Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[comicquant]

15 hours ago, kav said:

Is there any way to hold PGX responsible for this?

Park in front of the owner's moms garage door...  You will have trapped all employees in the PGX headquarters.  Negotiate from there.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Action252Kid said:

An eBay customer service representative told me once that if I buy a raw book off of eBay then send it to say CGC and they detect undisclosed restoration, then by me sending the book away to CGC, undisclosed resto or not, I've lost my chance to return the book because for all eBay knows, the person I sent it to restored it (or it could've been damaged while out of my possession, etc.).  In this case, the book was sent away and on top of that, removed from the PGX holder, so unless the seller wants to make things right on his own, I just can't see eBay or PayPal ever siding with the OP.  I've had similar nightmares with PGX books too; one of those things you have to experience firsthand before you learn your lesson it seems.

That customer service representative...like most CS reps at eBay...didn't have any clue what they were talking about.

eBay has frequently required, for well over 15 years, independent appraisals of items and their condition in case of dispute.

I have done this many times; usually I would get a local shop to do it, and include their shop and contact information. CGC is industry recognized as a legitimate third-party grading service...AKA APPRAISER...and their opinion would be invaluable in this situation.

I'm sure you can see why what this rep told you is total and complete nonsense. "Having it appraised" is one of the cornerstone foundations of determining who is responsible in a "not as described" case.

Honestly...these morons who work for eBay...

Edited August 8, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, comicquant said:

Park in front of the owner's moms garage door...  You will have trapped all employees in the PGX headquarters.  Negotiate from there.

Ok, that was funny.

By the way...is THIS the item:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-MARVEL-X-MEN-1-1ST-APPEARANCE-MAGNETO-CYCLOPS-BEAST-PGX-4-5-CBCS-CGC-IT-/173375280518?hash=item285df8d586%3Ag%3ALG0AAOSw-UBbLFK9&_nkw=x+men+1+pgx+4.5&_sacat=0&_from=R40&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&nma=true&si=GseEzKa0y59iFEUrdbdG00hKrJw%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

If so, what happened to the $4300 price...?

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

How would I know as the seller you the buyer didn't remove the book from the holder, remove the missing pages yourself then try to send it back to me to get a refund?

If that were the case, then no buyer could ever hold any seller accountable for things like missing pages or hidden restoration. "How do I know you didn't do it yourself?" would always be the answer.

There's a legal principle here, but I don't know what it's called. Something about that, unless a buyer has other motive, there's no cause to assume that the buyer is necessarily acting in bad faith.

Document, document, document.

[comicquant]

7 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Ok, that was funny.

By the way...is THIS the item:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-MARVEL-X-MEN-1-1ST-APPEARANCE-MAGNETO-CYCLOPS-BEAST-PGX-4-5-CBCS-CGC-IT-/173375280518?hash=item285df8d586%3Ag%3ALG0AAOSw-UBbLFK9&_nkw=x+men+1+pgx+4.5&_sacat=0&_from=R40&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&nma=true&si=GseEzKa0y59iFEUrdbdG00hKrJw%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

If so, what happened to the $4300 price...?

I purchased a raw early issue Batman from this seller and discovered there was a 3" tear through several of the pages.  I contacted them and they were very apologetic and processed the return immediately.  From a service perspective it doesn't sound like the same seller but from a "being thorough" perspective it could be.

[mattn792]

9 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Ok, that was funny.

By the way...is THIS the item:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-MARVEL-X-MEN-1-1ST-APPEARANCE-MAGNETO-CYCLOPS-BEAST-PGX-4-5-CBCS-CGC-IT-/173375280518?hash=item285df8d586%3Ag%3ALG0AAOSw-UBbLFK9&_nkw=x+men+1+pgx+4.5&_sacat=0&_from=R40&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&nma=true&si=GseEzKa0y59iFEUrdbdG00hKrJw%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

If so, what happened to the $4300 price...?

Seller didn't do himself any favors with the listing...

Title excerpt -- "CBCS CGC IT!"

Description excerpt -- "MY GRADE IS JUST MY OPINION"

[1Cool]

9 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Ok, that was funny.

By the way...is THIS the item:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-MARVEL-X-MEN-1-1ST-APPEARANCE-MAGNETO-CYCLOPS-BEAST-PGX-4-5-CBCS-CGC-IT-/173375280518?hash=item285df8d586%3Ag%3ALG0AAOSw-UBbLFK9&_nkw=x+men+1+pgx+4.5&_sacat=0&_from=R40&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&nma=true&si=GseEzKa0y59iFEUrdbdG00hKrJw%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

If so, what happened to the $4300 price...?

