Creator Signing Fees: unsubbed vs CGC subbed (rant) 1 1

[ExNihilo]

(TL;DR at the bottom)

Apologies in advance for the rant, but it's been bothering me for two days and I just need to get it off my chest.  I understand that nothing can be done about the following situation but still wanted to at least express myself.  For those who are going to say "this is why I don't understand the need for people to acquire sigs, its a waste of money, blah blah blah."  I already know your position and you can probably save yourself the trouble and move on to the next thread.  Not that it matters, but I'm going to omit names simply because I don't think it's particularly relevant.  To be honest, you guys are so savvy, I know you'll have it figured out anyways.  With that out of the way, here we go...

With the help of a facilitator, I got a pre-signed book from a creator for $50.  The book was then walked to the CGC booth for Signature Series submission.  But, it turns out this creator (like many others) has a separate rate for signing books submitted to CGC for grading.  So another $30 was handed over to the creator, the book was walked back to CGC, and submitted.

Now, the more I thought about it, the more it began to bother me.  Pre-signed books are routinely advertised as "including signature fees, a $20 value".  And with the $30 tacked on, that means I effectively paid $50 for signing fees.  Now, I know if you were to take an unsigned book to this creator during one of their signing windows, the cost would be $30 whether it was for your personal collection or whether you planned to submit for CGC grading.  Which means, I've somehow been charged a $20 premium.  I thought about it this way:

Customer A buys an unsigned book at the table for $20 and then pays $30 to have it signed and submitted to CGC.  Customer A paid $50.

Customer B buys the same book pre-signed at the table for $40.  They then pay $30 and submit to CGC.  Customer B paid $70.

Both books end up the same, signed and submitted to CGC for grading, but Customer B paid a $20 premium.  This is where the confusion arises in my head.  Logically, the $20 value associated with the signature on the pre-signed book should be applied towards the $30 signing fee for subbed books and the difference is what is owed (in this example, $10).

Now, I know a lot of creators charge different amounts for unsubbed/subbed signings, key books, etc.  In those instances, the transaction plays out as such:

Customer A and B bring copies of books to be signed.  Customer A pays $20 and does not sub.  Customer B pays $30 and does sub.

Customer B does not pay $20, then another $30 (for a total of $50) for the right to submit to CGC.  And that's the difference that I am struggling to contend with.  To me, the total signing fee in my case should be $30 and not the $50 that I ultimately paid.

Now, there are a few counterpoints that I'll just throw out there:

1) The creator can price their books however they want.

2) There are no unsigned copies of this book (all books were pre-signed exclusively for SDCC), so the creator can just claim the cost of the book was $50 and the value of the signature was free because the creator was being generous to the fans.

3) That's the nature of the business.  That's how it's been for years and I'm just new to this and haven't dealt with this before.

For (1) and (3), I've got no arguments against those.  But for (2), I go back to my first example where getting a sig on any other unsigned book would be cheaper than subbing a pre-signed book.  Had there been an opportunity to buy an unsigned book (as there is with every other book of theirs), I would have certainly gone that route and saved myself some money.  But despite that, the principle of the matter is that the CGC subbed signing fees aren't even equal to each other since I paid $50 in signature fees for the right to sub, while any other book it's $30.

By now you're probably thinking, "it's an extra $20.  Get over it and move on."  Except I was asked to dish out another $30 above what I initially paid.  And it wasn't just one book.  It was 9. 

TL;DR I bought 9 pre-signed books and was charged a $30 signature fee to be able to submit to CGC in addition to $50 for the pre-signed book which already had a signing fee (valued at $20) baked into the cost.  Creator signing fee is normally $30.  I Feel like I got ripped off on signing fees and should have only been charged a $10 premium instead of $30.  Frustrated with creators signing fee policy.  Thoughts on my particular situation and on the subject in general welcome.

[ExNihilo]

Some of you are probably thinking, "it's your own fault, you could have bought the pre-signed books and then just not submitted them and saved yourself $270."

Yes, this is true, but if I get a signed book, I really would prefer it be authenticated and slabbed through CGC.  It provides a level of assurance as to the authenticity that is otherwise unmatched currently should I find the need to sell off my collection down the road.

