to CGC, one 9.8 worthy regular version of the book and one less than 9.8 worthy variant version, and possibly the 2 labels were mistakenly swapped during encapsulation. It's happened before with the NM98 and Hulk 181 that was posted about a year ago.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Red84 said:

That kind of begs the question of whether there were 2 books submitted to CGC, one 9.8 worthy regular version of the book and one less than 9.8 worthy variant version, and possibly the 2 labels were mistakenly swapped during encapsulation. It's happened before with the NM98 and Hulk 181 that was posted about a year ago.

It does. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened.

[MadGenius]

The lesson learned here is not all CGC 9.8 books are created equal. Buy the book and not the label. Of course, one could wonder why some of the nicer looking 9.8s are not 9.9s, but that's a conversation for another day.

[Turtle]

@cowboynightshift If you do pursue the refund route, my personal recommendation is that you respectfully request a refund and offer to foot the return shipping bill.  It seems that from the pictures shown, the reason you're returning it is visible in the auction listing, even if it isn't terribly obvious.  The seller did nothing wrong here and if you don't cover the shipping, he'll not only be out time, but the return shipping cost.  I think return shipping on a single slab is a cheap price to pay for a lesson learned...I bet you'll carefully examine the corners in ebay photos from here on out, won't you?  Don't feel bad.  We've all been there. 

Hopefully the seller will see that you're making an effort and return your money upon receipt of the book with no hassle.  There's always the chance he'll flip out; especially considering his "no refunds" policy.  If that happens, you can file a claim with ebay saying that the book appears damaged and doesn't appear to be a 9.8 anymore and thus is not as described.  Ebay often sides with the buyer and will likely force him to refund your money. 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Turtle
Typo...D'oh!

[MadGenius]

4 minutes ago, Turtle said:

@cowboynightshift If you do pursue the refund route, my personal recommendation is that you respectfully request a refund and offer to foot the return shipping bill.  It seems that from the pictures shown, the reason you're returning it is visible in the auction listing, even if it isn't terribly obvious.  The seller did nothing wrong here and if you don't cover the shipping, he'll not only be out time, but the return shipping cost.  I think return shipping on a single slab is a cheap price to pay for a lesson learned...I bet you'll carefully examine the corners in ebay photos from here on out, won't you?  Don't feel bad.  We've all been there. 

Hopefully the seller will see that you're making an effort and return your money upon receipt of the book with no hassle.  There's always the chance we'll flip out; especially considering his "no refunds" policy.  If that happens, you can file a claim with ebay saying that the book appears damaged and doesn't appear to be a 9.8 anymore and thus is not as described.  Ebay often sides with the buyer and will likely force him to refund your money. 

IMO, the issue doesn't warrant a return. The buyer got exactly what he paid for. The bindery tears are visible in the photo and the seller delivered the exact item pictured safely. I think the buyer needs to eat this one. If he doesn't like the book, he can sell it and try to recoup his money. I don't think the seller should be held responsible for a soft grade by CGC.

[Turtle]

1 minute ago, MadGenius said:

IMO, the issue doesn't warrant a return. The buyer got exactly what he paid for. The bindery tears are visible in the photo and the seller delivered the exact item pictured safely. I think the buyer needs to eat this one. If he doesn't like the book, he can sell it and try to recoup his money. I don't think the seller should be held responsible for a soft grade by CGC.

I actually agree with you.  I think disagreeing with the CGC-assigned grade where no in-slab damage seems to have occurred is a pretty flimsy reason for a return. 

If I were in the situation and the slab arrived undamaged and the comic exhibited no signs of SCS (shaken comic syndrome) but I wasn't happy with the item overall, I'd likely list it for sale myself. 

I always try to put myself in the other person's shoes in these situations.  That's why my initial post noted that the seller did nothing wrong.  An undamaged 9.8 slab was delivered. 

I wrote what I wrote because it seemed that the buyer had already mentally committed to returning the book. 

[Turtle]

I would also say that as a seller, even if I felt this excuse were flimsy, I'd accept a return without hassle.  Once the book was returned and the refund was processed, I'd block the buyer and move on with my life.