A bidding war?  So a couple people were willing to risk that amount on a PGX copy.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, mattn792 said:

Title excerpt -- "CBCS CGC IT!"

Wouldn't that be HILARIOUS if the keyword spammers got taken to court and the judge says "well...you SAID to CGC it, and that's exacty what the buyer did! Judgment in favor of the plaintiff. Next!"

[Artboy99]

4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

If that were the case, then no buyer could ever hold any seller accountable for things like missing pages or hidden restoration. "How do I know you didn't do it yourself?" would always be the answer.

There's a legal principle here, but I don't know what it's called. Something about that, unless a buyer has other motive, there's no cause to assume that the buyer is necessarily acting in bad faith.

Document, document, document.

 

If I sell you a CGC slab that is a blue label, and you crack it open to discover it has a missing page, as a seller you expect I am liable? If you are not happy with what I sent you then please send it back, once you open the slab it is no longer what you were sent correct?

[Number 6]

My initial, gut reaction was the same as many here: the buyer purchased a PGX book and that’s exactly what he got...which, unfortunately, includes everything negative that’s associated with a PGX book. 

However, I think I can see RMA’s point if I put myself personally in the position of the seller. 

If I sold a PGX book and the buyer cracked it and discovered missing pages, undisclosed restoration, missing MVS, etc (not talking subjective grading) either himself or when he submitted it to another grading company, would I try and refuse that type of return because the holder has been opened?

What is my argument going to be? “I sent you a comic in a sealed PGX case so I need get the exact same thing back”. Why? So I can do what with it? I sure as heck don’t want it. So I can sell it to another unsuspecting buyer? 

Someone could make the argument ‘that’s what the buyer gets for buying a PGX book’. But that couldn’t the same argument be made about me as a seller? This is what I get as a seller for offering a PGX book for sale when I know FULL well what a lousy rep they have?

And considering how expensive this particular book is, what if the buyer calls my bluff? PGX grading isn’t that expensive, they missed the missing pages once, they’ll most likely miss it again. So the buyer says ‘fine, I’ll pay to get it re-graded by PGX, then you’ll accept the return’. Now what?

Am I going to try and make the argument that the serial numbers no longer match? Lol. And when I get the freshly graded book back now what do I do with it? Sell it again as a complete book when I know well and good it’s not?

I don’t think it’s so much an issue of “blaming” the seller. If I sold a raw book and missed something like a missing coupon or color touch, I would take it back without question. It sucks, I’d loose money, but I should have caught it in the first place. As a seller I have to take responsibility for what I sell to a certain degree.  (Again, contesting PGX’s grade would be another story)

Likewise, if the buyer is admonished to treat PGX like buying raw, shouldn’t the seller do the same, especially with a really expensive book like this?

Provided the buyer provides me with the kind of documentation that RMA is talking about to prove it’s the same book, I would accept the return. I wouldn’t pay for they’re grading fees if they sent it to another company for grading. I think that’s an area where they buyer as to accept some responsibility. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Artboy99 said:

 

If I sell you a CGC slab that is a blue label, and you crack it open to discover it has a missing page, as a seller you expect I am liable? If you are not happy with what I sent you then please send it back, once you open the slab it is no longer what you were sent correct?

The idea....that the item is a "package", and that package is "inviolate", on penalty of losing the right of recourse...is one that I do not believe would stand up to a rigorous legal challenge, in my layman's opinion.

So, yes, as a seller, I expect you are liable, because ultimately, CGC's appraisal is just an opinion, and they didn't own the book. Ultimately, that book had a missing page, and was only worth what a book with a missing page was worth...not the artificial value that that copy without a missing page was worth...and you were only really entitled to FMV for the item in its actual condition, not the erroneous condition assessed by the appraiser.

[Artboy99]

2 minutes ago, Number 6 said:

My initial, gut reaction was the same as many here: the buyer purchased a PGX book and that’s exactly what he got...which, unfortunately, includes everything negative that’s associated with a PGX book. 

However, I think I can see RMA’s point if I put myself personally in the position of the seller. 

If I sold a PGX book and the buyer cracked it and discovered missing pages, undisclosed restoration, missing MVS, etc (not talking subjective grading) either himself or when he submitted it to another grading company, would I try and refuse that type of return because the holder has been opened?

What is my argument going to be? “I sent you a comic in a sealed PGX case so I need get the exact same thing back”. Why? So I can do what with it? I sure as heck don’t want it. So I can sell it to another unsuspecting buyer? 

