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B level art
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The recent thread regarding heritage auctions brought up the idea of A level vs B level art and how A level just soared past B level art.

It would be great for any here that have knowledge or opinions on the subject to share some examples of what they consider B or C level art.

That could be a combination of artist and title. 

As a starting point -(that is one example only)  feel free to argue against this - would folks agree that regardless of artist - all amazing Spider-Man art would be A art, while say marvel team-up is only B or C art depending on the artist? 

Are there other titles that come to mind? Perhaps A vs B could also be within the same series depending on the stories in a long running title? But in general are there title that are without a doubt B list.  I am thing as an example here - guardian of the galaxy - the movie was a hit - but the comic was never a huge hit. And while there was a bit more interest in the art after the movies - it's still all B run material?

Again - my hope in starting this thread is to identify what (in your opinions) is B list art.  I think many of us instinctively know what is A art -but with rising prices it's become harder to define what is B art.

 

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I think this is an onion with many layers.

 

If for example you're talking about all of the Daredevil original art ever created in human history, then ALL Frank Miller covers would be considered "A" or "god" tier.

But I'm sure some advanced collectors would consider some Miller DD covers to be "B" or "C" relative to other Miller DD or maybe just all other Miller material period.

 

So what does that make a really cool Scott McDaniel DD cover?  In the eyes of an advanced collector who's calling some Miller covers a "C" it probably doesn't even rate.

But in reality it's probably in the top 10-20% of all published DD art ever, right?

 

It's similar to discussing what the greatest movies ever made.  Awesome topic to discuss, and should be able to build some general consensus, but will never be definitive

 

 

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My opinion FWIW (which isn't a whole lot), is that when talking about A vs. B it isn't the title that matters but the particular example (titles definitely matter, but you can still have pletny of B and C pages on the most desired titles).  A level is excellent pen and ink work, generally by a highly regarded artist, which shows good subject matter (full figured battle scenes in general) or something else that makes it special (first appearance type stuff or from a particularly memorable run eg. lots of the Phoenix pages from the Dark Phoenix run).  While we are on the subject, I would be curious to hear any opinions on the Byrne X-men page that sold on HA (I was not the buyer).

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15 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

The recent thread regarding heritage auctions brought up the idea of A level vs B level art and how A level just soared past B level art.

It would be great for any here that have knowledge or opinions on the subject to share some examples of what they consider B or C level art.

That could be a combination of artist and title. 

As a starting point -(that is one example only)  feel free to argue against this - would folks agree that regardless of artist - all amazing Spider-Man art would be A art, while say marvel team-up is only B or C art depending on the artist? 

Are there other titles that come to mind? Perhaps A vs B could also be within the same series depending on the stories in a long running title? But in general are there title that are without a doubt B list.  I am thing as an example here - guardian of the galaxy - the movie was a hit - but the comic was never a huge hit. And while there was a bit more interest in the art after the movies - it's still all B run material?

Again - my hope in starting this thread is to identify what (in your opinions) is B list art.  I think many of us instinctively know what is A art -but with rising prices it's become harder to define what is B art.

 

My advice would be to get B level art while it is still (relatively) cheap. You saw the same thing happen in the comic book market, with the high grade keys going for higher and higher prices to the point where the mid-grade stuff started becoming more affordable for the average collector, and then you saw the prices of that start going up.

As for the definition, I think YMMV.

Edited by PhilipB2k17
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Related to what most of the comic art world values a piece, I'd say this value graph below may be a better way to evaluate art piece levels. Comparing 1 piece of art to another to get consensus of A vs B vs C vs D levels artistically is much harder to do.

$10,000+ is A level

$1000-$9999 is B level

$200-$999 is C level

$1-$199 is D level

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2 minutes ago, Timely said:

Related to what most of the comic art world values a piece, I'd say this value graph below may be a better way to evaluate art piece levels. Comparing 1 piece of art to another to get consensus of A vs B vs C vs D levels artistically is much harder to do.

