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B level art
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92 posts in this topic

Some random thoughts:

I agree with Gene's and Dan's cogent view's above, including the idea that B pieces are often mis-priced----intentionally or indifferently (and less frequently mistakenly) by dealers and mistakenly or from a wilfull blindness or wishful thinking perspective by collectors.  Dealers see that a better (B+/A?) page sells for say $10k and suddenly their B- and B pages in that book or in that run or by that artist are all repriced at $10k (or more).  So dealers asking A level prices for B level pieces.  That lack of differentiation sometimes is done by collectors as well, especially when selling.  They convince themselves that their B piece should command A level prices.  A few times over the last 6 years a John Buscema 70s Avengers page sold for a new all time high on HA.  Each time seeing that public price, dealers increased their pricing on similar but not has nice JB Avengers pages (ie, B level pieces) to at or above the public auction price for the B+/A level pieces --and some collectors privately offered B level pages for the A level auction prices.

Back to the overall discussion and thinking first about what is A level material to then see what B level is (and I think it's overall more interesting (and may be easier) to discuss what constitutes A level vs what constitutes B level) ---I think a tricky part comes in with how we define the "class" in "best in class"  including how big or small that group is.  Is it a particular artist on a book or run?  Artist overall across books (besides A level X-Men pages, can John Byrne have A level FF pieces, A level Champion pieces, A level Cap pieces, A level MTU pieces, etc.).   What about Kirby?  Can his mid/late 70s stint at Marvel have A level pieces vs his 60s/early 70s Marvel?  Is best in class judged by looking at a particular character run or storyline?   What about middle of the road artists--Can they have A level work that is not historic/first appearance?  

Al Milgrom jumps to mind--let's take him as an artist as the "class."  I presume Al Milgrom is on no ones artist A list, but can he have a A level piece?  To me, yes.

His singular work on the cover to Iron Man 96 where he was clearly aping/channeling Kirby (and reflecting a darn cool story--IM vs Ultimo with IM getting beaten up but not giving up) is a A level piece to me.  And other than maybe Firestorm 1 where he was aping/channeling John Buscema and which is Firestorm's first appearance,  I cannot think of another cover of his that I would view as A level (I am probably forgetting some--note, Hulk 271 is not Rocket Raccoon's first appearance).  So besides that small handful, that basically puts the rest of Al Milgrom covers as B or below.  Fair?  Unfair?  

 

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51 minutes ago, Ironmandrd said:

Some random thoughts:

I agree with Gene's and Dan's cogent view's above, including the idea that B pieces are often mis-priced----intentionally or indifferently (and less frequently mistakenly) by dealers and mistakenly or from a wilfull blindness or wishful thinking perspective by collectors.  Dealers see that a better (B+/A?) page sells for say $10k and suddenly their B- and B pages in that book or in that run or by that artist are all repriced at $10k (or more).  So dealers asking A level prices for B level pieces.  That lack of differentiation sometimes is done by collectors as well, especially when selling.  They convince themselves that their B piece should command A level prices.  A few times over the last 6 years a John Buscema 70s Avengers page sold for a new all time high on HA.  Each time seeing that public price, dealers increased their pricing on similar but not has nice JB Avengers pages (ie, B level pieces) to at or above the public auction price for the B+/A level pieces --and some collectors privately offered B level pages for the A level auction prices.

Back to the overall discussion and thinking first about what is A level material to then see what B level is (and I think it's overall more interesting (and may be easier) to discuss what constitutes A level vs what constitutes B level) ---I think a tricky part comes in with how we define the "class" in "best in class"  including how big or small that group is.  Is it a particular artist on a book or run?  Artist overall across books (besides A level X-Men pages, can John Byrne have A level FF pieces, A level Champion pieces, A level Cap pieces, A level MTU pieces, etc.).   What about Kirby?  Can his mid/late 70s stint at Marvel have A level pieces vs his 60s/early 70s Marvel?  Is best in class judged by looking at a particular character run or storyline?   What about middle of the road artists--Can they have A level work that is not historic/first appearance?  

