What percent of existing copies of Action 1, Detective 27, Superman 1, and Batman 1 are already CGC graded? 1 1

[fishbone]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 11:14 PM, Wayne-Tec said:

I’m going to use Action Comics #1 as an example, but the same logic can be applied to Detective Comics #27 and, to a lesser extent, Superman #1 and Batman #1.

A few things to consider:

Of the owners holding raw copies of Action Comics #1, what is their average level of wealth?

Are we looking at a 50/50 split between multi-millionaires and more modest collectors? Mostly multi-millionaires? Mostly more modest collectors? The answer, which may be impossible to know, is important.

As it pertains to the incentive to slab, we’ve discussed multiple factors, including protection for the book and desire to sell said book. Some have said: “Why would these old school collectors care 1) about slabbing comics which began decades after they first began collecting and 2) slabbing books that they do not have the desire to sell?

So let’s discuss those two points.

1) While slabbing goes against the desire by many to thumb through a comic book, it is much more likely to be viewed as a negative by those who are not worried about losing many, many thousands of dollars to grade degradation.

Thumbing through a 5.0 copy of a $500 book to the point where it becomes a 4.5 or 4.0 isn’t a very big deal. Turing a 5.0 Action #1 into a 4.5 or 4.0 would be a huge deal. As much as one enjoys thumbing through a comic book, is it so enjoyable that you’d risk a potential six-figure loss? I’m not buying it, though exceptions will always exist.

If you’re a multi-millionaire, such a risk and loss would be easier to bounce back from. But this brings us back to the question of: How wealthy are these raw Action #1 owners? Would someone making 75K, 100K, 150K annually risk an entire year’s salary to thumb through an Action #1? I’m not buying it, though exceptions will always exist.

2) Why slab a book if you have no intention of selling? Well, who is it that has no intention of selling? Multi-millionaires...sure. But I’m skeptical if the implication is that most of these raw Action #1 owners match that profile.

The more logical conclusion, IMO, is that many of the old school collectors loved their Action #1s, but not more than they loved the ability to put 2-3 grandchildren through college. Many of those old school collectors couldn’t resist the temptation any longer and FMV reached a point where the benefit of selling out-weighed the love of collecting.

69 CGC slabbed copies of Action #1 has been enough for us to see a handful come to the market in major auctions almost every year.

My estimate stands at 150-300 copies remaining in existence. If the reality is the lower end of my estimate (150), 54% of the remaining copies in existence remain raw. If the high end of my estimate is correct (300), 77% of all remaining copies in existence remain raw.

What is the likelihood that 77% of all Action #1 copies remain raw and/or sitting in private collections? That’s a stretch, so I think it’s fair to say 300 may be a high number.

Just reading this and adding another thought:

I think another reason to slab big ones might be to "help"  family members (heirs)  in the event of passing suddenly ...... if it's items that are only thousands, not sure I'd make a big deal about them, but tens or hundreds of thousands, may just make it that much easier to have  value established immediately at less cost to the beneficiaries ...........

[fishbone]

On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 4:26 PM, sfcityduck said:

Well, to use the $6,000 Action 1 purchase example, a 1000% gain (10x) would be only $60,000.  These days, the right Action 1 with minor restoration is pushing the 10,000% (100x or $600K) gain level.

and with major restoration, 50x that $6000   ..................  I don't see any down side however you look at it. 

[fishbone]

On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 9:55 PM, N e r V said:

I’ve been on message boards since the 2000’s. I joined here in 2011 I believe.

In that time I’ve tried to get various family, friends and collectors to post here. So far, nothing. Some of the reasons are not interested in posting, no extra time for it, concern over advertising what they have, etc..

 

I met up with a few collector friends this past SDCC. They were mostly interested in panels or nickel and dime shopping. They have a lot of the “big stuff” with keys, etc.. and only give booths like Heritage or Metro a peek to see what the going rates are today and they shrug. They have means and zero interest in parting with their stuff some of which I helped them obtain years ago.

So I understand and enjoy things like the boards here with sharing since I’ve become a bit more active myself in buying the last few years but I also understand just wanting to enjoy your collection privately with any interaction being limited to those close to you and limited to slight buying today.

 

excellent point

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, fishbone said:

On 7/28/2018 at 8:14 PM, Wayne-Tec said:

2) Why slab a book if you have no intention of selling? Well, who is it that has no intention of selling? Multi-millionaires...sure. But I’m skeptical if the implication is that most of these raw Action #1 owners match that profile.

 

Just reading this and adding another thought:

I think another reason to slab big ones might be to "help"  family members (heirs)  in the event of passing suddenly ...... if it's items that are only thousands, not sure I'd make a big deal about them, but tens or hundreds of thousands, may just make it that much easier to have  value established immediately at less cost to the beneficiaries ...........