$10,000+ is A level

$1000-$9999 is B level

$200-$999 is C level

$1-$199 is D level

Not that I buy any, but I imagine most modern art would fall into your C and D category...surely there are A levels for modern artists without hitting the 10K mark? 

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53 minutes ago, Timely said:

Related to what most of the comic art world values a piece, I'd say this value graph below may be a better way to evaluate art piece levels. Comparing 1 piece of art to another to get consensus of A vs B vs C vs D levels artistically is much harder to do.

$10,000+ is A level

$1000-$9999 is B level

$200-$999 is C level

$1-$199 is D level

I would have to disagree with this, there's been recent cases of newer collectors spending well over $10K on modern art that many more experienced/older collectors wouldn't call A Level.  This example gives too wide a berth for definition of the terms.

 

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9 minutes ago, Doc McCoy said:

I would have to disagree with this, there's been recent cases of newer collectors spending well over $10K on modern art that many more experienced/older collectors wouldn't call A Level.  This example gives too wide a berth for definition of the terms.

 

This is also the problem with trying to create umbrella terms.

1 person's "A" level is another's drek.

But i think when high end collectors talk about "A" level art, it's both storyline and example.  So the true "A" stuff is a best of breed page in one of the classic storylines.

I think if you want to get a hint of what people consider those things, Felix's podcast talked about it a good amount.  The "portfolio" of examples you need to have a high end collection.  (Hint: DRK is on that list)

Where a "B" page is a secondary example from one of those classic storylines.  So the art might still fetch 45k, but it's not a great page from that run because "A" examples are 150k.  But another classic run that 45k might get you a true "A" Example, and 15k gets you a "B" page.

Edited by Pete Marino
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When determining a piece of OA's "level", I compare its artistic merits and canonical significance against the:

  1. Artist's body of work on that title;
  2. Artist's body of work in that genre (e.g. judging a Lim SS page against all his early-'90s Marvel Cosmic work); and
  3. Artist's overall body of work.

A piece that tops all 3 categories is that artist's "A+ level" work.

You can then determine a piece's "level" within a title by comparing it against that title's other artists' works of the same "level". Expanding that genre-wide (e.g. all Batman OA), then hobby-wide (i.e. all American OA), hurts my head :insane:

In summary, an OA's "level" can be relative to the artist, title, genre and overall hobby 2c

 

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14 minutes ago, O. said:

When determining a piece of OA's "level", I compare its artistic merits and canonical significance against the:

  1. Artist's body of work on that title;
  2. Artist's body of work in that genre (e.g. judging a Lim SS page against all his early-'90s Marvel Cosmic work); and
  3. Artist's overall body of work.

A piece that tops all 3 categories is that artist's "A+ level" work.

You can then determine a piece's "level" within a title by comparing it against that title's other artists' works of the same "level". Expanding that genre-wide (e.g. all Batman OA), then hobby-wide (i.e. all American OA), hurts my head :insane:

In summary, an OA's "level" can be relative to the artist, title, genre and overall hobby 2c

 

I can't agree with #1. For instance, I think the McFarlane Batman #423 cover is A level & he was only on the title briefly. So that doesn't really work (at least not for me).

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When I rank art, I find I don't take price into consideration. Rather, I ask myself "how many examples out there would be just as good (or better) than this one?". If there are only a few, it's an A example. If there are many better examples, it gets a C or lower. Actual valuations are dependent on the market for any given artist/title and happen outside of my grading process. Because an A level Millie the Model page will always sell for less than a D level Romita ASM page. 

The issue I see collectors having with B examples is that they are the easiest to mis-price. They are the "I'd like to have but don't absolutely need" pages. And when funds are needed, it's not easy to quickly find collectors to pay top dollar for them. As such, a lot of the high end guys gravitate to the A stuff because they think someone will always want the best of the best. Value focused collectors aim for the C & D examples because they aren't priced as speculatively as the high end stuff. Right or wrong, it seems very few collectors consider B level stuff to be cost effective for what it is.

And that's a shame, as B level art is the backbone of many of my favorite art collections. Hell, a big chunk of my collection is art I would classify as B. A B example is often nice enough that I feel good about having it, without breaking the bank to get it (usually).