Al Milgrom jumps to mind--let's take him as an artist as the "class."  I presume Al Milgrom is on no ones artist A list, but can he have a A level piece?  To me, yes.

His singular work on the cover to Iron Man 96 where he was clearly aping/channeling Kirby (and reflecting a darn cool story--IM vs Ultimo with IM getting beaten up but not giving up) is a A level piece to me.  And other than maybe Firestorm 1 where he was aping/channeling John Buscema and which is Firestorm's first appearance,  I cannot think of another cover of his that I would view as A level (I am probably forgetting some--note, Hulk 271 is not Rocket Raccoon's first appearance).  So besides that small handful, that basically puts the rest of Al Milgrom covers as B or below.  Fair?  Unfair?  

 

I'm not sure I agree with the "best in class" designation for A list art. Is the "best in class" Tim Truman Grimjack page an A page from a collector's standpoint? It may be for SOME (me, included!) but Grimjack and Truman are not A-list (or even B list in many people's eyes). Then again, maybe the 1st appearance of Grimjack MIGHT be an A page, and possibly the cover of #1? They are certainly A's for certain types of collectors. But, maybe  not most of the rest of the hobby. But, other than that, would any pages come close?

 

Edited by PhilipB2k17
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Is it fair to say that A vs B etc..  should be used in comparing similar era stuff.  So silver age A should not be compared to modern or bronze A.  But rather to other art from the same period?

Another thought on the topic - barring a top name artist or key appearence/story- can a really well done piece be an A anyhow? Or is it B or worse without top name talent and story element.?  

 

 

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Also - as a related story - I had spoken with Davis Finch once and he told me that he would charge differently for similar art based on the title. So batman art went for more than batman in detective - and that according to him had to do with demand from fans.  

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Not much to add but for me it's always broken down as the top pages in a particular comic book (Cover, Splash, Hero in costume and battle etc) were the A pages and everything else was B or lower.  If you then start cross-comparison across books, artists etc. it gets subjective pretty quick and I guess you end up chalking it up to monetary value to determine "A" pages across the hobby.  So yeah agreeing with what others said that it depends on how you define A art and which category you are focusing on/emphasizing when doing so.

 

Ibzan

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I was trying to get this one started as I think the conclusion that A art is killing B art is likely true but when people are disappointed in what a given piece garners, I feel it is because it is not an A or B but a C or D

The A value list is on these boards and it is for PANEL pages organized by Artist and by Title so A vs. B. vs C is within that taxonomy - given a panel page is by Artist 1 and from Title 1 what makes an A vs. B vs. C?

It is not a science - most will agree on an A (unless they are buying/selling) but some factors that I am sure others have pointed out that separate a B from a C/D include:

1. Amount/Size of key characters on the page (hero/heroine preferably in costume, popular villains, sexy love interests) and can you see their faces?  This is a pretty easy one to evaluate

2. Significance of the content in the storyline and the story itself - this can be a mystery, especially to a new collector and may vary by collector which is a good thing - especially if trading

3. Is it an action / Battle page or does it have some compelling content or dialogue - generally easy to spot but again, opportunity for preferences arise

4. Artistic merit - is it recognized as a peak period for the artist? is there some inventive layout, is the artists trademark there (e.g., Kirby Krackle), is the inking additive or ruinous, is the anatomy productive or annoying? - this is one that I feel is often overlooked but it has kept me from bidding on pieces.

5. Condition - Yes, it is not a comic but if it is a mess of whiteout, heavily tanned or pee-d on, et al it will knock the price down - remember it is not an A...there are always other B or C pages!

In the recent Heritage auction, the results were strong - but there were a few consigners that felt their pages went low but if you assess the pages against the above, you may see why they did not make the desired price

That is off the top of my head so feel free to enhance

Mark

 

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5 hours ago, Ironmandrd said:

Al Milgrom jumps to mind--let's take him as an artist as the "class."  I presume Al Milgrom is on no ones artist A list, but can he have a A level piece?  To me, yes.

