What percent of existing copies of Action 1, Detective 27, Superman 1, and Batman 1 are already CGC graded? 1 1

[Mr bla bla]

3 hours ago, Crowzilla said:

No one mentioned a trailer park, 10 years, or without family.

No, but "Noodles" was actually mentioned   I recall ...

Edited July 29, 2018 by Mr bla bla

[Aman619]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Well, to use the $6,000 Action 1 purchase example, a 1000% gain (10x) would be only $60,000.  These days, the right Action 1 with minor restoration is pushing the 10,000% (100x or $600K) gain level.

Gee.  Look who aced his math tests!!!   ; ). I didn’t put much thought into the % I picked when I posted. People are SO literal around here.  Sheesh.

[pemart1966]

7 hours ago, Robot Man said:

I suspect there are quite a few still un-slabbed. I know of two Action #1s and one Tec #27 raw copies sitting basically unknown in collections of off the radar old school collectors just locally. I’m sure there are many more we don’t know about.

I have no concrete evidence but I'd say a fair number of GA keys (Action 1; Detective 27 etc) traded hands a few times during the dawn of comic collecting (1964-68) and then disappeared into those so called "black holes'.  They'll still be be in those black holes whose owners may not have collected in decades BUT still have their eye on things and know approximately or even exactly how much their books are worth.

 

[lou_fine]

19 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

The fact that we’ve only seen 69 copies (40 Universal) slabbed in nearly two decades of slabbing is likely a testament to the actual rarity of the book. Those selling out for an extraordinary amount of money (ridiculous return on investment) are probably likely to outnumber the old school modest collectors who say no to that incentive and hold tight anyway. Just my 2-cents.

Well, I guess this shows that different people can see exactly the same thing in a different light.

The fact that we've only seen 69 copies (40 Universal) slabbed in nearly two decades of slabbing is likely more a testament that the old time collectors who picked up these grail books at the dawn of comic book collecting when they were around in much greater numbers simply buried them deep into their comic book collections.  They have absolutely no reason or interest to have them slabbed until it comes time for them to sell the book.   Now, that's just my 2-cents on the subject.  

Wayne-Tec:  From your posts here, I imagine you are probably younger than most of us here in the GA Forum and are what I would call a CGC generational collector.  Nothing wrong with that at all, but it's that your comic collecting probably focused in on slabbed books almost right from the get-go and slabs are probably all you have experienced in terms of your comic book collecting life.  With us old and some not so old farts here, our comic book collecting started years or even decades before CGC was even in anybody's thoughts.  For old-time collectors like us, I can't think of a single reason why I would want any of my books to be slabbed unless it was time to sell it.  Especially when the book is what it is and slabbing will not change it at all or give me any additional benefit, but will certainly cost me a lot to have it graded and for what purpose.  

Edited July 30, 2018 by lou_fine

[Wayne-Tec]

23 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Well, I guess this shows that different people can see exactly the same thing in a different light.

The fact that we've only seen 69 copies (40 Universal) slabbed in nearly two decades of slabbing is likely more a testament that the old time collectors who picked up these grail books at the dawn of comic book collecting when they were around in much greater numbers simply buried them deep into their comic book collections.  They have absolutely no reason or interest to have them slabbed until it comes time for them to sell the book.   Now, that's just my 2-cents on the subject.  

Wayne-Tec:  From your posts here, I imagine you are probably younger than most of us here in the GA Forum and are what I would call a CGC generational collector.  Nothing wrong with that at all, but it's that your comic collecting probably focused in on slabbed books almost right from the get-go and slabs are probably all you have experienced in terms of your comic book collecting life.  With us old and some not so old farts here, our comic book collecting started years or even decades before CGC was even in anybody's thoughts.  For old-time collectors like us, I can't think of a single reason why I would want any of my books to be slabbed unless it was time to sell it.  Especially when the book is what it is and slabbing will not change it at all or give me any additional benefit, but will certainly cost me a lot to have it graded and for what purpose.  

I’m 29, younger than many if not most GA collectors. When I began collecting, most of my books were raw, so the experience is there even though my preference now is to have valuable books slabbed.

But I’m not an owner of a complete Action #1 of Tec #27, so my preferences aren’t relevant. Many of the collectors I know share your outlook on slabbed books, but the majority of them are not Action #1 owners.

From the examples others have shared, we know that there are old school collectors who keep their Action #1(s) raw for a multitude of reasons. Rick’s estimate was 150+, mine is 150-300 remaining in existence.

The question we’re left with, which I believe has extended this discussion, is: Are there closer to 81 raw Action #1s out there (150 total copies) or are there closer to 231 raw Action #1s out there (300 total copies)?

