Are Newton Rings 'normal and acceptable'? 6 6

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

26 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I do understand.

The more diverse opinions, the better. If the sister company in the same entity does not have any Newton Ring issues with the Holder, and it is direct contact of the Note between the front and back layers of the inert material, then it would seem there is a simple solution for what to use, that eliminates the explanation of contact of materials as the problem, no?

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

The more diverse opinions, the better. If the sister company in the same entity does not have any Newton Ring issues with the Holder, and it is direct contact of the Note between the front and back layers of the inert material, then it would seem there is a simple solution for what to use, that eliminates the explanation of contact of materials as the problem, no?

I'm confused.

From what I've read on the PMG site, notes are encapsulated in a flexible holder (the site specifically states not a hard plastic).

https://www.pmgnotes.com/grading/encapsulating.aspx

So it looks like notes only have one material around them and not a 2nd, rigid, outer holder like comic books do.

Am I mistaken?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Yes.

[VintageComics]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

Yes.

So the PMG website is incorrect, then? Or incomplete?

Because even a Google search of the notes I've seen show only one holder.

The CGC website clearly explains that comics are encapsulated in an archival well and then in a capsule. The PMG website doesn't.

https://www.cgccomics.com/encapsulation/

[VintageComics]

This is a scan of a PMG note from a Heritage auction from 2017. It looks like there is only the soft, archival material being used with no outer shell.

https://currency.ha.com/itm/large-size/gold-certificates/fr-1200-50-1922-gold-certificate-pmg-gem-uncirculated-65-epq/a/3556-20075.s#

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

The inner/outer aspect is not the issue. Direct contact is supposedly the issue, that causes the problem, no? Yes, you are confused, and I don't think you understand, or have not understood any of my comments. It doesn't really matter, though, because we are talking 2 different things. You believe the materials have to be separated, because the materials come in contact with each other and cause Rings. So, why not use the inert product that the sister organization uses? Or do you think that would also cause Rings.

I don't think you understood, but again, no harm no foul. I do not think, nor has it been proved, that the Holders presently being used are of a quality of material that would not have the Ring problem if the pieces were separated. Why? Why should that be? You believe and others do, that it is a light phenomonen the human eye detects when the materials touch. I am sure our Host is working on it. So, it is of no value to repeat everything I have already posted and could post about polymers, copolymers, extrusion, contamination, heat extruded sheet materials, etc. It is boring, I am sure.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

12 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

So the PMG website is incorrect, then? Or incomplete?

Because even a Google search of the notes I've seen show only one holder.

The CGC website clearly explains that comics are encapsulated in an archival well and then in a capsule. The PMG website doesn't.

https://www.cgccomics.com/encapsulation/

You don't understand, what I am sharing, so no problem.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

11 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

This is a scan of a PMG note from a Heritage auction from 2017. It looks like there is only the soft, archival material being used with no outer shell.

https://currency.ha.com/itm/large-size/gold-certificates/fr-1200-50-1922-gold-certificate-pmg-gem-uncirculated-65-epq/a/3556-20075.s#

No Rings. No Rings. No Rings. Material in contact. Material in Contact. Not a problem at all. Clear inert material.....no problem at all. Why not? What is your position on why not, and what is your position as to the solution being use the same inert material on the inner and outer parts of the Holder. Why not? Does this clarify any better for you? 

[VintageComics]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

You don't understand, what I am sharing, so no problem.

The problem is that you are not clear, appear to be contradicting the Collectibles Society website and then don't clearly explain yourself.

So from where I'm sitting, it seems that you don't understand?

Or can you provide an example where a bank note is sealed in an inner, soft archival holder and then encapsulated within a 2nd shell? Because I can't seem to find it.

Because the problem CGC is experiencing is happening where the inner and outer holders meet, inside the 2nd holder (or capsule).

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

6 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

The problem is that you are not clear, appear to be contradicting the Collectibles Society website and then don't clearly explain yourself.

So from where I'm sitting, it seems that you don't understand?

Or can you provide an example where a bank note is sealed in an inner, soft archival holder and then encapsulated within a 2nd shell? Because I can't seem to find it.

Because the problem CGC is experiencing is happening where the inner and outer holders meet, inside the 2nd holder (or capsule).

