Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[wombat]

Buyer took a shot and lost. Personally once he sent it out to CGC he lost all claim from the seller. A question this brings to mind is what is to prevent someone with a copy of a book missing pages from buying a slabbed copy, cracking it out and then replacing it with your damaged copy and asking for a refund?

[RockMyAmadeus]

And for those of you advocating that "he bought a slab, he got exactly what he paid for"...well, no, you see, he didn't. 

He did not get a "PGX 4.5 X-Men #1", despite what the label claimed.

Because PGX...unless they're totally, absolutely corrupt...wouldn't have knowingly put that book...missing two pages mind you...in that slab.

You're not buying a label.

You're buying a BOOK.

So, the label DID NOT MATCH the book inside, and therefore, the buyer DID NOT GET what was advertised.

Grading is subjective. Missing pages is not.

(If it can be proven that PGX knowingly did this, then they're complicit in fraud, and should be sued to the hilt. But that's a side point.)

Frankly, I'm utterly astonished that people are openly advocating "well, that's the risk you take, you rolled the dice and you lost!" with regards to missing pages. 

Since when is missing pages or missed resto a "too bad, you took a gamble, you knew the risk!" issue, regardless of who misses it...?

That's not a "gamble"...taking a gamble means you have a CHANCE to WIN, too, no matter how small. Since when has unknown missing pages been an opportunity to "win", for ANYONE...?

Edited August 9, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 minutes ago, wombat said:

Buyer took a shot and lost. Personally once he sent it out to CGC he lost all claim from the seller. A question this brings to mind is what is to prevent someone with a copy of a book missing pages from buying a slabbed copy, cracking it out and then replacing it with your damaged copy and asking for a refund?

Some can argue (and have argued, and eBay has taken this position) that the buyer was merely sending it to another appraiser to confirm what the seller sent him. In that case, he was following eBay policy perfectly.

The answer to "switched copies" is documentation. Pretty straightforward. 

Since printing comics as a process didn't get perfected enough to create identical copies until the 90s, it's relatively easy to tell one copy from another.

Morever, wear patterns serve as markers. 

[James J Johnson]

49 minutes ago, mosconi said:

Absolutely, stay clear away from PGX.  Their history of fraud, deceit, and shadiness has filled many pages of this forum.  Any part-time lawyers out there feel the OP has basis to file suit against Daniel/PGX for negligence (missed page count) and misrepresentation (unrestored label) if all other avenues fail him?

.Can't hold them legally culpable. The language used exonerates the person who graded/encapsulated it/owns the company. The grading process is not a guarantee of any kind. The only guarantees made is that they are encapsulating and even the CGC label contains language that makes clear that a best faith effort has been made to render a responsible opinion.

Now that said, I've read about occasions where CGC has assumed responsibility for an error and remedied it! But they are under no legal obligation to do so.

There's another wrinkle in the return of this PGX comic on a claim. Returns are supposed to be effected so that the buyer returns the item that was sent to him! The buyer here bought a PGX slabbed comic. Since it was broken open and cross-submitted, the buyer will not be able to live up to his end of the return agreement and return it as purchased. Technically, how this effects his claim will remain to be seen.

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Sorry, but a professional appraisal is not a magic wand, absolving the seller from all responsibility. It's just a professional....or, in this case, "professional"...appraisal. 

The seller may not be at fault, but the seller IS entirely responsible, having received unjust enrichment.

RMA, I'm not saying this statement doesn't have some merit, but there's just no way the community will accept it. The current 'norm' is no returns on 3rd party graded, let alone opened 3rd party graded. If accepted, sellers would be vulnerable to all sorts of shenanigans. As was previously mentioned, the transactional chain has to end at some point. It would put the big auction houses out of business. They have to pay their consignors and cannot be accepting returns months after the fact. I do hope the OP lets us know the outcome. It could change our world as we know it. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Bomber-Bob said:

RMA, I'm not saying this statement doesn't have some merit, but there's just no way the community will accept it. The current 'norm' is no returns on 3rd party graded, let alone opened 3rd party graded. If accepted, sellers would be vulnerable to all sorts of shenanigans. As was previously mentioned, the transactional chain has to end at some point. It would put the big auction houses out of business. They have to pay their consignors and cannot be accepting returns months after the fact. I do hope the OP lets us know the outcome. It could change our world as we know it. 

Just because something is done a certain way for a long time doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. You say sellers would be vulnerable to all sorts of shenanigans. I disagree completely. It's why you document, document, document. Incomplete documentation? No go. The "transactional chain" ends with the person who was unjustly enriched by selling an item with an undisclosed (and probably unknown) problem. Whether people are willing to follow that chain is up to them, and as I said to Storms, it might not be the wisest option, but it is the correct one.

