Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[Bomber-Bob]

I think we are losing the focus of the big picture. While I honestly do feel for the buyer, he bought a 3rd party graded book, sent it to another 3rd party graded service and did not get the expected results. So, the bigger picture is who's fault is it ? If, as many here feel, the seller is responsible, this opens up more nightmare situations going forward. Say you sell a CGC graded book and the buyers submits it for a resub and it comes back a lower grade. Is the seller now responsible for this ? The more I consider this, I think the buyer took a gamble, lost, and it's nobody fault.

[justafan]

Question: Is the ebay seller one of PGX's known seller handles or belong to one of the stores that is one of their main customers for slabbing.  I've heard they often slab and sell their own books which is one of the other HUGE reasons to avoid them but I've also heard that some stores in the Northwest (I think) have a pretty good relationship with them and use them for slabbing.  If so, you're fight is still likely with the seller/PGX.

The lessons learned here: other than avoiding PGX graded books in general are:

1. If the price is at a huge discount to what other graded copies are going for, think twice and if you still decide to take the plunge, prepare for some butthurt and follow #2 below

2. Document the hell out of the purchase and take multiple clear photos of the book prior to cracking out or sending in to CGC.  That way hopefully you can prove that the book in the PGX holder is the same one that you cracked out and had regraded.

3. Lastly, if you're still going to buy PGX books and have them sent in for regrading with CGC, ALWAYS send it to CCS first for restoration check with special instructions to call before cracking out of the slab.  They will perform an initial review of the comic while still in the slab and if they can find something without cracking it out they will let you know before doing anything to the book.  However, in this example where they wouldn't be able to tell without cracking out the book further, you will need to also request that they go ahead and crack it out and notify you if there are any issues with the book prior to sending on to CGC for grading.  This way they would have caught the missing pages and you would have a 3rd party as a witness.  From there you could have it shipped back to you only paying the restoration pre-screen fee and request a return.

At this point you may be screwed unless you have good photos of it before and after.  I would still try.  Go though paypal, explain the situation and send photos.  You may be able to get CGC to send you a statement proving they received this still in it's PGX case with cert # and did crack it out and found it missing pages to certify it is the same book.

If the seller is a PGX reseller or affiliated with the company they should be able to get this resolved.  If it's some poor unlucky schmuck that bought this 2nd hand he may have to eat it and learn not to sell PGX books but if ebay or paypal end up in a stalemate, perhaps you can negotiate a partial discount that amounts to what a Qualified CGC grade would go for.  Good luck.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

30 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

But how is the seller (or E-Bay for that matter) sure you didn't break out the book and then mix up the copies you have and now are calling foul.  And add in the fact that the previously slabbed book is now in a new slab and harder to determine which book is which I will go out on a limb and say E-Bay will side with the seller on this one.  Not sure how Paypal deals with it but I see the seller winning in this case (especially if it's been a few months since the sale).

How does any seller know that when they send a raw book out? 

You have detailed pictures and scans. If you, a seller, don't take detailed scans and/or pictures, you're inviting problems. You document the hell out of it, as a matter of standard practice.

You don't PUT the book in a new slab until you're satisfied with the book. This situation is unfortunate, and hopefully, the buyer has done his own due diligence, and fully documented the book in its various stages. 

I know it seems this way on eBay, but you really can't just swap copies and have eBay blindly side with you as a buyer.

[Skeptic_Kepp]

2 hours ago, zuckuss2003 said:

How is PGX still in business?

It doesn't help that there are comic book YouTube channels promoting PGX and claiming that anti-PGX people are just following herd mentality.

I almost fell for it myself. I'm so glad I stumbled upon these forums when I started researching getting back into collecting.

[1Cool]

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

How does any seller know that when they send a raw book out? 

You have detailed pictures and scans. If you, a seller, don't take detailed scans and/or pictures, you're inviting problems. You document the hell out of it, as a matter of standard practice.

You don't PUT the book in a new slab until you're satisfied with the book. This situation is unfortunate, and hopefully, the buyer has done his own due diligence, and fully documented the book in its various stages. 

I know it seems this way on eBay, but you really can't just swap copies and have eBay blindly side with you as a buyer.