 

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I too think A, B, and C are all relatively and can't be defined by pricing or rigid definitions of context.  Heck, you can even have A splash vs B splash on the same title and A panel page vs. B panel page on the same title.

Here is a practical example, since the bulk of my collection is probably B (I suppose by definition very few people have collections that are mostly A).

Kevin Maguire One Punch page (not mine) - A - CAF Link

The page after the one punch page (mine), still lots of great content, but only a B relative to the one punch page - CAF Link

Regards,

Malvin

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1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

I don't think there is a quantifiable measure of what is A, B, C or D level art.  Market value definitely doesn't work - a $130K Andy Kubert cover like UXM #266 is clearly A-level, but a twice-up Kirby FF cover at that valuation is probably C or D level to be that low.  $105K for a Kirby splash page is probably going to be A-level; $105K for a twice-up Romita ASM cover like the #55 that just sold is C or D level.  Also, some expensive pieces are simply overpriced crepe. :sumo: 

Neither is the proposed content scale (in and out of costume, action/no action, etc.) going to work.  The "Face It Tiger, You Just Hit the Jackpot!" page has no costumed heroes, no villains and no action.  And, yet, it's an A+++ level page.   Nor is the primary title vs. secondary title argument, or better or worse artist argument criteria broadly applicable.  The PPSS #64 cover (PPSS being a B-list title, and issue #64 being drawn by C-listers Hannigan and Milgrom) is still an A-level piece of art (it's the first Cloak & Dagger).  And, yet, there are many ASM covers by bigger names that would be considered B/C/D level relative to better examples out there. 

IMO, the A-level is reserved for the best in class examples out there, and encompasses a much smaller % of the art that exists, even the valuable art, than most people think.  Though, certainly not all best in class examples are A-level pieces of art (e.g., the best examples by a bad artist may not rise to the level necessary, and neither would the best examples from series and artists that no one cares about).  What makes something best in class can vary - important content (e.g., first appearances, death of a character, memorable scene); exceptional rendering (e.g., Doc Strange #55 pages); large, iconic, broadly desirable images; from a popular/memorable/critically lauded creator run, etc.  Though, again, best in class is a subset of these.  Not every page featuring a death or first appearance rises to the level of best in class.  Not every Doc Strange #55 page is A level (even though every page may still be desirable).  Not every splashy Jim Lee page qualifies as A-level.  2c 

The Mona Lisa is, objectively, not Leonardo’s best painting. Yet, it’s an A+++++

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Some criteria that I am putting out for discussion  

A - Level

1. 1st App of a major character, regardless of artist, or even aesthetic value (See Hulk 180 Wolverine final panel Page by Trimpe: Nyx 3 Cover, etc.) 

2. One of the best pages from an alltime classic comic run, regardless of title or artist. 

—— a. Featuring a critically important          scene from the story;

        b. Cover from that run

        c. Featuring a classic or quintessential depiction of the main character or characters in that classic run

3. An iconic cover, regardless of artist, character or title. 

4. A classic/ quintessential example of an iconic artist’s depiction of one of his or her signature characters during a period regarded as that artist’s prime, and a high point or era for the character or book.  Example,  a high quality John Buscema cosmic surfer Page. 

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1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Some criteria that I am putting out for discussion  

A - Level

1. 1st App of a major character, regardless of artist, or even aesthetic value (See Hulk 180 Wolverine final panel Page by Trimpe: Nyx 3 Cover, etc.) 

2. One of the best pages from an alltime classic comic run, regardless of title or artist. 

—— a. Featuring a critically important          scene from the story;

        b. Cover from that run

        c. Featuring a classic or quintessential depiction of the main character or characters in that classic run

3. An iconic cover, regardless of artist, character or title. 

4. A classic/ quintessential example of an iconic artist’s depiction of one of his or her signature characters during a period regarded as that artist’s prime, and a high point or era for the character or book.  Example,  a high quality John Buscema cosmic surfer Page. 

I thought this thread was about defining what B was? :insane:

Malvin

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