You might also be thinking "you should have thought about this in advance."

This was my first time buying pre-signed books and then directly submitting to CGC for a yellow label.  I didn't know another $30 would be tacked on per book at the time of the initial purchase.  By then, the books were already in hand and I didn't want to waste my facilitator's time.  SDCC is the biggest con of the year and I'm sure they have better things to do than to wait on me.  Not to mention, I can be a very calculated thinker at times and take a few days to really mull things over.

Edited July 20, 2018 by ExNihilo

[Ryan.]

After my experience in Boston least year, where virtually every creator had an upcharge for CGC and a general sense of indignation towards fans requesting a signature or sketch, the SS program, to me, has lost most of its luster. It makes the creators ornery, even when they benefit financially, which in turn makes the fans feel like they are doing something wrong.

If I can't enjoy the creation of the collectible then I won't enjoy the owning of it, and thus the whole thing becomes pointless. Therefore, I've mostly moved on to spending my money elsewhere. I suppose the creators are getting what they want: no fat stacks for anyone.

[kHAoS]

8 hours ago, ExNihilo said:

Some of you are probably thinking, "it's your own fault, you could have bought the pre-signed books and then just not submitted them and saved yourself $270."

Yes, this is true, but if I get a signed book, I really would prefer it be authenticated and slabbed through CGC.  It provides a level of assurance as to the authenticity that is otherwise unmatched currently should I find the need to sell off my collection down the road.

You might also be thinking "you should have thought about this in advance."

This was my first time buying pre-signed books and then directly submitting to CGC for a yellow label.  I didn't know another $30 would be tacked on per book at the time of the initial purchase.  By then, the books were already in hand and I didn't want to waste my facilitator's time.  SDCC is the biggest con of the year and I'm sure they have better things to do than to wait on me.  Not to mention, I can be a very calculated thinker at times and take a few days to really mull things over.

it’s all fuzzy math or dirty pool. JSC tacks in the $30 CGC fee for no other reason than he can and the customer at the point of sale has no other option than to grab ankles and thank him for it. basically all the books are pre-signed and the hologram seal says it’s the real mc coy, except if i don’t pay the $30 upcharge, all of a sudden CGC says it’s no longer real. JSC has cornered his particular market and you pay the vig if you want to play.

i don’t agree with it, but it’s obviously working for him, so more power to him for running his business.

[ExNihilo]

6 hours ago, Ryan. said:

After my experience in Boston least year, where virtually every creator had an upcharge for CGC and a general sense of indignation towards fans requesting a signature or sketch, the SS program, to me, has lost most of its luster. It makes the creators ornery, even when they benefit financially, which in turn makes the fans feel like they are doing something wrong.

If I can't enjoy the creation of the collectible then I won't enjoy the owning of it, and thus the whole thing becomes pointless. Therefore, I've mostly moved on to spending my money elsewhere. I suppose the creators are getting what they want: no fat stacks for anyone.

Unfortunately, the CGC upcharge seems to be where the business is heading.  Creators see that CGC SS books are selling for more money than unverified signatures and so they charge more.  I get that creators see an opportunity to make some extra money and they grab it.  It's unfortunate for the fans, but so long as people are willing to pay it, there's obviously no reason for them not to bill in such a way.  By that same token, I wholeheartedly agree that if the experience of getting a signature from your favorite creators is tarnished by bad experiences whether personal or because of the perceived greed behind it, it negatively impacts the emotional resonance a book has.  This experience has certainly soured how I feel about the books I purchased.  When I see them now, I'll just feel like I was ripped off and won't be able to fully enjoy the covers the way I had hoped.

1 hour ago, kHAoS said:

it’s all fuzzy math or dirty pool. JSC tacks in the $30 CGC fee for no other reason than he can and the customer at the point of sale has no other option than to grab ankles and thank him for it. basically all the books are pre-signed and the hologram seal says it’s the real mc coy, except if i don’t pay the $30 upcharge, all of a sudden CGC says it’s no longer real. JSC has cornered his particular market and you pay the vig if you want to play.

i don’t agree with it, but it’s obviously working for him, so more power to him for running his business.