I see your point but a raw book can be inspected by the seller whereas a slabbed book (assuming they did not send it in to get graded) is not able to be graded by the seller.  Unless you break out every slab and get the book regraded you really have no idea what the inside of a book looks like when you sell slabs.  PGX just opens a huge can of worms since they present themselves at experts that you can trust and it appears to be misplaced trust based on their track record. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by 1Cool

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, entalmighty1 said:

I understand the sentiment here, but I disagree.  You're not really buying a product, you're buying secondhand ownership of a third party service.  I don't see how that makes the seller of the book responsible.  It's just a gamble that didn't pay off.  

The seller is responsible for delivering what was advertised. "But they advertised a PGX graded book, and delivered that!" is the argument, right? Except that that doesn't create an automatic "as is" disclaimer for the seller. The seller is the one responsible to do his/her due diligence, and the implication is that the item is complete, at a minimum. If I sell a Batman #537 with a torn out page, and don't mention that, then I didn't sell a Batman #537...I sold an incomplete copy of Batman #537, or I sold parts of a Batman #537...not a Batman #537.

It wouldn't matter if it was PGX, CBCS, or even CGC...if the item isn't as described, whether by the seller or the third party grader, it's the seller's responsibility to the buyer. Just because a book is graded, it doesn't give any seller the ability to wash their hands of the responsibility. And then it becomes the responsibility of the seller to go back and seek compensation to the point where the problem started.

Think about this: you're selling your house. You have an HVAC company come in and install a new a/c unit. You advertise that as a selling point. You sell the house, and the buyer discovers that the a/c unit wasn't actually replaced. Who is the responsible party to the buyer, the former owner of the home, or the HVAC company? In that case, the former owner. It is then the former owner's responsibility to go after the HVAC company to make it right. 

Same with these scenarios. If the seller wasn't the one who slabbed it, it is his/her responsibility to seek compensation from the person who sold it to them, until you get back to PGX.

Commerce doesn't work if it's "just a gamble that didn't pay off." A buyer has a right to receive what they purchased.

[october]

23 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

How does any seller know that when they send a raw book out? 

You have detailed pictures and scans. If you, a seller, don't take detailed scans and/or pictures, you're inviting problems. You document the hell out of it, as a matter of standard practice.

You don't PUT the book in a new slab until you're satisfied with the book. This situation is unfortunate, and hopefully, the buyer has done his own due diligence, and fully documented the book in its various stages. 

I know it seems this way on eBay, but you really can't just swap copies and have eBay blindly side with you as a buyer.

Have you, or anyone else on here, gotten to that point?

Curious how eBay actually handles a disputed return with a legitimate complaint when the book was removed from the holder (CGC or PGX) and the process documented. 

[thunsicker]

11 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

11 hours ago, IkewithMike said:

Broke the golden rule.

 

Never ever buy from PGX, no matter what

Look I'm not defending PGX but this can, and has, happened with CGC graded books also. The grading companies hide behind the grading is subjective rule and sometimes the last guy holding the book suffers. This is indeed a nightmare situation.

While I have seen minor restoration missed by CGC and/or grade differences between two submissions I don't know that I have ever seen a CGC comic where the page count was missed.  And while I realize the Guarantee in CGC is limited I have heard of instances where they made someone whole in situations where missed restoration was caught.  Maybe I'm fooling myself, but I feel much safer (both from a professionalism standpoint and from a chance that the company will stand behind their product) buying from CGC than PGX.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, 1Cool said:

I see your point but a raw book can be inspected by the seller whereas a slabbed book (assuming they did not send it in to get graded) is not able to be graded by the seller.  Unless you break out every slab and get the book regraded you really have no idea what the inside of a book looks like when you sell slabs.  PGX just opens a huge can of worms since they present themselves at experts that you can trust and it appears to be misplaced trust based on their track record. 

And that's precisely why every PGX graded book should be treated like a raw book, and broken open to inspect by the buyer. Given the long and very, very public record of PGX engaging in negligent and outright fraudulent behavior, a seller's not going to be able to hide behind "It's third party graded, not my responsibility!"

Due diligence is required. If I Google "PGX comics", the 4th result is a thread on this board that discusses the very serious problems of PGX.

"But what about the buyer? Shouldn't THEY be doing THEIR due diligence?" Absolutely! But the responsibility is always on the seller, who is representing the item, to accurately do so. Once the buyer buys the PGX graded book and receives it...it's now their responsibility to make sure what they bought is what they received. And if they don't...they generally lose their right to make a claim against the seller.

This is all general, not about this specific case.

