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Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX
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408 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Westy Steve said:

So did the seller advertise that the book was missing pages?  If not, it's an implied "not as described", or if there is such a thing, "defects not disclosed".  This seems open and shut to me.

If I buy a radio and it arrives missing pieces, I can return it on ebay....unless its advertised that way.  Even if the seller didn't know it was missing pieces.

this is nothing like you describe. What this is:

you buy a radio from a seller who is selling a vintage radio graded by XYZ Radiocorp as a 4.5. XYZ puts the graded radio into a sealed plastic case and certify that they believe the radio is a 4.5. You buy the radio from the seller because you also agree with XYZ's certification. The seller has never stated they have graded the radio and therefore they don't have to stand behind what they have sold: you bought it because someone else said it is a 4.5

You are correct that this is very open and shut. The seller is not at fault at all.

Edited by Artboy99
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11 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

this is nothing like you describe. What this is:

you buy a radio from a seller who is selling a vintage radio graded by XYZ Radiocorp as a 4.5. XYZ puts the graded radio into a sealed plastic case and certify that they believe the radio is a 4.5. You buy the radio from the seller because you also agree with XYZ's certification. The seller has never stated they have graded the radio and therefore they don't have to stand behind what they have sold: you bought it because someone else said it is a 4.5

Here's the thing. And this is especially true if you're hobby savvy, maybe having bought PGX before, or are a CGC message board reader or member. You buy PGX and you know you're literally buying a pig in a poke. Anything can be between the covers. Now, while there are those that will play Devil's advocate and mention, "Nobody is perfect, all the grading services are subject to instances of human error" and this is altogether true, the chances of human error are historically demonstrably less reported by a wide margin with the CGC grading vs. PGXs. There's a huge difference. With CGC graded books you have every reason to feel secure that what can't be seen since slabbed is proper. This is simply not true with PGX because it's been demonstrated over and over and over again. With PGX, you're rolling the dice that the resto call as well as the contents will be as represented by the label and anyone buying PGX with a modicum of hobby knowledge knows this.

Edited by James J Johnson
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42 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

this is nothing like you describe. What this is:

you buy a radio from a seller who is selling a vintage radio graded by XYZ Radiocorp as a 4.5. XYZ puts the graded radio into a sealed plastic case and certify that they believe the radio is a 4.5. You buy the radio from the seller because you also agree with XYZ's certification. The seller has never stated they have graded the radio and therefore they don't have to stand behind what they have sold: you bought it because someone else said it is a 4.5

You are correct that this is very open and shut. The seller is not at fault at all.

The problem I have with that, is the book was graded on 6/18 and was listed on ebay on 6/22. Probably the day it was received in the mail. This is not a case of a book that was sent into PGX by an unnamed individual and then passed on to a different seller. This is a case where someone sent the book in to PGX and immediately listed it on ebay when they got it back. Looking into his sold auctions his first 2 PGX sells (also graded on 6/18)  are a Restored Cap #4 and a Tales of Suspense 39 with 2 pages cut out. Also had a Cap #100 graded on 6/18 that was sold twice already. While the buyer is probably out of luck in this case, it certainly looks bad on this particular seller.

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15 minutes ago, boomtown said:

The problem I have with that, is the book was graded on 6/18 and was listed on ebay on 6/22. Probably the day it was received in the mail. This is not a case of a book that was sent into PGX by an unnamed individual and then passed on to a different seller. This is a case where someone sent the book in to PGX and immediately listed it on ebay when they got it back. Looking into his sold auctions his first 2 PGX sells (also graded on 6/18)  are a Restored Cap #4 and a Tales of Suspense 39 with 2 pages cut out. Also had a Cap #100 graded on 6/18 that was sold twice already. While the buyer is probably out of luck in this case, it certainly looks bad on this particular seller.

The length of time the owner has the book to the time they list it for sale is irrelevant.

The seller's practice of dealing with PGX puts him on my never do business with list. I do not support PGX, nor do I support sellers that use the PGX "service".

As to the OP situation: He bought a PGX book. Upon opening the slab he didn't page count, and sent it to CGC for grading. He can't expect the seller to refund him and the lesson learned here is to not purchase PGX graded books, not deal with sellers who deal in PGX books and do more research before making such an expensive purchase.