As for the rest, I disagree completely. There's no valid reason why it would "put the big auction houses out of business." Why would it? CGC isn't going to collapse. We're talking about a situation that is EXCESSIVELY RARE, as it relates to CGC. There's not going to be a mass rejection of slabs. That's hyperbole. And the EXTREMELY RARE times it does happen, they should be prepared for and accommodate. 

On the very, very rare chance that such a thing is discovered with a CGC slab, provided it's documented, there's no reason why the seller can't make it right. After all...they got more money than they should have, even if they were totally unaware of it. Even if they didn't know it, that problem still existed. I'll ask the question again: if I, or anyone, sell a $25,000 copy of a comic that turns out to have a missing centerfold, and therefore only worth $5,000 (or whatever amount), what moral, ethical, and/or legal argument would hold them responsible for that difference in value, when they neither sold the book themselves, nor received any of that sale price?

What judge on earth would hold them accountable for anything beyond their grading fee?

And it's why PGX slabs should all be cracked open upon purchase.

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, rsouxlja7 said:

The listing does not claim the book is complete. If it did you might have an argument. It is advertised as a PGX 4.5 and that's what he received. 

This. Right here. Ipso facto, the same PGX graded comic is what must be returned as it was sent out and received. Sadly, the buyer is unable to comply with the primary condition of return, "the item must be returned as received", as what he bought, no longer exists in the same form as purchased. The buyer has materially altered it. It's no longer encapsulated and the cert is now invalid. This is the overriding rule in the ebay guidelines governing returns for refunds; return items as received. This would be the same as a buyer taking an ebay purchase to a convention and having 20 signatures added to a book, submitting the book, only to find out, no Marvel value stamp. The tiem has been altered, and cannot be returned to the seller as received, thereby voiding the right to return.

Of course, none of this will matter to Paypal or the cc company, and it's one reason that makes ebay a perilous place for sellers. Which is why when I have something to sell, it gets shipped off to Heritage, Connect, or Link. Let them deal with the fallout from cookies crumbling. I'll glad pay my 10 to 20% to avoid nightmares for sellers like this one, you pay a healthy fee on ebay as it is and don't get any protection as a seller. With the major comic auction houses, you're paid and they handle any hassle if forthcoming. They deserve their fees for that.

[RockMyAmadeus]

19 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

This. Right here. Ipso facto, the same PGX graded comic is what must be returned as it was sent out and received. Sadly, the buyer is unable to comply with the primary condition of return, "the item must be returned as received", as what he bought, no longer exists in the same form as purchased

The SELLER never sent what was described....a complete copy of X-Men #1...so ipso facto, the buyer can't return it, either. When you sell a comic, it is IMPLIED that it is complete, unless otherwise stated.

This is, again, the fallacy of treating a slab as an inviolate package. It's not. It's just a fancy appraisal; nothing more.

Quote

This would be the same as a buyer taking an ebay purchase to a convention and having 20 signatures added to a book, submitting the book, only to find out, no Marvel value stamp. The tiem has been altered, and cannot be returned to the seller as received, thereby voiding the right to return.

No. 

Removing a book from a slab doesn't change the book in the slightest (barring damage. Gotta make with the caveats around here!)

Edited August 9, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[mycomicshop]

1 hour ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Are you really suggesting that if someone bought a CGC book from Lonestar, and on the INCREDIBLY RARE chance that book had a coupon cut, or a page missing, that was missed, and the book had instead received a blue or yellow (or even purple!) label, that you, Lonestar, wouldn't take a return upon discovery, even though you received more than you otherwise should have on the sale, not CGC...? You would make it CGC's problem...? If you sold a $25,000 book that had a missing page that ended up being worth only $5,000, and you made that extra $20,000...unknown to everyone at the time, in good faith, admittedly!...you would just keep that extra $20,000, even though you didn't rightfully earn it, and make CGC eat it instead...?

Yikes.

 

My point was that in most cases buyers should accept responsibility for what they find inside a slab once they choose to open it. I'm expressing my personal opinion as a buyer and seller in this hobby, not making some official pronouncement of company policy, but thanks for the "yikes." There are plenty of cases where even though I don't think we the seller would be specifically at fault, I think it's reasonable for us to take care of the buyer anyway and would do so, and have done so in the past. There are other cases where I think its reasonable to expect the buyer to take some responsibility.

Take your hypothetical example, and add the further wrinkle that the CGC item that sold for $25,000 was a consignment. So in this example at some point in the past CGC misgraded a book such that the actual book in the slab is worth significantly less than indicated by CGC's label due to a missing page or cut coupon. We receive the book from the consignor. We've never touched or had access to the book inside the slab. Even our consignor never had access to it, it was already slabbed when they got it. Whoever originally slabbed the book is somewhere back multiple transactions and multiple years ago.