It's definitely fuzzy math.  I think part of the reason it bothers me so much is because it feels like I've been lied to.  As you said between when the book was purchased at JSC's booth to when it was initially brought to the CGC table for submission, there was no question as to the authenticity of the signature since the CGC witness was on hand to witness the handling of the books.  But suddenly CGC is asking for a card confirming payment of signature fees otherwise it doesn't qualify for S/S.  The people handling JSC's booth certainly didn't care at the time of the initial purchase, otherwise they would have required payment up front.  Instead it was CGC who said "nope, you gotta go back".  And I understand it's just CGC respecting the policies of the creators (I think that's where the dispute with Jim Starlin arose was because Jim wasn't getting paid his CGC signing rate by some fans).  But I think CGC is also partially culpable in this because it's clear that not all signing fees are the same and they're not taking responsibility for the system they've helped create.

[kHAoS]

45 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

Unfortunately, the CGC upcharge seems to be where the business is heading.  Creators see that CGC SS books are selling for more money than unverified signatures and so they charge more.  I get that creators see an opportunity to make some extra money and they grab it.  It's unfortunate for the fans, but so long as people are willing to pay it, there's obviously no reason for them not to bill in such a way.  By that same token, I wholeheartedly agree that if the experience of getting a signature from your favorite creators is tarnished by bad experiences whether personal or because of the perceived greed behind it, it negatively impacts the emotional resonance a book has.  This experience has certainly soured how I feel about the books I purchased.  When I see them now, I'll just feel like I was ripped off and won't be able to fully enjoy the covers the way I had hoped.

It's definitely fuzzy math.  I think part of the reason it bothers me so much is because it feels like I've been lied to.  As you said between when the book was purchased at JSC's booth to when it was initially brought to the CGC table for submission, there was no question as to the authenticity of the signature since the CGC witness was on hand to witness the handling of the books.  But suddenly CGC is asking for a card confirming payment of signature fees otherwise it doesn't qualify for S/S.  The people handling JSC's booth certainly didn't care at the time of the initial purchase, otherwise they would have required payment up front.  Instead it was CGC who said "nope, you gotta go back".  And I understand it's just CGC respecting the policies of the creators (I think that's where the dispute with Jim Starlin arose was because Jim wasn't getting paid his CGC signing rate by some fans).  But I think CGC is also partially culpable in this because it's clear that not all signing fees are the same and they're not taking responsibility for the system they've helped create.

i've seen this situation play-out in front of me and i didn’t agree with it. i saw 2 guys pay for their books and one guy was told that he had to pay the $30 charge per book and further down the line, the second guy didn’t pay the up-charge. the CGC witness gets flagged to come over and walks both guys back to the CGC booth. maybe CGC witness made the second guy go back and pay the up-charge, i didn’t stick around long enough to see how it ultimately played-out. at the end of the day, i just want to see processes being applied consistently. the up-charge isn’t clearly defined and it’s not common knowledge.

the unspoken gripe is JSC gets his cut no matter if the book comes back as a 9.0 or a 9.8. the submitter bears most of the risk and i’m fairly sure most folks would prefer a 9.8 grade over 9.0. 

[ExNihilo]

10 hours ago, kHAoS said:

i've seen this situation play-out in front of me and i didn’t agree with it. i saw 2 guys pay for their books and one guy was told that he had to pay the $30 charge per book and further down the line, the second guy didn’t pay the up-charge. the CGC witness gets flagged to come over and walks both guys back to the CGC booth. maybe CGC witness made the second guy go back and pay the up-charge, i didn’t stick around long enough to see how it ultimately played-out. at the end of the day, i just want to see processes being applied consistently. the up-charge isn’t clearly defined and it’s not common knowledge.

the unspoken gripe is JSC gets his cut no matter if the book comes back as a 9.0 or a 9.8. the submitter bears most of the risk and i’m fairly sure most folks would prefer a 9.8 grade over 9.0. 

In all likelihood, the 2nd guy had to go back and pay the $30 upcharge before returning to the CGC table for submission.  I was told by CGC (I made several calls to them when I was trying to understand the process better) that the creator has a card and they write down the number of books that have been paid for for CGC grading.  That card is then handed over to CGC thus confirming that the creator was paid for in accordance with their tiered rates.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 7/20/2018 at 6:13 PM, Ryan. said:

After my experience in Boston least year, where virtually every creator had an upcharge for CGC and a general sense of indignation towards fans requesting a signature or sketch, the SS program, to me, has lost most of its luster. It makes the creators ornery, even when they benefit financially, which in turn makes the fans feel like they are doing something wrong.

