ASM #33 Cover Different Colors? 2 2

[James J Johnson]

7 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

No kidding.

Prove that and that the number was higher than normal.

I wasn't calling you a liar, I was calling you an insufficiently_thoughtful_person. Can you answer my questions with anything intelligent and relevant?

I wasn't planning on turning this into a tug-of-war. Wouldn't make sense for me. Tugging is entirely your domain and expertise, no argument from me there. Let's do this. I'll retire from this thread. You take over and do whatever you wish, as always. You win yet again!

[Lazyboy]

7 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

Perhaps these "highly unusual" things aren't as uncommon as we'd like to believe...

I am not familiar with Blazing Combat, but do you have a list of comics that were not distributed because they were labeled "unpatriotic" by the US military?

[The Lions Den]

1 minute ago, Lazyboy said:

I am not familiar with Blazing Combat, but do you have a list of comics that were not distributed because they were labeled "unpatriotic" by the US military?

That's the only one I'm aware of. I used it as an example because it shows that the system can be manipulated to either help someone or hurt someone. It would seem this system isn't much different...

[Jeffro.]

13 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

13 hours ago, Jerkfro said:

I think the problem is it's not always clear who is correct and who isn't. The knowledge bandied about is anecdotal in many cases. I tend to give the person making the claim the benefit of the doubt but unfortunately there is no way to substantiate it. There have been a lot of people on this board over the years presenting stuff as fact with no ability to prove those facts. Neither you nor I can confirm or deny what James J Johnson is saying. 

I tend to believe people who actually have experience in whatever subject they're talking about. That's one of the reasons I believe JJJ. He may not be able to prove any of this, but based on my experience, what he says has the ring of truth to it. 

How do you know they're being truthful about that experience from what is essentially a stranger on the internet? Do you know JJJ personally? How do I know that you (or anybody else) is truthful? I don't know you. I don't know JJJ. I don't know Lazyboy.  

Please keep in mind, I'm not accusing anyone of being a liar. I'm just fascinated by how easily people believe what they read on a message board because the writer appears to have some knowledge. Just because there is, as you said in an earlier post, a "ring of truth" doesn't mean that it's true. The best poker players will never let you know what they're holding, or what they're not holding   

Edited July 9, 2018 by Jerkfro

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, Jerkfro said:

How do you know they're being truthful about that experience from what is essentially a stranger on the internet? Do you know JJJ personally? How do I know that you (or anybody else) is truthful? I don't know you. I don't know JJJ. I don't know Lazyboy.  

Please keep in mind, I'm not accusing anyone of being a liar. I'm just fascinated by how easily people believe what they read on a message board because the writer appears to have some knowledge. Just because there is, as you said in an earlier post, a "ring of truth" doesn't mean that it's true. The best poker players will never let you know what they're holding, or what they're not holding   

And some poker players know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run...

[James J Johnson]

10 hours ago, Jerkfro said:

How do you know they're being truthful about that experience from what is essentially a stranger on the internet? Do you know JJJ personally? How do I know that you (or anybody else) is truthful? I don't know you. I don't know JJJ. I don't know Lazyboy.  

Please keep in mind, I'm not accusing anyone of being a liar. I'm just fascinated by how easily people believe what they read on a message board because the writer appears to have some knowledge. Just because there is, as you said in an earlier post, a "ring of truth" doesn't mean that it's true. The best poker players will never let you know what they're holding, or what they're not holding   

The only person on earth that you can count on to always tell you the truth is yourself, and most can't even be honest with themselves. But that's a whole different issue than comics. I stated some of what I learned by personal conversations with insiders from back in the day. Not everything though. That would be foolish for anyone in pursuit of the same pieces that everybody else is looking for and trying to gain an edge on to share info that might work against them in the pursuit of those pieces. What I shared is but a kernel from the cob. You can choose to put whatever faith you wish to invest into what I shared, to completely rebuke it, as tug-master LazyBoy does, branding me a liar after every word of every sentence, trying to turn every post into a petty squabble, or, you can do your own research with my shared info as the basis, and decide which is fact, if any, and which is fiction, if any.

 

[The Lions Den]

54 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

The only person on earth that you can count on to always tell you the truth is yourself, and most can't even be honest with themselves. But that's a whole different issue than comics. I stated some of what I learned by personal conversations with insiders from back in the day. Not everything though. That would be foolish for anyone in pursuit of the same pieces that everybody else is looking for and trying to gain an edge on to share info that might work against them in the pursuit of those pieces. What I shared is but a kernel from the cob. You can choose to put whatever faith you wish to invest into what I shared, to completely rebuke it, as tug-master LazyBoy does, branding me a liar after every word of every sentence, trying to turn every post into a petty squabble, or, you can do your own research with my shared info as the basis, and decide which is fact, if any, and which is fiction, if any.

 

Well said, sir. I always appreciate any insight into the history of this hobby, because for me, the historical aspect of the hobby is just as interesting as the books themselves...   

[oakman29]

On 7/7/2018 at 8:27 AM, The Lions Den said:

Another one of Ditko's classic Spidey covers...beautiful work. IMO, that CGC label is missing this key comment: "Classic cover and story".

I completely agree. This book is probably the best book of the entire ASM run. It certainly is a key in my book.

[namisgr]

That there's variation in the color printing process for SA Marvels is also well established.  There are numerous examples of SA issues with marked differences in color palette owing not to any problem with fading or major changes in circulation numbers, but rather variations in the ink blends used to make certain colors and their changes over the course of the printing process.  Other times, there are marked differences in the intensity of the cover colors (the 'color strikes') rather than in the color palette itself.