Someone could make the argument ‘that’s what the buyer gets for buying a PGX book’. But that couldn’t the same argument be made about me as a seller? This is what I get as a seller for offering a PGX book for sale when I know FULL well what a lousy rep they have?

And considering how expensive this particular book is, what if the buyer calls my bluff? PGX grading isn’t that expensive, they missed the missing pages once, they’ll most likely miss it again. So the buyer says ‘fine, I’ll pay to get it re-graded by PGX, then you’ll accept the return’. Now what?

Am I going to try and make the argument that the serial numbers no longer match? Lol. And when I get the freshly graded book back now what do I do with it? Sell it again as a complete book when I know well and good it’s not?

I don’t think it’s so much an issue of “blaming” the seller. If I sold a raw book and missed something like a missing coupon or color touch, I would take it back without question. It sucks, I’d loose money, but I should have caught it in the first place. As a seller I have to take responsibility for what I sell to a certain degree.  (Again, contesting PGX’s grade would be another story)

Likewise, if the buyer is admonished to treat PGX like buying raw, shouldn’t the seller do the same, especially with a really expensive book like this?

Provided the buyer provides me with the kind of documentation that RMA is talking about to prove it’s the same book, I would accept the return. I wouldn’t pay for they’re grading fees if they sent it to another company for grading. I think that’s an area where they buyer as to accept some responsibility. 

how can the seller be accountable for the contents of a sealed container?

It was sold as is: a 3rd party graded item and it was accepted as such by the buyer.

The buyer opened it, once that was done it can no longer be returned.

[Artboy99]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The idea....that the item is a "package", and that package is "inviolate", on penalty of losing the right of recourse...is one that I do not believe would stand up to a rigorous legal challenge, in my layman's opinion.

So, yes, as a seller, I expect you are liable, because ultimately, CGC's appraisal is just an opinion, and they didn't own the book. Ultimately, that book had a missing page, and was only worth what a book with a missing page was worth...not the artificial value that that copy without a missing page was worth...and you were only really entitled to FMV for the item in its actual condition, not the erroneous condition assessed by the appraiser.

it is a container created by a 3rd party grading service, and it was accepted as such by the buyer when they made the purchase. The seller is not liable for an opened slab.

[Number 6]

1 minute ago, Artboy99 said:

how can the seller be accountable for the contents of a sealed container?

It was sold as is: a 3rd party graded item and it was accepted as such by the buyer.

The buyer opened it, once that was done it can no longer be returned.

Again, what if the buyer offers to have it re-sealed in a container?

We’re not talking subjective grading; we’re talking something objectively wrong with the book. 

[Artboy99]

1 minute ago, Number 6 said:

Again, what if the buyer offers to have it re-sealed in a container?

We’re not talking subjective grading; we’re talking something objectively wrong with the book. 

when the slabs are opened the 3rd party grading is no longer valid. The buyer did not by a raw book where the seller put his reputation at stake. The seller sold a 3rd party graded item as is.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Also, I think it's important to recognize that CGC has taken it on the chin and been, in my opinion, rather gracious about this when they've made mistakes.

If I sub a book with a missing coupon, and CGC misses it....let's just say for the sake of argument everyone is acting in good faith, and just missed it...and I sell that book...and no one discovers that the book is missing a coupon for 15 years...is CGC responsible?

No, of course not. The one who was unjustly enriched...even if unknowingly!...was ME, the original submitter! *I* was the one who got more money than that book was actually worth at the time I sold it. Not on purpose...it happens.

And yet, CGC has TAKEN responsibility for these types of mistakes, and....despite BEARING no responsibility...has made buyers whole, or at least as whole as the buyers could accept.

That's something to be given credit for.

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

it is a container created by a 3rd party grading service, and it was accepted as such by the buyer when they made the purchase. The seller is not liable for an opened slab.

Disagree, for the reasons stated above. Any judge is going to look at that and say "open the container, dummy", especially given the reality of situations like this. The container is irrelevant, and has no value by itself. The book is where all the value resides. 

My question for you is: why wouldn't you, as a seller, stand behind what you're selling....?

[Pizzafist]

SUCKS. Payapl/Ebay should take care of you I'd expect. I think they started the company to grade their own books.

I messed with PGX briefly years ago since I live in the area.That said....

I Only use CGC. I mean even CGC makes errors here and there,But at least they're honest errors as far as i can tell.

[Number 6]

Edited August 8, 2018 by Number 6

[Mystafo]

The graded comic holder is in essence "Schrodinger's box" as until its opened and it's contents observed the actual state of the contents is governed by probability?