If I can't enjoy the creation of the collectible then I won't enjoy the owning of it, and thus the whole thing becomes pointless. Therefore, I've mostly moved on to spending my money elsewhere. I suppose the creators are getting what they want: no fat stacks for anyone.

I agree completely, entirely, and wholeheartedly with this entire post.

[RockMyAmadeus]

"If I can't make ALL the money on it, NO ONE can make ANY money on it."

This is the mantra of far too many creators, enabled by less-than-reputable facilitators who have lied to these creators and convinced them that "everyone doing CGC is just in it for the money, and they're making fat stacks of cash off of your signature!", which is not true, never has been true, and never will be true.

It's turned the whole SS program...which used to be filled with fun, interesting people with common interests...into a disgusting cash grab by creators and the facilitators who have "stabled" them. Now, you see signs everywhere that say "if you want to get books "CGC'd", you'll have to pay this additional fee to this additional party, and if you don't pay it, you won't get your books signed and you won't be able to submit them to CGC."

And don't even get me started on "creator representatives" who are also facilitators. How is that built-in conflict of interest supposed to be resolved?

By charging a CGC punishment tax, everyone loses.

Creators lose. They create ill-will, assuming that anyone and everyone slabbing is doing it to sell, even though people have been selling raw signed books since a raw signed book was first signed. They insult fans by calling them "not fans" if they happen to want to CGC the books. Campbell told me, to my face, that he "had to take care of the fans first" before he'd sign my books at a signing in 2016. What the hell am I, chopped liver? They see far less revenue than they otherwise would have, and strangle a brand new revenue stream...a revenue stream that did not exist without the SS program, and would not exist without it. People who see SS slabs and are inspired by them to see creators they wouldn't normally see, because they like the package, and wouldn't do it any other way. Instead of creators saying "wonderful! More people interested in my work!" they become jealous and greedy, not understanding the program or how it works, and those people say "uh...yeah, no thanks."

And, when those creators are gone, and their signature series set is complete, fans will have fewer chances than they otherwise would have to own something that a creator signed, that they personally handled. 

Fans lose. Obviously, they have to pay much higher prices for books they want, whether initially or on the aftermarket. Since very few people have infinite amounts of cash, hard decisions usually have to be made.

CGC loses. They do not get, and will never get, those books which are destined to be slabbed, but never will be UNLESS they can be signed. I, personally, have 10 or more long boxes...yes, long boxes...filled with books that will never see the inside of CGC's offices UNLESS they are signed, and for some, that looks increasingly remote.

Facilitators lose. They are intent, as were publishers in the early 90s, on killing the goose that is laying the golden egg, by fostering an unrealistic, inaccurate picture of what the SS program is about. For short term dollars, they are slitting the throat of the entire SS program, by making "exclusive" agreements with creators, that CGC honors because they believe it's the right thing to do to keep CGC in the good graces of these creators, resulting in people being forced to pay middle men that they didn't have to pay in the past.

And yes, the economy loses. SS is a market which was created out of thin air, that did not exist before. Those who sell SS books see their justification for doing so getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Why waste so much effort and make nothing in return? The vast majority of the value of EVERY comic book is in its condition...not the signature. There are precious few signatures that add value to anything they appear on. For 99% of the rest, the value of the book is in its condition, and the signature merely amplifies that.

Mike Zeck's signature on a 9.8 ASM #293? It adds maybe $50 to the value of the book.

Mike Zeck's signature on that same book in 9.2? You would have lost less money throwing the book in the trash before starting.

Those of you with the power better do something about this. This hostile situation cannot continue forever.

[RockMyAmadeus]

And yes, it very much makes fans feel like they're doing something wrong, when, in fact, it's the CREATORS who are doing something wrong:

"Is this for CGC?"

It's none of your damn business what my book is for, and how dare you ask? Who do you think you are? Why are you asking me what I intend to do with my property? 