Edited August 8, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[entalmighty1]

22 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The seller is responsible for delivering what was advertised. "But they advertised a PGX graded book, and delivered that!" is the argument, right? Except that that doesn't create an automatic "as is" disclaimer for the seller. The seller is the one responsible to do his/her due diligence, and the implication is that the item is complete, at a minimum. If I sell a Batman #537 with a torn out page, and don't mention that, then I didn't sell a Batman #537...I sold an incomplete copy of Batman #537, or I sold parts of a Batman #537...not a Batman #537.

It wouldn't matter if it was PGX, CBCS, or even CGC...if the item isn't as described, whether by the seller or the third party grader, it's the seller's responsibility to the buyer. Just because a book is graded, it doesn't give any seller the ability to wash their hands of the responsibility. And then it becomes the responsibility of the seller to go back and seek compensation to the point where the problem started.

Think about this: you're selling your house. You have an HVAC company come in and install a new a/c unit. You advertise that as a selling point. You sell the house, and the buyer discovers that the a/c unit wasn't actually replaced. Who is the responsible party to the buyer, the former owner of the home, or the HVAC company? In that case, the former owner. It is then the former owner's responsibility to go after the HVAC company to make it right. 

Same with these scenarios. If the seller wasn't the one who slabbed it, it is his/her responsibility to seek compensation from the person who sold it to them, until you get back to PGX.

Commerce doesn't work if it's "just a gamble that didn't pay off." A buyer has a right to receive what they purchased.

I completely agree with the premise of what you're saying.  I understand the logic behind it, but I still just can't get behind this being the seller's responsibility.

I look at it more like buying a leaf blower at a garage sale than buying a house.  The owner tells you "it worked when I used it last, but that's been a while."  Now, you're free to try it before you commit, but once you buy it, the money is gone.  It has a taillight warranty.  That PGX label screams "as-is" to me, as it should to anybody that does even a tiny bit of research before dropping 5k on a book that company touches.

[RockMyAmadeus]

33 minutes ago, october said:

Have you, or anyone else on here, gotten to that point?

I've never had a dispute involving a cracked open slab, no.

Every time I've had a dispute, I've documented the ever living hell out of it, taking 15,000 or so pictures, to make sure that no one is in any position of saying "that's not the book I sent you!"

I can think of maybe once or twice someone tried to make that claim, but that was a very long time ago (maybe 2004, 2005?), and they were quickly shut down by the overwhelming amount of evidence I provided. The beauty of generally sloppy printing for decades: it's realllllly hard to find identical-looking copies in every respect before about the mid 90s. And once you have wear markers, that pretty much seals the deal.

I think it's gotten to the point where someone at eBay had to make the decision, but again, I provide so much evidence, I've yet to lose any case to a "that's not what I sent you!" claim.

...but, then again, I've bought maybe two PGX graded books, ever? And maybe 3 CBCS graded books?

Edited August 8, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[The Lions Den]

10 minutes ago, thunsicker said:

While I have seen minor restoration missed by CGC and/or grade differences between two submissions I don't know that I have ever seen a CGC comic where the page count was missed.  And while I realize the Guarantee in CGC is limited I have heard of instances where they made someone whole in situations where missed restoration was caught.  Maybe I'm fooling myself, but I feel much safer (both from a professionalism standpoint and from a chance that the company will stand behind their product) buying from CGC than PGX.

Good point. 

Apparently PGX doesn't actually count the pages or look for restoration. For me, that's a huge difference. I've purchased many CGC books and I've never found one with missing pages or missed resto. 

And, in this case, two pages were missing. Any grader worth his salt should be able to detect the thickness/weight difference of this book even before counting the pages...

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, entalmighty1 said:

I completely agree with the premise of what you're saying.  I understand the logic behind it, but I still just can't get behind this being the seller's responsibility.

I look at it more like buying a leaf blower at a garage sale than buying a house.  The owner tells you "it worked when I used it last, but that's been a while."  Now, you're free to try it before you commit, but once you buy it, the money is gone.  It has a taillight warranty.  That PGX label screams "as-is" to me, as it should to anybody that does even a tiny bit of research before dropping 5k on a book that company touches.

But the buyer has the ability to inspect the leaf blower for himself before buying the item. He can "look under the hood", so to speak, and test it out to see if the blower is working. The seller woudn't put it in a clear plastic bag and say "this is in excellent condition!" and then say "no, you can't open the bag to inspect it for yourself." 