I don’t believe the evidence suggests that 77% of the estimated remaining copies in existence (231) are raw, but even if that were the case, it would still falls into my initial estimate anyway.

[Chicago Boy]

27 minutes ago, Wayne-Tec said:

I’m 29, younger than many if not most GA collectors. When I began collecting, most of my books were raw, so the experience is there even though my preference now is to have valuable books slabbed.

But I’m not an owner of a complete Action #1 of Tec #27, so my preferences aren’t relevant. Many of the collectors I know share your outlook on slabbed books, but the majority of them are not Action #1 owners.

From the examples others have shared, we know that there are old school collectors who keep their Action #1(s) raw for a multitude of reasons. Rick’s estimate was 150+, mine is 150-300 remaining in existence.

The question we’re left with, which I believe has extended this discussion, is: Are there closer to 81 raw Action #1s out there (150 total copies) or are there closer to 231 raw Action #1s out there (300 total copies)?

I don’t believe the evidence suggests that 77% of the estimated remaining copies in existence (231) are raw, but even if that were the case, it would still falls into my initial estimate anyway.

Man, 81 or 231 raw sure seem like a big number when you see them written out. 

[N e r V]

I’ve been on message boards since the 2000’s. I joined here in 2011 I believe.

In that time I’ve tried to get various family, friends and collectors to post here. So far, nothing. Some of the reasons are not interested in posting, no extra time for it, concern over advertising what they have, etc..

 

I met up with a few collector friends this past SDCC. They were mostly interested in panels or nickel and dime shopping. They have a lot of the “big stuff” with keys, etc.. and only give booths like Heritage or Metro a peek to see what the going rates are today and they shrug. They have means and zero interest in parting with their stuff some of which I helped them obtain years ago.

So I understand and enjoy things like the boards here with sharing since I’ve become a bit more active myself in buying the last few years but I also understand just wanting to enjoy your collection privately with any interaction being limited to those close to you and limited to slight buying today.

 

[Crowzilla]

12 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

Man, 81 or 231 raw sure seem like a big number when you see them written out. 

Does it?

I think of it like this, Metro/CC has sold something like 20 copies of this issue since 2010, do you think they have sold 1/4 or even 1/5 of all known copies in the past eight years all by themselves?  Very unlikely. 

If you think they sold half of all the copies that come to market, for a total of 40 copies in 8 years, do you think that half of all known copies sell every eight years? Again, very doubtful. Collectors keep books a long time. I doubt half of the known copies sell every 20 years.

It's been nearly 35 years since the Church copy sold, more than 20 for the Larson, Mannarino kept the "other" 9.0 copy for 30 years, they aren't exceptions to the rule, it's what collectors do. They buy and hold onto stuff.

 

[tth2]

13 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

What is it about AC 1 and Tec 27 that make them so rare compared to their contemporaries ?  Is it as simple as 1938 and 1939 and the start of the hero craze ??

They're not rare at all.

[jimjum12]

1 hour ago, Crowzilla said:

Does it?

I think of it like this, Metro/CC has sold something like 20 copies of this issue since 2010, do you think they have sold 1/4 or even 1/5 of all known copies in the past eight years all by themselves?  Very unlikely. 

If you think they sold half of all the copies that come to market, for a total of 40 copies in 8 years, do you think that half of all known copies sell every eight years? Again, very doubtful. Collectors keep books a long time. I doubt half of the known copies sell every 20 years.

It's been nearly 35 years since the Church copy sold, more than 20 for the Larson, Mannarino kept the "other" 9.0 copy for 30 years, they aren't exceptions to the rule, it's what collectors do. They buy and hold onto stuff.

 

My friend Jerry's copy didn't sell until he died. I know a couple other guys who have a Father or Uncle who own Action 1's with no plan to sell or slab. In fact, my friends ALSO have no plans to sell if they inherit. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[lou_fine]

3 hours ago, Wayne-Tec said:

I’m 29, younger than many if not most GA collectors. When I began collecting, most of my books were raw, so the experience is there even though my preference now is to have valuable books slabbed.

But I’m not an owner of a complete Action #1 of Tec #27, so my preferences aren’t relevant. Many of the collectors I know share your outlook on slabbed books, but the majority of them are not Action #1 owners.

From the examples others have shared, we know that there are old school collectors who keep their Action #1(s) raw for a multitude of reasons. Rick’s estimate was 150+, mine is 150-300 remaining in existence.

The question we’re left with, which I believe has extended this discussion, is: Are there closer to 81 raw Action #1s out there (150 total copies) or are there closer to 231 raw Action #1s out there (300 total copies)?