We sell the book for $25,000. Of that sale we pay the consignor $23,500 and make a commission of $1,500. Three months later the buyer reports they cracked open the slab and discovered whatever flaw CGC originally missed and as you say is only worth $5000. We earned $1,500 on the sale and now the buyer wants a $20,000 refund. Good luck getting money back from the consignor. What do you do? I'm not saying there's an easy answer nor am I saying what we would do if this actually happened, but the seller would not be my first stop in terms of who rightfully bears the most responsibility for the error and resulting difference in value. If the seller truly is the responsible party, it really erodes the value of third party grading and we'd be better off only selling raw books where we can grade and vouch for the book ourselves.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, mycomicshop said:

My point was that in most cases buyers should accept responsibility for what they find inside a slab once they choose to open it. I'm expressing my personal opinion as a buyer and seller in this hobby, not making some official pronouncement of company policy, but thanks for the "yikes." There are plenty of cases where even though I don't think we the seller would be specifically at fault, I think it's reasonable for us to take care of the buyer anyway and would do so, and have done so in the past. There are other cases where I think its reasonable to expect the buyer to take some responsibility.

This isn't a "I disagree with the grade" situation. If that were the case, you'd be perfectly correct. 

2 minutes ago, mycomicshop said:

Take your hypothetical example, and add the further wrinkle that the CGC item that sold for $25,000 was a consignment. So in this example at some point in the past CGC misgraded a book such that the actual book in the slab is worth significantly less than indicated by CGC's label due to a missing page or cut coupon. We receive the book from the consignor. We've never touched or had access to the book inside the slab. Even our consignor never had access to it, it was already slabbed when they got it. Whoever originally slabbed the book is somewhere back multiple transactions and multiple years ago.

We sell the book for $25,000. Of that sale we pay the consignor $23,500 and make a commission of $1,500. Three months later the buyer reports they cracked open the slab and discovered whatever flaw CGC originally missed and as you say is only worth $5000. We earned $1,500 on the sale and now the buyer wants a $20,000 refund. Good luck getting money back from the consignor. What do you do? I'm not saying there's an easy answer nor am I saying what we would do if this actually happened, but the seller would not be my first stop in terms of who rightfully bears the most responsibility for the error and resulting difference in value. If the seller truly is the responsible party, it really erodes the value of third party grading and we'd be better off only selling raw books where we can grade and vouch for the book oursel

Except, morally, and perhaps legally, the seller IS truly the responsible party, even if that transaction happened years and years ago.

That sellers should have a policy to fix the situation shouldn't even be a question; but you're mistaken if you think such a policy means that "sellers would be better off only selling raw books." This issue exists whether sellers take responsibility or not. Thankfully, however, at least where CGC is concerned, it happens so rarely that it's not going to topple the whole slab industry were sellers to take responsibility for the items they sell on the very, very rare chance that CGC misses something like this. Whether you touched the book in the slab or not is irrelevant; when you accept it, you assume some measure....whatever that measure is, as teeny tiny as it is...of the risk that CGC made a mistake, and that you, as the buyer, or consignee, have "right of recourse" with YOUR seller/consignor. The seller....you...is not only the first stop for the buyer...it's the only stop for them.

Of course, none of this happens without document, document, document, and I would not bother for a SECOND with any sort of partial refund scenario as you describe.

As far as the accounting goes....this isn't rocket science we're talking about, here. Just follow the paper trail if it comes up. You already have an extensive database. "Good luck getting money back from the consignor"? That's when you OUT the consignor as someone who took money and ran, and didn't do the right thing, along with, obviously, not doing further business with them until they make it right by you.

That's the proper way to do it...whether it's the EXPEDIENT way to do it, I'll grant you, is a different matter altogether.

 

[1Cool]

So the buyer holds no responsibility by buying a slab from a company who is known to have issues?  If I go to a shady local car dealer which is run out of a guys back yard and buy a car for cheap and the car turns out to be a lemon would I be expected to bare some of the blame?  The buyer would of course try to get their money back but if they couldn't would the neighbors feel any pity on them since everyone knows you don't buy a car from Fast Eddie.

[thunsicker]

35 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

So the buyer holds no responsibility by buying a slab from a company who is known to have issues?  If I go to a shady local car dealer which is run out of a guys back yard and buy a car for cheap and the car turns out to be a lemon would I be expected to bare some of the blame?  The buyer would of course try to get their money back but if they couldn't would the neighbors feel any pity on them since everyone knows you don't buy a car from Fast Eddie.

The OP wasn’t the customer of ‘Fast Eddie’ PGX, the seller was.  Unless you are saying any seller who would use PGX is a ‘Fast Eddie’ type of seller.