Edited by Artboy99
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10 minutes ago, boomtown said:

The problem I have with that, is the book was graded on 6/18 and was listed on ebay on 6/22. Probably the day it was received in the mail. This is not a case of a book that was sent into PGX by an unnamed individual and then passed on to a different seller. This is a case where someone sent the book in to PGX and immediately listed it on ebay when they got it back. Looking into his sold auctions his first 2 PGX sells (also graded on 6/18)  are a Restored Cap #4 and a Tales of Suspense 39 with 2 pages cut out. Also had a Cap #100 graded on 6/18 that was sold twice already. While the buyer is probably out of luck in this case, it certainly looks bad on this particular seller.

Regardless of how it reflects the seller, what the seller has done is to offer a PGX graded book. All of us here know exactly what PGX grading means. Absolutely nothing. PGX slab contents are a crapshoot, a game of chance. A buyer should understand that this is risky and that if Pandora's PGX slab is opened and X-submitted, demons may be lurking inside. Resubbing PGX slabbed material to CGC is like walking into a casino and betting everything on double 0, a gamble, risky and if you lose, the house doesn't give you back your losing bet.

Of course Paypal will give the buyer back his money on a claim, but that doesn't make the buyer right on this case, either he's at fault for buying PGX, having done no due diligence, or the seller is at fault for not putting a disclaimer, a warning about PGX grading being no better than buying a raw book. Either way, the primary flaw lies with PGX and not buyer or seller.

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On 8/7/2018 at 7:58 PM, jcruzcollection said:

Got a rude awakening this morning. 

Last month, I purchased a PGX graded copy of X-men #1 (the eBayer even said in his description to get it CGC'd). Well...I then submitted it to CGC at SDCC since I prefer their cases. I didn't expect the grading (originally a 4.5) to come back the same, given the subjectiveness of grading. 

HOWEVER, the absolutely worst thing happened. CGC found that two pages were missing from the book and gave it the green "qualified" label (see photo). The book is still on its way back to me and will arrive Monday of next week. I don't know what to do. This is so disappointing. I'm planning to try and get a refund from eBay since I paid a premium ($4,300) for a complete book, not something that was missing pages. 

I remember reading threads not long ago about how some stores intentionally work with PGX to hide some of these flaws. I really hope this isn't the case. 

I thought this was just a helpful story for collectors. 

Screen Shot 2018-08-07 at 9.42.55 AM.png

You'll want to open up a PayPal dispute immediately.  Of course, the seller is probably going to claim the book has been tampered with since he sold it to you.  He'll argue that it's no longer in the PGX holder, so it's not the same book.  If the seller were honest and reputable, not saying he's not, he'd take the high road and refund you your money then he would be the one to go after PGX and whoever sold it to him.

Cases like this are why you use PayPal.  If PayPal doesn't intervene, then you have no choice but to contact your credit card issuer.  PayPal can and will side with the credit card issuer.  What I mean by this is if PayPal denies your claim then you file a dispute with your bank, and they approve the claim, PayPal by law and their underwriting would have to reverse the dispute to your favor.

I know you are probably pretty pissed, and rightfully so, but the good news is you put this on a credit card and paid through PayPal so as long as you are inside their window for filing a dispute, you will be ok.

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5 hours ago, Red84 said:

It's true that the manufacturer seal on the pack of cards has a different kind of value than the seal on the comic holder; but both seals do hold value.

Well, I guess if you want to keep arguing this point, I hope none of the "argument police" come and harass me for responding, but again...the CGC seal has NO VALUE.

The value you believe it has is perception, true, but that perception is based on a CONCEPT...the IDEA...not that specific piece of sonically welded plastic. Again, this is easily demonstrated by the fact that you can take a book out of "the seal"...and that seal will have no value....and then put that book back in a NEW seal...and, assuming nothing else changes, that new slab will have all the value of the old slab, and the old, empty slab will have none. And you can repeat this process to infinity, because the value is in the book...not the slab. 

Your comparison to pre-packaged sports cards is erroneous, because those cards AND the package it comes from are made by the manufacturer...that's how they come. Moreover, the cards are 1. random, and 2. secret. The value of that sealed pack is in the chance that it might contain "the valuable one(s)." With slabs, you know exactly what it is you're buying. No secret, no randomness. Comic books don't come from the publisher pre-packaged in slabs, randomly inserted, without the buyer knowing what they're getting...although wouldn't that be a trip...?