Well, I believe that pretty well everybody (except for the Dentist probably) has the intention of eventually selling.

Note the key word that I have highlighted up above.  What's the point of slabbing your book if you don't plan to sell it yet, because it would only serve to increase the census numbers and if enough collectors do the same thing, could result in a possible devaluation of your grail book.  There is no point to give the impression to the marketplace that there are a lot of copies out there before you get around to selling your copy.  

[telerites]

3 hours ago, fishbone said:

Just reading this and adding another thought:

I think another reason to slab big ones might be to "help"  family members (heirs)  in the event of passing suddenly ...... if it's items that are only thousands, not sure I'd make a big deal about them, but tens or hundreds of thousands, may just make it that much easier to have  value established immediately at less cost to the beneficiaries ...........

I am actually doing this.  I had some significant health issues recently.  At 53 years and having nothing but good health and a very regimented, daily exercise routine, I thought I was invincible,  Until a year ago when my body broke down and not knowing if I would ever walk again.  I have one daughter and am divorced (after 20 years of marriage) and having now faced my mortality want it to be as easy as possible for my daughter to liquidate.  Happily after three surgeries and having to take more meds than I ever imagined (for the remainder of days), I am able to walk although I feel my running/racing days are well behind me.  Still lots of pain and will most likely always deal with that as I refuse to take prescription pain meds but again am walking unassisted now.

Of course, I have no six figure books though 

 

[N e r V]

That sucks. In my family 53 is like half way through life. Hope you stay happy/healthy going forward...

[N e r V]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Well, I believe that pretty well everybody (except for the Dentist probably) has the intention of eventually selling.

Note the key word that I have highlighted up above.  What's the point of slabbing your book if you don't plan to sell it yet, because it would only serve to increase the census numbers and if enough collectors do the same thing, could result in a possible devaluation of your grail book.  There is no point to give the impression to the marketplace that there are a lot of copies out there before you get around to selling your copy.  

Maybe you or someone else could start a thread about what percentage of us plan on never selling but taking it with us. 

Options include buying a massive plot to ensure the entire collection will fit or a more budget option with a smaller plot to include only the books named in our will or the el cheap option of having your entire collection burned with you during creamation...

 

 

[Wayne-Tec]

8 hours ago, entalmighty1 said:

This is pretty insane to me.

When I was 16, I was playing high school football, chasing girls, and worrying about the SAT/ACT to get into a decent college.  Comics like that were so far out of the realm of possibility to me it didn't even make sense to daydream about owning them.  I worked at a warehouse unloading 18 wheelers for $5.15 an hour, and was lucky to clear $100 bucks a paycheck, half of which went to helping my grandparents with bills.  After buying gas, and paying insurance, I typically had $15 a week to have fun with.  

Where in the world were you finding these books 10 years ago that you were able to afford them when you found them?

I recycled a lot of the same money invested by having to sell or trade when I wanted something new.

Coverless AF #15s could be had for, and don’t quote me on this, $500’ish? I was told that my trimmed Superman #1 centerfold was worth about $1,000 at the time. I won it on eBay for something like $300 and paid $50 for overnight shipping. I called up and established rapports with collectors and dealers.

I’ve been pretty deep into the coverless/key market for a long time. My dream books were the top GA books. I couldn’t afford complete copies so I studied the low grade/coverless/incomplete market closely and founds ways to make it happen.

At 29, I’m on my 5th Batman #1. When I sold my first, I thought I’d never get another.

[telerites]

54 minutes ago, N e r V said:

That sucks. In my family 53 is like half way through life. Hope you stay happy/healthy going forward...

Thanks so much.  Yeah, non-smoker, non-drinker, not overweight, healthy eater, et. al.  My dad is 89 and mom 79 - both going strong.  But I am on my way back.  I like pushing my body to the limit.  Over 15 years of never missing a day of running for 4-5 miles and riding my bike for 10 miles until my body rebelled   Actually it was an auto-immune condition and lots of stuff going quirky with my endocrine system - I know, TMI.  

But suffice to say, it prodded me to start thinking about all of junk that my daughter will inherit and taking some action.  The liquid assets that I have are easy of course but I have a ton of raw books and a storage full of vintage toys, games, action figures, dolls, etc.  So still lots of work left.  I want to at least get my more valuable books easier to move.  

Sorry for the mistrack of the thread.

[batman_fan]

2 hours ago, telerites said:

I am actually doing this.  I had some significant health issues recently.  At 53 years and having nothing but good health and a very regimented, daily exercise routine, I thought I was invincible,  Until a year ago when my body broke down and not knowing if I would ever walk again.  I have one daughter and am divorced (after 20 years of marriage) and having now faced my mortality want it to be as easy as possible for my daughter to liquidate.  Happily after three surgeries and having to take more meds than I ever imagined (for the remainder of days), I am able to walk although I feel my running/racing days are well behind me.  Still lots of pain and will most likely always deal with that as I refuse to take prescription pain meds but again am walking unassisted now.