[1Cool]

7 minutes ago, thunsicker said:

The OP wasn’t the customer of ‘Fast Eddie’ PGX, the seller was.  Unless you are saying any seller who would use PGX is a ‘Fast Eddie’ type of seller.

I'm more comparing PGX to Fast Eddie in the fact they provide a known shady service (ie grading their own books and lack of restoration checks) but people use them or buy their product since it's cheaper then the competition and people love a deal.  Small car dealerships should provide a honest transaction but when you buy a car from a side of the road car dealership then don't come complaining to me about it when you roll the dice and it comes up snake eyes.

The OP did buy a PGX slab at a discount and quickly resubbed so I believe they knew of the risks of buying a PGX slab so although he didn't use PGX to grade the book he walked into the car lot and grabbed the cheap lemon hoping for a deal.

Edited August 9, 2018 by 1Cool

[NoMan]

would OP share in profits if it was resubbed and was complete, no resto and graded 2 grades higher? 

[RockMyAmadeus]

45 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

So the buyer holds no responsibility by buying a slab from a company who is known to have issues?  If I go to a shady local car dealer which is run out of a guys back yard and buy a car for cheap and the car turns out to be a lemon would I be expected to bare some of the blame?  The buyer would of course try to get their money back but if they couldn't would the neighbors feel any pity on them since everyone knows you don't buy a car from Fast Eddie.

As thun said above, the buyer didn't buy a slab from PGX. Theoretically, nobody actually buys slabs from PGX, although we know in practice, that isn't precisely true. In any event, your argument doesn't fly. The comic inside of the slab is what it is, regardless of the company doing the "grading." If I buy a Ford Focus from "Fast Eddie", and immediately send it to a Ford dealership to have it checked out (which is similar to what this buyer did), and they discover that the car is worse than "Fast Eddie" represented it to be...."Fast Eddie" doesn't get to wash his hands of the deal and say "shoulda known better than to deal with me, suckah!" That's not how it works. 

Now, "Fast Eddie" can sell a car "as is", and then it's entirely on the buyer...BUT, you can't sell anything "as is" on the internet, because the buyer doesn't have the ability to inspect the item prior to delivery. "As is" is not a magic incantation that gives the seller the absolute freedom to sell anything they want, in any condition they want, described any way they want, denying the buyer the right to inspect AND reject for non-conformity. And you certainly can't sell "as is" on eBay; their policies now implicitly prevent that. This is ESPECIALLY true when the item is represented...as this X-Men #1 was...as not having the defects that it actually had. 

We in the graded comics community have a funny way of looking at slabs that the rest of the world would (rightly) scoff at. I'm not a lawyer...but I imagine any judge looking at this would say "You sold a comic book that was appraised to be complete. The buyer, in a reasonable amount of time, took the comic to another appraiser, and discovered it was not complete. And you expect to keep your money...how?"...and then would laugh at the idea that the seller "wasn't getting back what he sold" if you tried to say "that's not what I sent them!" and included the slab....aka "the appraisal"...as an intrinsic part of the goods. Since it can be clearly demonstrated that slabs...especially PGX slabs....have ZERO value in and of themselves, no judge on earth is going to enforce such a requirement.

In the real world, this looks like a pretty open and shut case for the buyer, provided the facts are as stated.

Besides, I don't want to see you bare anything. I imagine you're quite the pasty fellow.

[RockMyAmadeus]

6 minutes ago, NoMan said:

would OP share in profits if it was resubbed and was complete, no resto and graded 2 grades higher? 

Resubbed by who? The buyer (OP) or the seller? Did you mean seller? The answer, of course, is no, and the implication you're making is invalid. Grading is subjective. Pages missing is not. If the book is graded by CGC, is complete, and "2 grades lower" (do you mean grade levels? 2 actual grades is a lot!), then you say to the OP (buyer) "awww...sorry about that. That's the risk you take, since grading is subjective. You could always resub it to PGX and hope for that grade bump back!" because grading is subjective.

Pages missing is not.

[Ottobord]

The grading companies should provide a service to open slabs in the presence of both parties of a sale.  otherwise caveat emptor

[mattn792]

22 minutes ago, Ottobord said:

The grading companies should provide a service to open slabs in the presence of both parties of a sale.  otherwise caveat emptor

Are you serious?  One, why should they, and two, do you realize what a logistical nightmare that would be?

[sd2416]

29 minutes ago, Ottobord said:

The grading companies should provide a service to open slabs in the presence of both parties of a sale.  otherwise caveat emptor

What are you smoking?

[Ottobord]

31 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

Are you serious?  One, why should they, and two, do you realize what a logistical nightmare that would be?

I am serious. Peace of mind for both buyer and seller.   How much is it worth to someone?  This isn't the first time I've heard of a story like this.  Obviously this would apply to high value books.