Ex-Nihilo was ripped off, and that's a shame.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 7/21/2018 at 12:38 AM, ExNihilo said:

Creators see that CGC SS books are selling for more money than unverified signatures and so they charge more.

Except they're not, not always. In fact, there are more losers than winners. But creators are only shown the winners...or only want to SEE the winners.

Run a quick GPA check on Claremont signed X-Men, and see how they compare with blue labels. In some cases, books are PUNISHED because they have Claremont's sig.

Claremont charges a CGC punishment tax.

[ExNihilo]

 

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

CGC loses. They do not get, and will never get, those books which are destined to be slabbed, but never will be UNLESS they can be signed. I, personally, have 10 or more long boxes...yes, long boxes...filled with books that will never see the inside of CGC's offices UNLESS they are signed, and for some, that looks increasingly remote.

10 long boxes?  Geez.

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And yes, the economy loses. SS is a market which was created out of thin air, that did not exist before. Those who sell SS books see their justification for doing so getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Why waste so much effort and make nothing in return? The vast majority of the value of EVERY comic book is in its condition...not the signature. There are precious few signatures that add value to anything they appear on. For 99% of the rest, the value of the book is in its condition, and the signature merely amplifies that.

Yeah, I've reached a point where I no longer yearn for yellow label books on major keys the way I did when I first started this journey.  The increased cost and the decreased demand pool makes it harder to break even on some books.  And while, i'm not looking to flip my books to make a buck, it doesn't make sense to submit the books yourself at a cost that is potentially greater than what you could have otherwise spent on the open market.  And for the rest of the non-keys, the joy is in the experience of getting the books signed or knowing that the creator of a favorite story or art personally signed one of your favorite pieces.  And if that joy is soured by absurd expenses, well, it defeats the purpose of the signing.

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Except they're not, not always. In fact, there are more losers than winners. But creators are only shown the winners...or only want to SEE the winners.

Excellent point.

 

Thanks @RockMyAmadeus for all the well thought out points.  That's exactly the kind of discourse I had hoped to hear when I first posted this topic.

[BeachBum]

Blame the Artist Reps/Facilitators that pushed a lot of artists to charge signing fees while pocketing 25 - 33 % of the fees themselves. Some artists are just keeping up with the times.

[IntoAnother]

35 minutes ago, BeachBum said:

Blame the Artist Reps/Facilitators that pushed a lot of artists to charge signing fees while pocketing 25 - 33 % of the fees themselves. Some artists are just keeping up with the times.

No doubt about it when it comes to signature fees, however the additional CGC tax on top of the signature fees for books that are going to be graded is another story. 

It’s completely absurd of JSC or anyone else for that matter to be requiring an additional $30 or what have you for signed books that are going to be graded. That’s not keeping up with the times, that’s just greedy AF. 

More often than not as RMA has pointed out it’s a very unjustifiable charge when looking at completed sales. Not to mention none of anyones business what we plan to do with books and signatures that we already paid for. 

[revat]

1 hour ago, IntoAnother said:

2 hours ago, BeachBum said:

Blame the Artist Reps/Facilitators that pushed a lot of artists to charge signing fees while pocketing 25 - 33 % of the fees themselves. Some artists are just keeping up with the times.

No doubt about it when it comes to signature fees, however the additional CGC tax on top of the signature fees for books that are going to be graded is another story. 

It’s completely absurd of JSC or anyone else for that matter to be requiring an additional $30 or what have you for signed books that are going to be graded. That’s not keeping up with the times, that’s just greedy AF. 

More often than not as RMA has pointed out it’s a very unjustifiable charge when looking at completed sales. Not to mention none of anyones business what we plan to do with books and signatures that we already paid for. 

I think from a certain perspective, the creator might think, "Well this will probably cut the profit out for the resellers, so the only people left getting it signed this way are my true fans."

But the true fans are saying "I'm being treated unfairly by a creator I like.  I like them less now, and my experience of meeting them has been tainted.  I'm now less likely to consume their material in the future.  This actually affects their real livelihood, why risk alienating true fans to keep like 10 people from maybe making a bit of money on ebay?"