...and that's exactly what a buyer on eBay has the right to do: inspect the item in hand to make sure it is what the seller claims it is, which includes cracking that POS PGX slab and looking at the book.

I agree that anyone buying PGX slabs should do so with extreme caution...but...if we're talking about where responsibility lies, it always lies with the seller, the one making the proactive claim as to what the item is, and what general condition it is in (and remember...PICTURES are evidence of condition, too.)

[Bomber-Bob]

23 minutes ago, thunsicker said:

While I have seen minor restoration missed by CGC and/or grade differences between two submissions I don't know that I have ever seen a CGC comic where the page count was missed.  And while I realize the Guarantee in CGC is limited I have heard of instances where they made someone whole in situations where missed restoration was caught.  Maybe I'm fooling myself, but I feel much safer (both from a professionalism standpoint and from a chance that the company will stand behind their product) buying from CGC than PGX.

I totally agree with you. There is no comparison between CGC and PGX, I don't think anyone here is arguing that fact. But all the comments here are focusing on the fact that the book was PGX. I'm stating this 'could' happen' with other grading companies also. Let's focus on the bigger picture where the book, in a slab, was resubbed with unsatisfactory results. I'm very curious how this will turn out and I am afraid of laying blame on the seller. If the seller is at fault in this situation, is he at fault if a slabbed book is resubmitted and it comes back with a lower grade ? 

[Bomber-Bob]

4 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

Good point. 

Apparently PGX doesn't actually count the pages or look for restoration. For me, that's a huge difference. I've purchased many CGC books and I've never found one with missing pages or missed resto. 

And, in this case, two pages were missing. Any grader worth his salt should be able to detect the thickness/weight difference of this book even before counting the pages...

Lion, agreed, PGX is terrible but can you lay the blame on the seller here ? Honestly, if I were to sell a PGX graded book, I would probably just remove it from the slab and sell it raw. However, I just can't get behind the seller is at fault because he owned a PGX book and sold it. 

[entalmighty1]

Just now, Bomber-Bob said:

I totally agree with you. There is no comparison between CGC and PGX, I don't think anyone here is arguing that fact. But all the comments here are focusing on the fact that the book was PGX. I'm stating this 'could' happen' with other grading companies also. Let's focus on the bigger picture where the book, in a slab, was resubbed with unsatisfactory results. I'm very curious how this will turn out and I am afraid of laying blame on the seller. If the seller is at fault in this situation, is he at fault if a slabbed book is resubmitted and it comes back with a lower grade ? 

This is partially my question too Bob.

@RockMyAmadeus

When does it end?  At what point is it okay for the seller to get away with selling a product that comes back differently than advertised?

Your sticking point seems to be that the seller advertised an X-Men 1 in 4.5 condition.  If resubmitted, and it comes back 4.0, is that returnable?  If it comes back 6.5 does the buyer owe the seller extra money?

I don't have a dog in the hunt, as I willingly go into every PGX purchase fully expecting to be disappointed, and usually that's confirmed.  I just bought an early slabbed Planet in a PGX case that, after cracking and inspecting it, clearly had the staples replaced, but there was no mention of it on the label.  I just took it on the chin and moved on, because I don't feel like it's the seller's responsibility to verify the findings of a third party certifier.  

Buyer beware, especially if you're talking about a book like that.  The book sold for 20% under GPA, according to the buyer.  That's not a coincidence.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Bomber-Bob said:

I totally agree with you. There is no comparison between CGC and PGX, I don't think anyone here is arguing that fact. But all the comments here are focusing on the fact that the book was PGX. I'm stating this 'could' happen' with other grading companies also. Let's focus on the bigger picture where the book, in a slab, was resubbed with unsatisfactory results. I'm very curious how this will turn out and I am afraid of laying blame on the seller. If the seller is at fault in this situation, is he at fault if a slabbed book is resubmitted and it comes back with a lower grade ? 

No. The industry recognizes that grading is subjective, an opinion. Those who try to press claims for a book coming back a lower grade are going to lose, barring additional damage to the book at some point.

Pages missing? Restoration? That's not subject to opinion. Those things either exist or they do not. It's not subjective. 

"But what about the missed resto?" That resto was missed...it wasn't "well, it's not MUCH resto, so we'll pretend it's not there." (Golden Age exceptions noted and aside.)

"But...CGC has waffled in their resto opinion before!"