"But...apparently you DON'T know what you're getting!" someone might snarkily reply. And that's not true. The system is designed so that you know precisely what you're getting, and it is exceptionally rare that CGC makes a mistake that makes that not the case. That's also the way PGX operates...in theory....although it's fairly common to get a book graded by them with a "surprise!" inside.

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47 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

The length of time the owner has the book to the time they list it for sale is irrelevant.

The seller's practice of dealing with PGX puts him on my never do business with list. I do not support PGX, nor do I support sellers that use the PGX "service".

As to the OP situation: He bought a PGX book. Upon opening the slab he didn't page count, and sent it to CGC for grading. He can't expect the seller to refund him and the lesson learned here is to not purchase PGX graded books, not deal with sellers who deal in PGX books and do more research before making such an expensive purchase.

I'm pretty sure the lesson is NOT "too bad you bought a PGX book...shoulda known better. Better luck next time!"

I'm pretty sure the lesson here is that a seller doesn't get to unjustly benefit from the mistake, or "mistake", of a grading company, whether known or unknown, and get the "complete copy" price for a book that is missing two pages. If the buyer can prove that the book is the same book, the seller should absolutely take the book back and refund the buyer.

I don't even understand why this is controversial. Regardless of the utter incompetence of PGX, that book was still missing two pages. It was missing two pages BEFORE it was graded, it was missing two pages WHILE it was graded, and it was missing two pages AFTER it was graded...unless you want to get REALLY tinfoily (I don't) and suggest that PGX tore those two pages out. The incompetence of PGX doesn't change that fact. That book was NEVER worth the price the seller got for it (again, working on the assumption that the buyer has accurately stated their case.)

"Third party graded, not my problem!" - (shrug)

 

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2 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

this is nothing like you describe. What this is:

you buy a radio from a seller who is selling a vintage radio graded by XYZ Radiocorp as a 4.5. XYZ puts the graded radio into a sealed plastic case and certify that they believe the radio is a 4.5. You buy the radio from the seller because you also agree with XYZ's certification. The seller has never stated they have graded the radio and therefore they don't have to stand behind what they have sold: you bought it because someone else said it is a 4.5

You are correct that this is very open and shut. The seller is not at fault at all.

Sorry, but a professional appraisal is not a magic wand, absolving the seller from all responsibility. It's just a professional....or, in this case, "professional"...appraisal. 

The seller may not be at fault, but the seller IS entirely responsible, having received unjust enrichment.

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1 hour ago, boomtown said:

The problem I have with that, is the book was graded on 6/18 and was listed on ebay on 6/22. Probably the day it was received in the mail. This is not a case of a book that was sent into PGX by an unnamed individual and then passed on to a different seller. This is a case where someone sent the book in to PGX and immediately listed it on ebay when they got it back. Looking into his sold auctions his first 2 PGX sells (also graded on 6/18)  are a Restored Cap #4 and a Tales of Suspense 39 with 2 pages cut out. Also had a Cap #100 graded on 6/18 that was sold twice already. While the buyer is probably out of luck in this case, it certainly looks bad on this particular seller.

06/18 is a month/year reference. :baiting:

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I sold a sealed NOS Coleman lantern from 1965 on eBay, a true collectors trophy piece to those that collect lanterns. The auction ended and I packed and shipped it off. A few weeks go by and I see the buyer opened up a case for “not as described”. Again it was a sealed never opened box, sealed by Coleman back in 1965. The buyer opened the sealed box, switched the lantern dome out and returned it to me. I argued tooth and nail to eBay that because the buyer opened the box, the value of my item coming back to me was now much less than how I sold it. eBay felt the buyers case was strong enough for the return. I even asked if it was ok if I purchased a vintage sealed pack of baseball cards, opened them and if I didn’t get any good cards could I just simply return the opened pack? I’ve always said that eBay is the devils playground. 

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8 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm pretty sure the lesson is NOT "too bad you bought a PGX book...shoulda known better. Better luck next time!"

I'm pretty sure the lesson here is that a seller doesn't get to unjustly benefit from the mistake, or "mistake", of a grading company, whether known or unknown, and get the "complete copy" price for a book that is missing two pages. If the buyer can prove that the book is the same book, the seller should absolutely take the book back and refund the buyer.

I don't even understand why this is controversial. Regardless of the utter incompetence of PGX, that book was still missing two pages. It was missing two pages BEFORE it was graded, it was missing two pages WHILE it was graded, and it was missing two pages AFTER it was graded...unless you want to get REALLY tinfoily (I don't) and suggest that PGX tore those two pages out. The incompetence of PGX doesn't change that fact. That book was NEVER worth the price the seller got for it (again, working on the assumption that the buyer has accurately stated their case.)