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, revat said:

I think from a certain perspective, the creator might think, "Well this will probably cut the profit out for the resellers, so the only people left getting it signed this way are my true fans."

But the true fans are saying "I'm being treated unfairly by a creator I like.  I like them less now, and my experience of meeting them has been tainted.  I'm now less likely to consume their material in the future.  This actually affects their real livelihood, why risk alienating true fans to keep like 10 people from maybe making a bit of money on ebay?"

This. This, this, a thousand times, THIS.

[revat]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

2 minutes ago, revat said:

I think from a certain perspective, the creator might think, "Well this will probably cut the profit out for the resellers, so the only people left getting it signed this way are my true fans."

But the true fans are saying "I'm being treated unfairly by a creator I like.  I like them less now, and my experience of meeting them has been tainted.  I'm now less likely to consume their material in the future.  This actually affects their real livelihood, why risk alienating true fans to keep like 10 people from maybe making a bit of money on ebay?"

This. This, this, a thousand times, THIS.

there just aren't that many people getting rich on MASS resale of CGC SS.  Obviously some of the facilitators do ok, but they make their money on pre-sales generally and can adjust their prices to the fees, or make their money on the guaranteed 9.8 much more than the SS aspect.  I suspect SOME of the problem is the agents of the creators, who get a piece of total funds, and to some disingenuous facilitators who oversell the value of CGC SS to gain exclusivity.  And then this type of misinformation spreads...

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, IntoAnother said:

No doubt about it when it comes to signature fees, however the additional CGC tax on top of the signature fees for books that are going to be graded is another story. 

That's the issue. No one (legitimately) resents creators charging whatever they want to charge. Charge what you want, and people can decide if it works for them or not. That's not the issue, and never has been the issue. 

It's the "oh, you want to do WHAT with your books...? Well, then, that'll be extra."

"Wait, what...? You'll sign this guy's books...someone who intends to immediately list them on eBay, by the way...for $X, but if I want to slab them, I have to pay $X + $Y...? Even if I intend to keep the slabs for myself...?"

It's greedy, selfish, short-sighted, foolish, and anti-capitalist. It does far more harm to creators than the good they think they're doing. And they're being enabled by certain "mega-facilitators", who openly complain here about people "lying to creators", when the creators are asking them questions they have no business asking in the first place.

And it's all tolerated because we all behave like addicts. 

[littlebill]

i think jsc should be boycotted until he can draw a females  face that doesnt look exactly like every other females face he draws no matter the character. it blows my mind that he gets so much credit for being a great artist and only has that one trick in his bag. 

[ExNihilo]

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's the issue. No one (legitimately) resents creators charging whatever they want to charge. Charge what you want, and people can decide if it works for them or not. That's not the issue, and never has been the issue. 

It's the "oh, you want to do WHAT with your books...? Well, then, that'll be extra."

"Wait, what...? You'll sign this guy's books...someone who intends to immediately list them on eBay, by the way...for $X, but if I want to slab them, I have to pay $X + $Y...? Even if I intend to keep the slabs for myself...?"

It's greedy, selfish, short-sighted, foolish, and anti-capitalist. It does far more harm to creators than the good they think they're doing. And they're being enabled by certain "mega-facilitators", who openly complain here about people "lying to creators", when the creators are asking them questions they have no business asking in the first place.

And it's all tolerated because we all behave like addicts. 

I'm really not sure what's more absurd, creators who charge you different rates if you are submitting to CGC, or the ones who charge more for signing lenticular's (Fabok), or key books (Liefeld)?  Like, it doesn't take you any additional effort to sign your name on this versus that.  Whether I sub to CGC or I don't isn't robbing you of your livelihood.  What books I choose to have signed and what I choose to do with them afterwards has no bearing on you whatsoever, so why charge a premium for it.

I certainly think there's plenty of blame to go around.  You can blame the creator for being greedy.  You can blame the exclusive agents/facilitators for force feeding bits of information in order to make a few extra dollars for themselves.  You can blame CGC for encouraging these sort of tactics from the creators to begin with.  And lastly, you can blame the speculators who continue to push demand for these products.  So long as demand continues to run high, the voice of the fans will be drowned out because creators know that if fans are priced out and don't buy, there's always a line of speculators willing to pay the cost.