I don’t believe the evidence suggests that 77% of the estimated remaining copies in existence (231) are raw, but even if that were the case, it would still falls into my initial estimate anyway.

Well, it's definitely good to see some younger blood in here chasing after the GA books. 

When I was your age, I was still wasting my time cherry picking the latest supposedly hot (definitely not so much anymore) newsstand books like the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans, Miller Daredevil's, Wolverine mini-series, and what have you.  Definitely love those stories which is all good, but I guess I should have also allocated a part of my budget to GA books which was still a few years away for me at the time.  

As for your guesstimate of existing copies of Action 1's, I believe you are definitely right on the green as my own personal estimate for total copies (i.e. unrestored, restored, incomplete) would be somewhere in the 175 to 250 range.   

[Chicago Boy]

7 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Well, it's definitely good to see some younger blood in here chasing after the GA books. 

When I was your age, I was still wasting my time cherry picking the latest supposedly hot (definitely not so much anymore) newsstand books like the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans, Miller Daredevil's, Wolverine mini-series, and what have you.  Definitely love those stories which is all good, but I guess I should have also allocated a part of my budget to GA books which was still a few years away for me at the time.  

As for your guesstimate of existing copies of Action 1's, I believe you are definitely right on the green as my own personal estimate for total copies (i.e. unrestored, restored, incomplete) would be somewhere in the 175 to 250 range.   

You have the Same range for Tec 27, Lou ? 

[Wayne-Tec]

7 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Well, it's definitely good to see some younger blood in here chasing after the GA books. 

When I was your age, I was still wasting my time cherry picking the latest supposedly hot (definitely not so much anymore) newsstand books like the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans, Miller Daredevil's, Wolverine mini-series, and what have you.  Definitely love those stories which is all good, but I guess I should have also allocated a part of my budget to GA books which was still a few years away for me at the time.  

As for your guesstimate of existing copies of Action 1's, I believe you are definitely right on the green as my own personal estimate for total copies (i.e. unrestored, restored, incomplete) would be somewhere in the 175 to 250 range.   

I was 16 or 17 when I acquired my first copy of Batman #1. If memory serves me correctly, I traded a coverless AF #15, coverless ASM #1, a rough B&B #28, a Showcase #4 missing the front cover and a loose trimmed centerfold from Superman #1 (yes, I hunted those things down in high school) for the coverless Batman #1 missing the final page.

I’ve owned 5 different copies of Batman #1 over the years, 4 of which were coverless.

I’ve owned complete/incomplete/coverless/wraps/pages/covers from:

 

*Action Comics #1

*Detective Comics #27

*Marvel Comics #1

*Superman #1

*Batman #1

*Captain America Comics #1

*Whiz Comics #2 (#1)

*All-American Comics #16

*All-Star Comics #3

*All-Star Comics #8

*Action Comics #6, #7, #23

*Detective Comics #28, #29, #32, #33, #36, #37, #38, #39, #40

I’ve sold most of them, the nature of having to sell if you want to buy. As much as I miss many of the pieces I’ve had, I’d have never been able to check off that many boxes without jumping around a bit.

I’ve never owned a MF #52, one of the biggest keys I’d like to own some day.

[lou_fine]

4 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

11 hours ago, lou_fine said:

As for your guesstimate of existing copies of Action 1's, I believe you are definitely right on the green as my own personal estimate for total copies (i.e. unrestored, restored, incomplete) would be somewhere in the 175 to 250 range.   

You have the Same range for Tec 27, Lou ? 

Well, my guesstimates for what it's worth in terms of 'Tec 27 would be slightly lower at something like 150 to 225 copies. 

But then again, what would I know since I don't breathe the air in that rarefied atmosphere. 

[entalmighty1]

On 7/30/2018 at 7:54 AM, Wayne-Tec said:

I was 16 or 17 when I acquired my first copy of Batman #1. If memory serves me correctly, I traded a coverless AF #15, coverless ASM #1, a rough B&B #28, a Showcase #4 missing the front cover and a loose trimmed centerfold from Superman #1 (yes, I hunted those things down in high school) for the coverless Batman #1 missing the final page.

I’ve owned 5 different copies of Batman #1 over the years, 4 of which were coverless.

I’ve owned complete/incomplete/coverless/wraps/pages/covers from:

 

*Action Comics #1

*Detective Comics #27

*Marvel Comics #1

*Superman #1

*Batman #1

*Captain America Comics #1

*Whiz Comics #2 (#1)

*All-American Comics #16

*All-Star Comics #3

*All-Star Comics #8

*Action Comics #6, #7, #23

*Detective Comics #28, #29, #32, #33, #36, #37, #38, #39, #40

I’ve sold most of them, the nature of having to sell if you want to buy. As much as I miss many of the pieces I’ve had, I’d have never been able to check off that many boxes without jumping around a bit.