"Third party graded, not my problem!" - (shrug)

 

The seller has no idea that the graded book has these issues. How can they know?

The buyer chose to buy a graded book to provide themselves the peace of mind knowing they dont have to rely on the seller's unknown grading capabilities. It is why we buy graded books.

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23 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm pretty sure the lesson is NOT "too bad you bought a PGX book...shoulda known better. Better luck next time!"

I'm pretty sure the lesson here is that a seller doesn't get to unjustly benefit from the mistake, or "mistake", of a grading company, whether known or unknown, and get the "complete copy" price for a book that is missing two pages. If the buyer can prove that the book is the same book, the seller should absolutely take the book back and refund the buyer.

I don't even understand why this is controversial. Regardless of the utter incompetence of PGX, that book was still missing two pages. It was missing two pages BEFORE it was graded, it was missing two pages WHILE it was graded, and it was missing two pages AFTER it was graded...unless you want to get REALLY tinfoily (I don't) and suggest that PGX tore those two pages out. The incompetence of PGX doesn't change that fact. That book was NEVER worth the price the seller got for it (again, working on the assumption that the buyer has accurately stated their case.)

"Third party graded, not my problem!" - (shrug)

 

The listing does not claim the book is complete. If it did you might have an argument. It is advertised as a PGX 4.5 and that's what he received. 

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4 hours ago, mycomicshop said:

Agreed. That's happened to us before--some buyers want access to the potential upside of cracking a slab open to do something with it, but if it doesn't turn out like they hoped, then they want to put it back on the seller even though the seller never graded the book or had access to the comic other than as an already slabbed item.

One of the main purposes of third party grading is to remove disagreement over grading from transactions--buyer and seller can both easily determine that the item received by the buyer matches what was described by the seller. Doesn't matter whether the company is PGX or CGC, or if you're talking about a big flaw or a small difference in grade upon resubmission. When you buy a slabbed book you are buying the label and the plastic--the comic inside is along for the ride. The seller offers a slab graded X by company Y, and that's what you receive, a slab graded X by company Y. With a slabbed comic the ability to assess and vouch for the condition of the comic is delegated from the seller of the comic to the company that slabbed the comic, and the degree to which the buyer trusts the grade is up to the buyer's confidence in the quality of the service provided by the grading company.

There's a transactional checkpoint when the buyer receives the book and confirms it matches what the seller offered (slab graded X by company Y), and the slab is legit and not tampered with. At that point the seller has met their obligation to deliver what they represented in the listing. The buyer is then welcome to treat their newly acquired property however they see fit. If the buyer wants to open up the slab and take issue with the comic inside, by all means do so, but it should be buyer beware from that point on to accept whatever risks or rewards come from doing so. They're voiding the grading opinion provided by the slab (as valuable or worthless as that might be depending on the grading company), and the item can no longer be returned to the seller in the same state in which it was offered and sold.

Sorry, but the point of third party grading is to remove disagreement over GRADING, as you state....NOT MISTAKES. You're characterizing a book with two missing pages as "not turning out like they hoped"...? lol Well there's the understatement of the century! 

And, I know this is a popular misconception, but it's still a misconception: opening the case does not "void" the grading opinion. It only means that CGC (the others are worthless) considers it no longer "valid" (whatever that means to them.) But what is it that CGC guarantees...? Pretty much nothing. They guarantee that the book is genuine, and has been examined by "two professionals." That's it. In fact, the language that used to be on the labels says "The CGC holder must be completely intact with unbroken corner posts in order to be considered an authentic certified CGC book." 

Notice what's missing there...?

There's no language about the validity of the grade.

In other words, the idea that opening a case invalidates the grade is a matter of industry common practice...NOT official CGC policy. The implication is there, sure...but it's not overtly stated on purpose.

If I crack a 9.6 book out of a CGC slab, it doesn't cease to be in the condition that was evaluated as "9.6" in the first place (barring, of course, additional damage. Gotta be diligent with your caveats around here!)

Are you really suggesting that if someone bought a CGC book from Lonestar, and on the INCREDIBLY RARE chance that book had a coupon cut, or a page missing, that was missed, and the book had instead received a blue or yellow (or even purple!) label, that you, Lonestar, wouldn't take a return upon discovery, even though you received more than you otherwise should have on the sale, not CGC...? You would make it CGC's problem...? If you sold a $25,000 book that had a missing page that ended up being worth only $5,000, and you made that extra $20,000...unknown to everyone at the time, in good faith, admittedly!...you would just keep that extra $20,000, even though you didn't rightfully earn it, and make CGC eat it instead...?

Yikes. :eek:

We should all be incredibly thankful, then, that CGC has been as diligent as it is, and mistakes like this are so incredibly rare (with them), because it looks like the majority of sellers will not stand behind their books, even if they are the ones who benefit from the mistake that CGC made.

Crack open those PGX slabs, folks, and document everything. 

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2 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

The simple pre-emptive solution to eliminate potential scenarios like this one.

Absolutely, stay clear away from PGX.  Their history of fraud, deceit, and shadiness has filled many pages of this forum.  Any part-time lawyers out there feel the OP has basis to file suit against Daniel/PGX for negligence (missed page count) and misrepresentation (unrestored label) if all other avenues fail him?

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4 minutes ago, rsouxlja7 said:

The listing does not claim the book is complete. If it did you might have an argument. It is advertised as a PGX 4.5 and that's what he received. 

It doesn't need to. It's implied in the title. Gotta read the whole thread. And no, that book was NOT a "PGX 4.5" as it stood. Had someone said "hey, PGX...this is missing two pages, please grade it properly"...then it wouldn't be in a "PGX 4.5" slab...unless they're REALLY corrupt (which I wouldn't put past Dan.)

Edited by RockMyAmadeus
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18 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

The seller has no idea that the graded book has these issues. How can they know?

They can't, until it's discovered, naturally. However..."ignorance of the law is no excuse." Not knowing about the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, and doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed when it becomes known.

20 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

The buyer chose to buy a graded book to provide themselves the peace of mind knowing they dont have to rely on the seller's unknown grading capabilities. It is why we buy graded books.

No dispute from me there in the slightest.

But buying a graded book is not a magic wand that absolves all sellers from responsibility for the items they sell. 

Whether the seller knew it or not, that book still had two missing pages. Once they found out...that is when they must act.

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24 minutes ago, Junkdrawer said:

I sold a sealed NOS Coleman lantern from 1965 on eBay, a true collectors trophy piece to those that collect lanterns. The auction ended and I packed and shipped it off. A few weeks go by and I see the buyer opened up a case for “not as described”. Again it was a sealed never opened box, sealed by Coleman back in 1965. The buyer opened the sealed box, switched the lantern dome out and returned it to me. I argued tooth and nail to eBay that because the buyer opened the box, the value of my item coming back to me was now much less than how I sold it. eBay felt the buyers case was strong enough for the return. I even asked if it was ok if I purchased a vintage sealed pack of baseball cards, opened them and if I didn’t get any good cards could I just simply return the opened pack? I’ve always said that eBay is the devils playground. 

And that is entirely wrong, and never should have happened. 

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11 minutes ago, HENRYSPENCER said:

You'll want to open up a PayPal dispute immediately.  Of course, the seller is probably going to claim the book has been tampered with since he sold it to you.  He'll argue that it's no longer in the PGX holder, so it's not the same book.  If the seller were honest and reputable, not saying he's not, he'd take the high road and refund you your money then he would be the one to go after PGX and whoever sold it to him.

Cases like this are why you use PayPal.  If PayPal doesn't intervene, then you have no choice but to contact your credit card issuer.  PayPal can and will side with the credit card issuer.  What I mean by this is if PayPal denies your claim then you file a dispute with your bank, and they approve the claim, PayPal by law and their underwriting would have to reverse the dispute to your favor.

I know you are probably pretty pissed, and rightfully so, but the good news is you put this on a credit card and paid through PayPal so as long as you are inside their window for filing a dispute, you will be ok.

I agree that if the seller is honest and reputable he should take the book back and issue a refund, my main criteria is because the seller subbed the book....at least for me. (shrug)

But at some point the buyer has to behave honourably when it comes to not attempting to force a refund when he's clearly taking a calculated risk using his knowledge of the market value associated with 3rd party companies' reputations and the reliability-gap of their services.   

Just because e-commerce rules let people on both work the system to their benefit, at some point people need to be accountable for their purchasing decisions including any risks that they willingly assume when buying online.

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