 

Edited July 10, 2018 by namisgr

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, namisgr said:

That there's variation in the color printing process for SA Marvels is also well established.  There are numerous examples of SA issues with marked differences in color palette owing not to any problem with fading or major changes in circulation numbers, but rather variations in the ink blends used to make certain colors and their changes over the course of the printing process.  Other times, there are marked differences in the intensity of the cover colors (the 'color strikes') rather than in the color palette itself.

 

This could certainly explain some of the oddities I've encountered over the years...

[porcupine48]

@Aman619

[JollyComics]

Don't forget the scanners have different calibrations too!  All scanners show slight color different.

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, JollyComics said:

Don't forget the scanners have different calibrations too!  All scanners show slight color different.

Yes, scanners and monitors can be calibrated differently or the default brightness askew from another. That's why there's no substitute for in hand examination because the color variations go beyond the electronics. Only by careful examination of Avengers 24 does that become evident. One type has a black print slash and two types don't. There are glitches between print runs on double and triple print run Marvels that like the Avengers 24, have dots or other effects, and those that have a different color due to a different mixture. For instance, Fantastic Four 48's three different color schemes as well as small printing glitches that identify each printing from another.

[namisgr]

1 hour ago, JollyComics said:

Don't forget the scanners have different calibrations too!  All scanners show slight color different.

That's a good point.  It's not always the scanner, though.  Same scanner and almost identical image processing settings:

Edited July 10, 2018 by namisgr

[Lazyboy]

23 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

The only person on earth that you can count on to always tell you the truth is yourself, and most can't even be honest with themselves. But that's a whole different issue than comics. I stated some of what I learned by personal conversations with insiders from back in the day. Not everything though. That would be foolish for anyone in pursuit of the same pieces that everybody else is looking for and trying to gain an edge on to share info that might work against them in the pursuit of those pieces. What I shared is but a kernel from the cob. You can choose to put whatever faith you wish to invest into what I shared, to completely rebuke it, as tug-master LazyBoy does, branding me a liar after every word of every sentence, trying to turn every post into a petty squabble, or, you can do your own research with my shared info as the basis, and decide which is fact, if any, and which is fiction, if any.

 

I think it's just great that you have the time to insult me, but no time to respond to my questions.

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

I think it's just great that you have the time to insult me, but no time to respond to my questions.

What some may view as an insult, others may see as an honorable mention. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or some such thing, I suppose. 

[Aman619]

5 hours ago, namisgr said:

That's a good point.  It's not always the scanner, though.  Same scanner and almost identical image processing settings:

This one is easy.  The difference between the two background purples is that the second one was printed in the run with more cyan/blue ink.  Each ink varies in intensity during a press run.  The purple black round they were shooting for was correctly printed in the bottom image.  It’s made of equal percentages of magenta and cyan. Probably 100% of each.

but in the first example the cyan plate was under inked as often happens early and late in a run until the press men get all the inks in the proper balance. Look at the people on the bottom and you see in the more purple cover that their faces are a much deeper blue in the darker areas lime the right side of the guys face in lower right corner.

you can also see how the green was affected by more blue ink.  Green is achieved from yellow and cyan inks. 

Finally, take a look at the pink/magenta areas like the edges of the burst around the green figure.  They are actually a deeper red in the first cover, signifying that on these covers, one was low cyan but had extra magenta, while the other was the other way around, causing the huge disparity in background color...

[Aman619]

As for the Avengers covers, the black spot on some copies but not others really just looked like a piece of something that got on the black plate, took on black ink, and dropped a mark for as long as it stayed there until it fell off (stuck to) onto one of the covers. Once it was gone — no more black marks!

also James Jameson to my ears knows what he’s talking about. Printing comics and distributing them wasn’t rocket science... these sold for a dime! Who cared how they printed. Many were over printed for various reasons back then, and when they were returned to the distribs, or never ordered by stores and newsstands they piled up crating what we now know as warehouse finds. ( though I believe it was more like since comics were returnable, the sellers did not actually order or decide how many they received because they were selling them but only charged for how many sold!   Newsstands didn’t buy the magazines they sold. They were taken back when the trucks brought the new books... taken to storage and forgotten, but rarely tossed into the garbage.  This was way before recycling too.

[namisgr]

4 hours ago, Aman619 said:

in the first example the cyan plate was under inked as often happens early and late in a run until the press men get all the inks in the proper balance.

Thanks for confirming, this was mentioned earlier on the page: There are numerous examples of SA issues with marked differences in color palette owing not to any problem with fading or major changes in circulation numbers, but rather variations in the ink blends used to make certain colors and their changes over the course of the printing process.  

The differences in color palette in many cases occur across a given print run, and not between separate printings as claimed earlier.  You agree?

Edited July 11, 2018 by namisgr

[JollyComics]

8 hours ago, Aman619 said:

As for the Avengers covers, the black spot on some copies but not others really just looked like a piece of something that got on the black plate, took on black ink, and dropped a mark for as long as it stayed there until it fell off (stuck to) onto one of the covers. Once it was gone — no more black marks!

also James Jameson to my ears knows what he’s talking about. Printing comics and distributing them wasn’t rocket science... these sold for a dime! Who cared how they printed. Many were over printed for various reasons back then, and when they were returned to the distribs, or never ordered by stores and newsstands they piled up crating what we now know as warehouse finds. ( though I believe it was more like since comics were returnable, the sellers did not actually order or decide how many they received because they were selling them but only charged for how many sold!   Newsstands didn’t buy the magazines they sold. They were taken back when the trucks brought the new books... taken to storage and forgotten, but rarely tossed into the garbage.  This was way before recycling too.

Perfect examples here: