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Is House Of Secrets #92 the next Incredible Hulk #181?
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Started by Randall Ries,

60 posts in this topic

Chillax23

Chillax23

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Posted
16 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

I have noticed when key books get run ups due to this or that, they usually retain the new value. I don't know if I would call Zatanna's first appearance a "key" or not.

Depends - there were huge run-ups in New Mutants 87 and 98, X-Factor 6, Batman Adventures 12, Iron Man 1, Cap 105, FF53, etc. that once the movie was released a large portion of those run-ups went away - while some of these "key" books like BA12, NM98, Iron Man 1, Cap 105 kept some of the gains others fell hard after.  It remains to be seen what will happen to a book like Iron Man 55 (I suspect it will lose some of the gains it has experienced but not all of it).

I think HOS92 (and Hulk 181) will give back some of the gains they have seen, but will not fall back to pre-surge prices - however, I really have no idea :)

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Randall Ries

Randall Ries

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I think the word "key" is used a little too broadly now anyway. HOS92 is a "key" in that it spun off a whole new character and characters that have had staying power. Is the first appearance of Harley Quinn a "key"? I don't know. IMO it's a stretch. Is Bat 251 a "key"? I don't feel like it is. Cool cover and good story with some returns to the original character idea. Is it a "key"? Bat 232 feels like a "key". GL 76 is. IH 181 is. Someone tried to say Submariner 1 from the bronze age was a "key". Not.

So, if some of these books that had huge gains and deemed a "key" book because of those gains, then when the bottom falls out, does it remain a "key"? No. A "key" is like Bat 11 (1st Joker cover in title), Bat 47 (1st detailed origin story).

Does the passage of time suddenly deem a book like IM 1 a "key"? It wasn't 25-30 years ago when there were plenty of them and reasonably priced. Now that the "bronzies" are in their fifties, does that mean their first issues are "keys"? Nostalgia and wistfulness doesn't make a book a "key" suddenly. Needs to be outwardly special.

I don't think bandwagon books or flavor of the year books should be considered "key".

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Chillax23

Chillax23

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1 hour ago, Randall Ries said:

I think the word "key" is used a little too broadly now anyway. HOS92 is a "key" in that it spun off a whole new character and characters that have had staying power. Is the first appearance of Harley Quinn a "key"? I don't know. IMO it's a stretch. Is Bat 251 a "key"? I don't feel like it is. Cool cover and good story with some returns to the original character idea. Is it a "key"? Bat 232 feels like a "key". GL 76 is. IH 181 is. Someone tried to say Submariner 1 from the bronze age was a "key". Not.

So, if some of these books that had huge gains and deemed a "key" book because of those gains, then when the bottom falls out, does it remain a "key"? No. A "key" is like Bat 11 (1st Joker cover in title), Bat 47 (1st detailed origin story).

Does the passage of time suddenly deem a book like IM 1 a "key"? It wasn't 25-30 years ago when there were plenty of them and reasonably priced. Now that the "bronzies" are in their fifties, does that mean their first issues are "keys"? Nostalgia and wistfulness doesn't make a book a "key" suddenly. Needs to be outwardly special.

I don't think bandwagon books or flavor of the year books should be considered "key".

I do not disagree (although I do think that BA12 is a key - like it or hate it).  I am very interested to see what happens to IM55 after Infinity War/Gauntlet runs its course (I personally am hoping it drops some so I can pick-up a copy as I feel it is overinflated).

But anyway - back to the HOS92 discussion - it is not (and likely never will be) Hulk 181 :)

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Lazyboy

Lazyboy

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3 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

Is Bat 251 a "key"? I don't feel like it is. Cool cover and good story with some returns to the original character idea. Is it a "key"? Bat 232 feels like a "key". GL 76 is. IH 181 is. Someone tried to say Submariner 1 from the bronze age was a "key". Not.

GL 76 is, but you're not sure about Batman 251? ???:facepalm:

3 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

So, if some of these books that had huge gains and deemed a "key" book because of those gains, then when the bottom falls out, does it remain a "key"?

No price tag can ever make a book a key. Most of the books that have had huge gains in the last decade or so are keys and were keys before any price increase.

52 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

I don't think it is. Maybe I'm wrong, but should every 1st appearance of a given character be considered "key"?

A character has to be really :censored: irrelevant for their first appearance to not be a key. However, not all keys are equal.

If you don't know what "key" means (and you clearly demonstrate that you don't), look it up and get back to us. :facepalm:

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Jeffro.

Jeffro.

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12 hours ago, Randall Ries said:
13 hours ago, Ryan. said:

The first appearance of Harley Quinn in comics isn't a key? 

I don't think it is. Maybe I'm wrong, but should every 1st appearance of a given character be considered "key"?

Of course Batman Adventures 12 is a key. 

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Ryan.

Ryan.

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1 minute ago, Pontoon said:
2 hours ago, Ryan. said:

This conversation got weird.

As soon as you showed up it did.

That only seems to happen all the time.

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Randall Ries

Randall Ries

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2 hours ago, Pontoon said:

And anybody who doesn’t think BA #12 is a key or that Harley Quinn is a major character has their head under a rock. And I'm not even a DC guy.

I suppose if the industry and collectors at large feel the thing is a key, then it must be a key. I am nonplussed when it comes to HQ so I am prejudiced. Don't care about her one way or the other. I was only musing that it seems the bar is being lowered as far as what constitutes a key. I really don't care if it's a key or not. Have no desire for BA12.

 

14 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

GL 76 is, but you're not sure about Batman 251? ???:facepalm:

No price tag can ever make a book a key. Most of the books that have had huge gains in the last decade or so are keys and were keys before any price increase.

A character has to be really :censored: irrelevant for their first appearance to not be a key. However, not all keys are equal.

If you don't know what "key" means (and you clearly demonstrate that you don't), look it up and get back to us. :facepalm:

Firstly, take your face palm and go pound sand down a rat hole with it. We had been talking about the merits of IH 181 vs HOS 92. I think the idea of a "key" book is subjective. There are industry accepted keys and then there seem to be keys that are pulled out of e$ because collector man has a bunch of them and they are the years Hot Sh&t book. If I look at a book and feel like it isn't a key, despite first appearances or something else in it, then I won't view it as a key. YOU can or a bunch of other people can, but it won't motivate me to get the book for the sole reason of it being a key book. Or not.

Bat 251 IMO is a great book, but not a key book in the way I see a key book. A turning point for the character, a return to greatness, but it didn't set the genre on its ear the same way GL76 did. Or is doing. Certainly a desirable book. Is it on the same plane as GL 76? No. Different strata. As I said before, I think sometimes the bar is being lowered as far as defining a key book goes. Harley Quinn is just a derivative character IMO and just another psychopath the Joker can play with. I won't view her as the next best thing since sliced bread. I just don't. Just IMO and you can like it or lump it. As you say, not all keys are equal. It's in the eye of this beholder and collector.

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drbanner

drbanner

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Interesting...look at all those Hulk 181 sales numbers in the 2002 - 2007 period compared to the last 4 years. hm

As far as comparing Hulk 181 to HoS 92, there are over twice as many sales of HoS in 9.0 vs. 9.4 (for Hulk 181 it's not quite 50% more), and it looks like a 9.2 copy might be in the sweet spot as they're selling at only a slight premium above 9.0's. HoS 92 is one of the top 5 major Bronze Age keys but rarely comes up for sale in 9.4+.  What does it all mean!?!? (shrug)

H181_HoS92.thumb.jpg.2a3f313f2109e774d95ca3843ae41bc5.jpg

Edited by drbanner
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october

october

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18 minutes ago, Harley Troy said:

I missed that book by like 20 minutes:frustrated:

I figured it wouldn't show up. Pretty happy when it did! Not sure how the seller arrived at that price, but I was appreciative. 

Win some, lose some though. I was under 30 seconds late for $65 Archie 50 in F/VF a few weeks ago. That one HURT.

Edited by october
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Randall Ries

Randall Ries

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21 minutes ago, october said:

I figured it wouldn't show up. Pretty happy when it did! Not sure how the seller arrived at that price, but I was appreciative. 

Win some, lose some though. I was under 30 seconds late for $65 Archie 50 in F/VF a few weeks ago. That one HURT.

Yowtch! Is Archie #1 the new Incredible Hulk 181? xD

 

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Randall Ries

Randall Ries

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54 minutes ago, october said:

See that crazy dip in 2017 on the HOS 9.0 graph? 

The fruits of my eBay obsession. A $650 BIN that I thought might be a scam, but wasn't. :grin:

Gawd. And to think 5 years ago I bought my 9.0 for $900. $3k+ now. Once in awhile a deal comes around offered by perhaps someone who has upgraded and is throwing someone a rare bone. Good for you for getting the book at an astonishing price!

 

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