Of course, I have no six figure books though 

 

Hope things continue to go well for you and your daughter has a LONG wait to liquidate your collection

[ComicConnoisseur]

2 hours ago, telerites said:

I am actually doing this.  I had some significant health issues recently.  At 53 years and having nothing but good health and a very regimented, daily exercise routine, I thought I was invincible,  Until a year ago when my body broke down and not knowing if I would ever walk again.  I have one daughter and am divorced (after 20 years of marriage) and having now faced my mortality want it to be as easy as possible for my daughter to liquidate.  Happily after three surgeries and having to take more meds than I ever imagined (for the remainder of days), I am able to walk although I feel my running/racing days are well behind me.  Still lots of pain and will most likely always deal with that as I refuse to take prescription pain meds but again am walking unassisted now.

Of course, I have no six figure books though 

 

I am glad you are better.  From what I hear from older friends is that most people start to break down in their 50s, especially men. It's something I guess I should expect in the future at 41 years old now. 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by ComicConnoisseur

[circumstances]

My original thought was to leave my collection to my kids.

Now that they're adults, I see that they appreciate them, but have no real love or interest in them.

I don't want to saddle them with the decision of keeping them (because they were mine), or selling them (and using the money to make their lives easier).

So, at some point, I will slab them, sell them, and leave them the $$ (or give them the money way before I drop dead, lol).

As of now I have slabbed zero books in my collection, and I have two of the four books this thread is discussing (among others, of course).

Edited August 1, 2018 by circumstances

[woowoo]

1 hour ago, Wayne-Tec said:

I recycled a lot of the same money invested by having to sell or trade when I wanted something new.

Coverless AF #15s could be had for, and don’t quote me on this, $500’ish? I was told that my trimmed Superman #1 centerfold was worth about $1,000 at the time. I won it on eBay for something like $300 and paid $50 for overnight shipping. I called up and established rapports with collectors and dealers.

I’ve been pretty deep into the coverless/key market for a long time. My dream books were the top GA books. I couldn’t afford complete copies so I studied the low grade/coverless/incomplete market closely and founds ways to make it happen.

At 29, I’m on my 5th Batman #1. When I sold my first, I thought I’d never get another.

I have a coverless Marvel 1 missing last page that I have had in a pile of beat up golden age for 30 years now. Do you have the last page to Marvel 1

[Wayne-Tec]

27 minutes ago, woowoo said:

I have a coverless Marvel 1 missing last page that I have had in a pile of beat up golden age for 30 years now. Do you have the last page to Marvel 1

Unfortunately I do not.

[N e r V]

I think this thread has settled the fact that I simply can not die.

I don’t think my books could live without me... 

 

[Chicago Boy]

55 minutes ago, circumstances said:

My original thought was to leave my collection to my kids.

Now that they're adults, I see that they appreciate them, but have no real love or interest in them.

I don't want to saddle them with the decision of keeping them (because they were mine), or selling them (and using the money to make their lives easier).

So, at some point, I will slab them, sell them, and leave them the $$ (or give them the money way before I drop dead, lol).

As of now I have slabbed zero books in my collection, and I have two of the four books this thread is discussing (among others, of course).

Which two ?  The “good ones” ?

[circumstances]

15 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

Which two ?  The “good ones” ?

No! Superman 1 and Batman 1, lol.

They're in my sig line, so I didn't specify

[pemart1966]

2 hours ago, N e r V said:

That sucks. In my family 53 is like half way through life. Hope you stay happy/healthy going forward...

Unfortunately you can't look at mom and dad and Aunt Tilley's longevity and say "I too can bank on living a long and healthy life because they have!"  Life doesn't work like that unfortunately.  There are NO guarantees in life.  DO NOT be fooled in to thinking that you have time to burn - nobody does.  

[N e r V]

53 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

Unfortunately you can't look at mom and dad and Aunt Tilley's longevity and say "I too can bank on living a long and healthy life because they have!"  Life doesn't work like that unfortunately.  There are NO guarantees in life.  DO NOT be fooled in to thinking that you have time to burn - nobody does.  

True, but you certainly can improve your odds...

[G.A.tor]

2 hours ago, circumstances said:

My original thought was to leave my collection to my kids.

Now that they're adults, I see that they appreciate them, but have no real love or interest in them.

I don't want to saddle them with the decision of keeping them (because they were mine), or selling them (and using the money to make their lives easier).

So, at some point, I will slab them, sell them, and leave them the $$ (or give them the money way before I drop dead, lol).

As of now I have slabbed zero books in my collection, and I have two of the four books this thread is discussing (among others, of course).

Hope you will call me when time to sell!