His singular work on the cover to Iron Man 96 where he was clearly aping/channeling Kirby (and reflecting a darn cool story--IM vs Ultimo with IM getting beaten up but not giving up) is a A level piece to me.  And other than maybe Firestorm 1 where he was aping/channeling John Buscema and which is Firestorm's first appearance,  I cannot think of another cover of his that I would view as A level (I am probably forgetting some--note, Hulk 271 is not Rocket Raccoon's first appearance).  So besides that small handful, that basically puts the rest of Al Milgrom covers as B or below.  Fair?  Unfair?  

Sorry to Mr. Milgrom, but no, not fair. I think you have to separate out "market value" from artistic merit.

I don't think you can fairly slot artwork as A, B, C, except as shorthand for saying something will be in high demand or low demand and can be priced accordingly. A goodly portion of the price of OA seems based on the artist(s), the character, the book and art type (cover, splash, etc.) The quality of a particular piece will affect the price, of course, but how it is slotted by artist, etc. seems to carry a lot more weight. So, if Mr. Milgrom did a particular piece which you think is a masterpiece, it won't carry the price of say, Kirby, for a medium grade equivalent. 

And by the way, if you think something is an A piece, who cares what someone else thinks unless you are thinking of re-sale?

 

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It’s interesting that there are so many different perspectives, I have always thought it was pretty standard that art grading took place in each specific project/artist and used the grading system to rank pieces in terms of desirability amongst the material, not the overall desirability in the hobby itself. 

Very very roughly as it is much more art than science.

A page - Character in costume in action against rogue or other very significant page from story.

B - Main character in costume some action or strong out of action page. Strong rogue pages

C page - Main character in costume potentially but small image/talking heads. Main character out of costume. 

D - pages with very little desirability. No important characters no costumes boring dialogue etc 

 

 

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There are just too many variables to account for in determining an A and B page. I would say that any page from the killing joke is an A page. But within the book I would be able to rank all pages from A to D or Z for that matter. Should price determine whether a page is pushed up from B to A or vice versa ? Doubt we will ever get a meaningful consensus. From a totally utilitarian perspective, price paid is probably the best determinant on what is a 'quality' page. Which is why the 120k KJ page can't be anything else but an A page. Not to say that there are no A+ pages in KJ. 

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I think everyone is trying to make a totally relative standard into an absolute standard.  Comparing a Killing Joke page to a piece of modern art is a fruitless exercise.  In a modern run, there are those pages that a fan would argue are "A" pages.  I say, great!  But, since every page of the Killing Joke would sell for much more, does that suddenly make all of them "A" pages, and the modern art somehow lesser?  It's a relative, and perhaps more importantly, a personal standard.  

Always interested in a respectful debate over which page in a particular book is an A, but I can guarantee you that very few pages will get uniform agreement.

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42 minutes ago, rsonenthal said:

I think everyone is trying to make a totally relative standard into an absolute standard.  Comparing a Killing Joke page to a piece of modern art is a fruitless exercise.  In a modern run, there are those pages that a fan would argue are "A" pages.  I say, great!  But, since every page of the Killing Joke would sell for much more, does that suddenly make all of them "A" pages, and the modern art somehow lesser?  It's a relative, and perhaps more importantly, a personal standard.  

Always interested in a respectful debate over which page in a particular book is an A, but I can guarantee you that very few pages will get uniform agreement.

My suggestion, let's leverage the work already done - there is a thread on A list values for PANEL pages organized by Artist and by Title so A vs. B. vs C can be within that taxonomy - given a panel page is by Artist 1 and from Title 1 what makes an A vs. B vs. C.

Edited by mtlevy1
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16 hours ago, Nexus said:

The KILLING JOKE page that just sold for $120K is, IMO, a B example. So I would not consider artist, title, or price as final arbiter. At all.

Yeah, I looked at it again and have to agree.  Maybe a B+ if we're grading on a curve.  It's definitely not a $120K piece IMO - to me, this feels like someone overpaid to have a solid example that was available right now.  