Yes, but that doesn't mean the resto wasn't (or was) actually there. The second someone applies a cutting implement to the edge of a comic who is NOT the printer, no matter how little they take off, no matter how difficult to detect, that book has been trimmed, and thus restored. The issue, then, is the reliable detection of resto, not whether or not it actually exists. 

Grading...how wear and tear and other flaws affect a book...is subject to opinion. Missing pages, resto....those things are black and white. They either exist or they don't. 

[mattn792]

6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

But the buyer has the ability to inspect the leaf blower for himself before buying the item. He can "look under the hood", so to speak, and test it out to see if the blower is working. The seller woudn't put it in a clear plastic bag and say "this is in excellent condition!" and then say "no, you can't open the bag to inspect it for yourself." 

...and that's exactly what a buyer on eBay has the right to do: inspect the item in hand to make sure it is what the seller claims it is, which includes cracking that POS PGX slab and looking at the book.

I agree that anyone buying PGX slabs should do so with extreme caution...but...if we're talking about where responsibility lies, it always lies with the seller, the one making the proactive claim as to what the item is, and what general condition it is in (and remember...PICTURES are evidence of condition, too.)

Unless the seller was an actual PGX rep, I have a hard time placing blame on the seller, largely because of the passage I highlighted.  Much like CGC makes VERY clear that cracking the slab voids the grade, I'm sure PGX isn't completely incompetent in that they don't have a similar caveat in their terms. 

Assuming that is true of PGX, the buyer bought a PGX certified book off of eBay.  Once anyone cracked it, be it the buyer, CGC, or anyone else, adios PGX grade.  Regardless of how worthless that grade was, the item as originally purchased has now been altered.  Unless the seller had direct knowledge of PGX's bogus grade to begin with, I don't see how the seller should be held liable.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, entalmighty1 said:

This is partially my question too Bob.

@RockMyAmadeus

When does it end?  At what point is it okay for the seller to get away with selling a product that comes back differently than advertised?

Your sticking point seems to be that the seller advertised an X-Men 1 in 4.5 condition.  If resubmitted, and it comes back 4.0, is that returnable?  If it comes back 6.5 does the buyer owe the seller extra money?

I don't have a dog in the hunt, as I willingly go into every PGX purchase fully expecting to be disappointed, and usually that's confirmed.  I just bought an early slabbed Planet in a PGX case that, after cracking and inspecting it, clearly had the staples replaced, but there was no mention of it on the label.  I just took it on the chin and moved on, because I don't feel like it's the seller's responsibility to verify the findings of a third party certifier.  

Buyer beware, especially if you're talking about a book like that.  The book sold for 20% under GPA, according to the buyer.  That's not a coincidence.

Re: grading, answered above. Some might say that was nice of you that you don't feel the seller is responsible for the items he/she is selling...but it opens you up to being taken advantage of, and PGX and their customers rely on this fact to do business. And if you don't hold these sellers responsible, then it will keep happening to others, because there's no reason for it not to.

So...in a sense...by not speaking up, you're enabling this practice to continue.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, mattn792 said:

Unless the seller was an actual PGX rep, I have a hard time placing blame on the seller, largely because of the passage I highlighted.  Much like CGC makes VERY clear that cracking the slab voids the grade, I'm sure PGX isn't completely incompetent in that they don't have a similar caveat in their terms. 

Assuming that is true of PGX, the buyer bought a PGX certified book off of eBay.  Once anyone cracked it, be it the buyer, CGC, or anyone else, adios PGX grade.  Regardless of how worthless that grade was, the item as originally purchased has now been altered.  Unless the seller had direct knowledge of PGX's bogus grade to begin with, I don't see how the seller should be held liable.

Sure, to which I responded that the item had to be taken out of its holder to be inspected. Even the drones at eBay understand that much. 

Everyone, in every transaction, has rights and obligations. A seller's obligation is to provide what was claimed, regardless of the opinion of any third party as to that item's condition. Despite what a lot of people believe, no one is selling a sealed case. That case, without the comic inside, has no value in and of itself. The comic inside is where all...not just most, ALL...the value resides. How do I prove that? Take the book out of the case, and see how much that case is now worth.

A buyer's obligation is to inspect the item and make sure it is what was offered. You can't do that inside the case.

I think, if these ever made their way to court, that they would be treated just like any other third party appraisal in any other business: useful, but hardly binding.