I’ve never owned a MF #52, one of the biggest keys I’d like to own some day.

This is pretty insane to me.

When I was 16, I was playing high school football, chasing girls, and worrying about the SAT/ACT to get into a decent college.  Comics like that were so far out of the realm of possibility to me it didn't even make sense to daydream about owning them.  I worked at a warehouse unloading 18 wheelers for $5.15 an hour, and was lucky to clear $100 bucks a paycheck, half of which went to helping my grandparents with bills.  After buying gas, and paying insurance, I typically had $15 a week to have fun with.  

Where in the world were you finding these books 10 years ago that you were able to afford them when you found them?

[rob_react]

Collecting in high school was a lot of fun. I worked at a comic shop, so I had a good sense of what was hot and would go on raids when I knew a certain book was hot, buying up copies all around town. I'd then sell the new stuff to buy old stuff. I wasn't buying golden age, but I did manage to sell my way into Daredevil 1-up, FF 1,2,5, etc. on the back of New Mutants #87s, Spider-Man #300s, etc. 
 

[lou_fine]

On 7/29/2018 at 6:55 PM, N e r V said:

I met up with a few collector friends this past SDCC. They were mostly interested in panels or nickel and dime shopping. They have a lot of the “big stuff” with keys, etc.. and only give booths like Heritage or Metro a peek to see what the going rates are today and they shrug.

I can definitely see this to be the typical reaction of the old long-time collectors who were both astute and lucky enough to pick up what we now see as grail books at much lower price points decades ago when vintage comic book collecting was just starting up. 

Definitely much more so than believing they would be lining up at the CGC or CBCS booths with their books in hand and their submission invoices already completed in triplicate and nervously pushing their way to the front of the line before somebody else turns in their copies of these same books before they do.  

[Chicago Boy]

12 minutes ago, rob_react said:

Collecting in high school was a lot of fun. I worked at a comic shop, so I had a good sense of what was hot and would go on raids when I knew a certain book was hot, buying up copies all around town. I'd then sell the new stuff to buy old stuff. I wasn't buying golden age, but I did manage to sell my way into Daredevil 1-up, FF 1,2,5, etc. on the back of New Mutants #87s, Spider-Man #300s, etc. 
 

Love that story !  

[fishbone]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 12:12 PM, rjpb said:

Those things only matter if you are thinking of selling ( or possibly for insurance reasons). I'm sure many old time collectors would be quite uncomfortable shipping out their prize possessions and then waiting weeks to get them back. Not to mention, once slabbed, they can no longer enjoy physically holding the book itself in their hands. 

There is also a cost factor. Some old-time collectors may be comic rich, but not too interested in shelling out a couple thousand or more to slab a book before they are ready to sell. 

I will leave it to others to speculate just how many raw copies are still floating around of the big books, it could be 80 , it could 380, I don't now, but I resist the notion that the owners are predisposed to get their books slabbed. If nothing else, inertia tends to win out when their isn't a compelling reason to do so. I only slab with intent to sell, and even then it feels a chore to pack, ship and fill out forms. I constantly delay, and frequently end up selling books raw that might be more profitable slabbed, though nothing of near the magnitude of the major keys of course. 

 

I'm working through this thread and only on page 1, so I'm sorry if this gets addressed later in this thread (which I will finish today I hope as it is VERY interesting), but I need to comment here that maybe, just maybe, those that have raw copies of GA keys are very sophisticated collectors. They have done their own resto checks and grading. And they probably know that the big auction houses will take care of the slabbing themselves if or when they were to sell, so there is no urgency to slab for these collectors.

 

Just my 1 cent 

Edited July 31, 2018 by fishbone

[fishbone]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 12:31 PM, Crowzilla said:

And yet, according to your reasoning the person who has more to gain than anyone from slabbing and meets your criteria (60+ years old, raw Action 1 purchased 30+ years ago), still has slabbed none of his personal collection.

Lots of old-timers follow his example (or if not follow, at least have the same way of thinking).

If we take it as gospel that probably half of the ten most valuable single issues in the hobby have not been slabbed yet, why wouldn't it be a similar percentage if you expand those numbers outwards?

But I guess it doesn't matter how many examples Gator posts, there will still be those who think those examples are the only exceptions and surely everyone else has gotten theirs slabbed by now.

I honestly don't know how this thread doesn't  just close when Rick has answered the question. He is so "in the know", when he answers then I'm good.