That said, this is the kind of "good" B-level art.  It may not have the best elements that you'd want in a KJ page (Batman + Joker fighting each other, or, otherwise, a very memorable/key moment in the story), BUT, it is beautifully laid out from a sequential storytelling perspective, beautifully drawn of course, and wonderfully atmospheric.  It just doesn't have the content that would lead most to say it was a solid A page.  But, it's still a very desirable piece of artwork.

That's also how I would describe the Wrightson Frankenstein plate in my collection.  I think most would call it a B-level plate because there's no Monster in it (not all plates with the Monster are A-level, to be sure).  But, to me, it's the good kind of B, because it's so wonderfully, impossibly rendered - beautiful, evocative, moving.  IMO, it's better-drawn than all but a handful of plates in the book, Monster-containing or otherwise (and, it is one of the 44 plates published in the original edition).  But, as with the KJ page #1, it doesn't have the content that people associate with a perfect example. And, I'm OK with that - like I said, there's "good" B-level art and "bad" B-level art - my Frankie plate pressed the right buttons for me at a price I didn't have to break the bank for.   

And, as you can tell by my examples, these tiers apply *within* the specific type of art we're talking about.  A "B" Killing Joke or Frankenstein piece is still going to be more valuable and desirable than 90-98% of the "A" other art out there.  And, that's how I think you have to look at it.  What makes an A/B/C ____ piece, as A/B/C are most often not comparable across artists, eras, titles, etc.  Best in class is the criteria to me. 

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It is impossible to define A, B, C, etc.  Each person has a different definition one persons A is another persons D. Take the killing joke stuff. Based on people’s post about the work, most people would put it in the A category. Myself, I think the work is mediocre and would put it in the C category. I think the same would be true for many items. 

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Great discussion, very insightful!

I came over from comics where condition-based tiering grew to be somewhat obsessive since the advent of CGC grading. I'd see collectors discussing subtle differences between 7.5 and 8.0 and seemingly forget to appreciate they are holding a 75-year-old copy of Batman #1.  Naturally, every hobby has certain metrics to separate good, great and truly exceptional.  Thankfully, the OA hobby is much less focused on condition issues, so we can introduce a tiering structure (A,B,C) to distinguish quality.  I'm all for it as tiering helps explain pricing/value differences among similar pieces (ie, same artist, title, character, arc or even issue).

Agree that A,B,C tiering is subjective as every collector has personal sense of quality and a different set of priorities.  I have a practical interpretation of quality given my collecting focus is obtaining single representative pieces by artist and title/character.  My own tiering structure is as follows:

A - "One and done" piece - Checks all the boxes AND resonates with me personally (= nostalgia and/or aesthetics), no desire to upgrade, no need to consider other examples that come to market/auction.  It doesn't have to be the best, probably in Top 5% of examples.  Viewed as permanent collection.   Example:  Byrne X-men page, strong team shot and/or Wolverine in-costume, claws slashing

B - "Makes the grade" - Checks most boxes and my personal collecting criteria but open to upgrade to A-level example (via trade or subsequent sale).   Solid trade chip...Top 25-30% of examples.   Ex: Byrne X-men page, partial team panel with Wolverine out of costume

C - "Fits the bill" piece...Checks a few boxes but leaves a lot to be desired. Not long-term hold but can enjoy for several years.  Middle 30-70% of examples but can trade towards A-level piece in lower category (ie, Byrne Iron Fist or Kubert X-Men page).   Ex: Byrne X-men page with 2 heroes, no Wolverine.

D - "Fills the hole" piece - Checks 1-2 boxes but not much else...a temporary placeholder until another example is found.  I generally avoid D-level pieces unless scarcity or necessity (offered in trade or compelling value) dictate otherwise.    Ex: Byrne X-Men page with 1 hero or villain, out of action.

This is my 2c.  Your mileage will vary.  

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35 minutes ago, GreatEscape said:

Ex: Byrne X-men page with 2 heroes, no Wolverine.

This is my 2c.  Your mileage will vary.  

Unless it's the panel page with Scott and Jean from X-Men 137 where Jean dies. I'd say that's probably an A page. :wink:

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