Are Newton Rings 'normal and acceptable'? 6 6

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

27 minutes ago, DavidTheDavid said:

I find the first use of "newton rings" on the boards by Ditch Farenheit here in bigstthread Big change at CGC, from September of 2014.

Ditch references  this thread from February 2014, titled "Moisture in CGC Case.

Have we really lived with these for four years? Is it reasonable to think that after four years and how many case iterations that we will see this actually addressed?

I coined the term because I'm from the semiconductor industry.  I've dealt with newton rings most of my life.  In that industry, they are used to very accurately determine deposited thin film thicknesses (among other things).  Technically, they are supposed to be referred to as 'Newton's Rings,' but the semiconductor industry dropped that term decades ago and just refers to them as newton rings because it's easier to say and type. 

Prior to that, they were called a bunch of things in the comic book community: moisture, oil slicks, kaleidoscope patterns, rainbow rings & smudges, etc.  So if you search on those (incorrect) terms, you'll find additional references.

CGC has always had newton rings, but the old-style cases (prior to 4/4/16) had a larger gap between the outside surface of the inner well/sleeve and the inside surface of the outer case.  So it was much less prone to the effect.  

[ADAMANTIUM]

21 minutes ago, Ditch Fahrenheit said:

1 hour ago, DavidTheDavid said:

I find the first use of "newton rings" on the boards by Ditch Farenheit here in bigstthread Big change at CGC, from September of 2014.

Ditch references  this thread from February 2014, titled "Moisture in CGC Case.

Have we really lived with these for four years? Is it reasonable to think that after four years and how many case iterations that we will see this actually addressed?

I coined the term because I'm from the semiconductor industry.  I've dealt with newton rings most of my life.  In that industry, they are used to very accurately determine deposited thin film thicknesses (among other things).  Technically, they are supposed to be referred to as 'Newton's Rings,' but the semiconductor industry dropped that term decades ago and just refers to them as newton rings because it's easier to say and type. 

Ya I was going to mention that I believe that the newer cases changed over in 2016, and April sounds right. 

Also cgc made a statement concerning the Newton rings by June 30th,I know because my hulk 181 was graded around that time the announcement was made and I tried to make sure that my slab fell at the deadline. I did not notice Newton rings when I got it back.... But I just sent it off for pressing, I might have the pics elsewhere 

I wonder if cgc considers the problem handled because only a "few" have them in abundance?

I buy a lot of new case items off of eBay, and when I receive them, the Newton rings are very little if at all  just food for thought/ grain of salt kind of thing cause I've seen pics of worse off rings. 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

2 hours ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I wonder if cgc considers the problem handled because only a "few" have them in abundance?

They are aware that newton rings are present with their cases.  They even address the issue in the New Holder Frequently Asked Questions section of this website:

LINK

Question:  What is the rainbow effect on my book inside the holder?

Answer:  What you’re seeing is called the rainbow or prism effect. There is no liquid present, or anything that can damage your book. It is what happens sometimes when light passes through plastics with different refractive indexes — which means how they bend light. It’s what you sometimes see on an smartphone screen protector, or on the edges of an LCD television screen. In CGC’s case, it’s the refractive qualities of the hard outer shell and the archival-quality Mylar sheets over the book, which have been approved by the Library of Congress for the preservation of paper.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Newton Rings: delicious AND nutritious....?

 

[exitmusicblue]

22 hours ago, Ditch Fahrenheit said:

They are aware that newton rings are present with their cases.  They even address the issue in the New Holder Frequently Asked Questions section of this website:

LINK

Question:  What is the rainbow effect on my book inside the holder?

Answer:  What you’re seeing is called the rainbow or prism effect. There is no liquid present, or anything that can damage your book. It is what happens sometimes when light passes through plastics with different refractive indexes — which means how they bend light. It’s what you sometimes see on an smartphone screen protector, or on the edges of an LCD television screen. In CGC’s case, it’s the refractive qualities of the hard outer shell and the archival-quality Mylar sheets over the book, which have been approved by the Library of Congress for the preservation of paper.

They did a real good job putting some hard thought into the phrasing here.

Hopefully they do the same to actually solve this problem once and for all.  ASAP.

[I like pie]

9 minutes ago, exitmusicblue said:

They did a real good job putting some hard thought into the phrasing here.

Hopefully they do the same to actually solve this problem once and for all.  ASAP.

I don't recall seeing anything official yet stating they are working on an improvement.

[exitmusicblue]

2 minutes ago, I like pie said:

I don't recall seeing anything official yet stating they are working on an improvement.