 

The rEal problem is you did not read my many posts on the subject and understood any of the issues I stated, and now you somehow think I am comparing a comic Holder Construct with a Note Construct, as to layers. No. You have not understood at all. Again, though, it is not important.

[VintageComics]

Just now, Mr.Mcknowitall said:

No Rings. No Rings. No Rings. Material in contact. Material in Contact. Not a problem at all. Clear inert material.....no problem at all. Why not? What is your position on why not, and what is your position as to the solution being use the same inert material on the inner and outer parts of the Holder. Why not? Does this clarify any better for you? 

Are you asking why there are no rings around the edges of the note where the material contacts itself?

Or are you asking why there are no rings on the face of the note where the material contacts the note?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

5 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Are you asking why there are no rings around the edges of the note where the material contacts itself?

Or are you asking why there are no rings on the face of the note where the material contacts the note?

Never mind. 

[namisgr]

From the CGC:

The rainbow effect has been seen in CGC holders......is a result of the inner sleeve (which holds the book) contacting the hard-plastic outer shell; the two different plastics have different refractive indexes and that sometimes creates a rainbow effect when they come into contact. 

[VintageComics]

17 minutes ago, namisgr said:

From the CGC:

The rainbow effect has been seen in CGC holders......is a result of the inner sleeve (which holds the book) contacting the hard-plastic outer shell; the two different plastics have different refractive indexes and that sometimes creates a rainbow effect when they come into contact. 

Which is why I don't understand the discussion about PMG holders which ONLY use the inner archival material with no outer plastic shell.

[comicdonna]

3 hours ago, namisgr said:

From the CGC:

The rainbow effect has been seen in CGC holders......is a result of the inner sleeve (which holds the book) contacting the hard-plastic outer shell; the two different plastics have different refractive indexes and that sometimes creates a rainbow effect when they come into contact. 

 

3 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Which is why I don't understand the discussion about PMG holders which ONLY use the inner archival material with no outer plastic shell.

It also explains why the PMG holders don't have NR's.  I'm not sure why notes are being compared to comics.  The holders aren't even close to being the same.  

[walclark]

Got to the office this morning and had a 10 book value submission from June waiting for me.  These were slabbed last week.  The Newton ring effect is present in most of the books (7 of 10), but is certainly reduced from previous submissions.  The effect is still most noticeable on lighter colored covers.

I believe others have mentioned an issue with scratches on the inside of the slab.  There are scratches on 8 of the 10 slabs in this submission.  Like the ring effect, the scratches can only be seen when viewing the slabs at an angle to catch the light.  I would add photos, but I don’t think any of these defects are severe enough to photograph or scan well.

Overall, I would say that, at least with this batch, there seems to be some improvement in regards to the ring effect.

[Brittany M.]

On 9/1/2018 at 2:34 PM, Ditch Fahrenheit said:

Exactly.  In the past, all 'official' responses came from either Matt Nelson, Harshen Patel, or Brittany McManus; and ALL had longstanding accounts with identifiable indications of their positions at CGC along with color coding.

If this member account 'CGC Comics' is actually one of the above people (or someone else), I find this completely unprofessional.  Call me crazy, but I like to know exactly WHO is making the official CGC statements; especially given CGC's track record of deleting entire threads when 'official' promises of improved quality became 'inconvenient.'

I understand what you are saying completely.  I'll be monitoring that account, I'll just have some help as well. 

I'm always here to help out however I can, and you can ALWAYS email me @Ditch Fahrenheit

[VintageComics]

Brittany liked my last post. I've been blessed!

[DanCooper]

5 hours ago, walclark said:

I believe others have mentioned an issue with scratches on the inside of the slab.  There are scratches on 8 of the 10 slabs in this submission.  Like the ring effect, the scratches can only be seen when viewing the slabs at an angle to catch the light.

Apologies if this has been addressed already in this thread, or in the other NR thread over in the Gold forum, but has it been determined what is causing these scratches? Is this something that has been noticed on just recent subs and/or reholders? (or are older versions of slabs - 1 year + - exhibiting this scratch effect also?)

 

[comicdonna]

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

Brittany liked my last post. I've been blessed!

I've been blessed as well.