Since many of us (guilty as charged) continue to use the service, it’s more realistic that we’ll need to wait for the nexf case upgrade. Sigh.

[Bomber-Bob]

10 minutes ago, I like pie said:

I don't recall seeing anything official yet stating they are working on an improvement.

I don't think they are working on it. I believe they have so much on their plate, just trying to keep up with submissions and keep a reasonable TAT, that all this other stuff is simply ignored. In the mean time, everyone just keeps on submitting.

[VintageComics]

17 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I don't think they are working on it. I believe they have so much on their plate, just trying to keep up with submissions and keep a reasonable TAT, that all this other stuff is simply ignored. In the mean time, everyone just keeps on submitting.

The only real solution is to change the materials used and that is likely not going to happen any time soon since it takes research and development and they just went through all of that with the new case roll out.

[Bomber-Bob]

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

The only real solution is to change the materials used and that is likely not going to happen any time soon since it takes research and development and they just went through all of that with the new case roll out.

If they would only 'loosen up' the sides of the case a little we could utilize the old trick of sticking an envelope in there. It would remove the Newton Rings everytime. 

[I like pie]

I just received a book with a good amount of newton rings and multiple finger prints on inner well. I requested a no charge re-holder and was quickly denied

[Bomber-Bob]

40 minutes ago, I like pie said:

I just received a book with a good amount of newton rings and multiple finger prints on inner well. I requested a no charge re-holder and was quickly denied

Ouch, sounds like they are taking a firm attitude about this. I am speechless.

[skeltner]

Imagine what will happen to all the newton ring plagued slabbed comics of recent years if they did actually fix it.  CGC would be under a deluge of reholstering requests that could have an unreal effect on turnaround times on all things, many of which will be angry customers demanding they transfer their recently slabbed books into the new slab at no or reduced cost.  Comics that hit the secondary in a previous slab would sit and rot as people look for those without the rings.  To say the presentation aspect of a slabbed comic doesn't affect it's inherent value is naive (not that I think anyone is doing so of course, except for CGC).  And, CGC will have to finally admit their previous slabs were inferior in order to claim they fixed a problem they used to pass off as a normal part of having comics holstered.  There will be real and lasting costs to both CGC and their customers if/when they do fix it.  That's not an argument not to fix it, but to point out the dark cloud to the silver lining here. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by skeltner

[I like pie]

5 minutes ago, skeltner said:

Imagine what will happen to all the newton ring plagued slabbed comics of recent years if they did actually fix it.  CGC would be under a deluge of reholstering requests that could have an unreal effect on turnaround times on all things, many of which will be angry customers demanding they transfer their recently slabbed books into the new slab at no or reduced cost.  Comics that hit the secondary in a previous slab would sit and rot as people look for those without the rings.  To say the presentation aspect of a slabbed comic doesn't affect it's inherent value is naive (not that I think anyone is doing so of course, except for CGC).  And, CGC will have to finally admit their previous slabs were inferior in order to claim they fixed a problem they used to pass off as a normal part of having comics holstered.  There will be real and lasting costs to both CGC and their customers if/when they do fix it.  That's not an argument not to fix it, but to point out the dark cloud to the silver lining here. 

Great points. I'd have to think if there was more solid competition, this would already be resolved.

I'd be happy to pay to reholder my books if they fix the problem that's satisfactory to their customers. To the standards the previous generations slabs all had.

I'm getting really tired of hearing what's acceptable to CGC.

[skeltner]

If I may add my own example of how bad this problem is, here is a Watchmen 1 I bought on ebay just a couple weeks ago, graded on 05/07/2018.  If you look closely, you'll notice the ENTIRE cover is covered in newton rings.  Every gap, from top to bottom.  IMO, even though I bought this from the person who had it put in its slab, CGC should offer to reslab this for me for free.  This is clearly in the "unacceptable" range of whatever quality control they must have.

 

 

[punksdropdirtysrh]

I keep seeing this one on eBay and I cringe every time. This seller has other books with seriously bad rings. 

[skeltner]

Makes you wonder, if you're just slabbing to sell on ebay, at what point does it become better to not slab it at all?

[exitmusicblue]

2 hours ago, skeltner said:

Makes you wonder, if you're just slabbing to sell on ebay, at what point does it become better to not slab it at all?

Well put.

The best we can hope for is that they accelerate their development of a next-generation holder.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

7 hours ago, punksdropdirtysrh said:

I keep seeing this one on eBay and I cringe every time. This seller has other books with seriously bad rings. 

Link

I did some detective work and found some better pics of the seller's books for sale...  

Edited August 7, 2018 by Ditch Fahrenheit

[I like pie]

I bet they look a lot worse in person.