Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[mattn792]

18 minutes ago, Ottobord said:

I am serious. Peace of mind for both buyer and seller.   How much is it worth to someone?  This isn't the first time I've heard of a story like this.  Obviously this would apply to high value books.

And for a nominal extra fee, maybe the cracking verification rep can also haul along three graders and the slabbing machine.  Upgrade to instant verification and re-grade for that extra peace of mind!  Transit from Florida to, say, Washington state should only be several thousand dollars, no?

But now that I think about it, if Comic Verification Authority can somehow stay in business, maybe we could make money by offering this completely extraneous service...Comic Cracking Verification Authority! 

Company slogan:  You crack it, we back it.

[James J Johnson]

12 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The SELLER never sent what was described....a complete copy of X-Men #1...so ipso facto, the buyer can't return it, either. When you sell a comic, it is IMPLIED that it is complete, unless otherwise stated.

This is, again, the fallacy of treating a slab as an inviolate package. It's not. It's just a fancy appraisal; nothing more.

No. 

Removing a book from a slab doesn't change the book in the slightest (barring damage. Gotta make with the caveats around here!)

You're suggesting that conversion trumps return policies. The item received, the PGX slabbed book that the buyer purchased, has been converted to something else. Twice. First to raw, and then to being slabbed by a different service than sold. It can never be returned as received, not even if resubbed to PGX prior to return to re-convert it back to its received state because it would not have the same cert number unless that was reinstated. And that's not saying that PGX would grade it the same way the second time around. The product that was purchased, the book in the original PGX slab, cannot be returned as received.

 

[SteppinRazor]

12 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The SELLER never sent what was described....a complete copy of X-Men #1...so ipso facto, the buyer can't return it, either. When you sell a comic, it is IMPLIED that it is complete, unless otherwise stated.

This is, again, the fallacy of treating a slab as an inviolate package. It's not. It's just a fancy appraisal; nothing more.

No. 

Removing a book from a slab doesn't change the book in the slightest (barring damage. Gotta make with the caveats around here!)

If you violate the package (slab), then you destroy it, and it's added value.  And how do you prove a buyer damaged it cracking the slab?  If you didn't crack the slab, how do you know that damage didn't exist before?

With your logic, if you buy a slabbed book, and you re-sell the slabbed book, you are responsible for the contents of the slab that you could not open without damaging its value.  In essence you are assuming responsiblity for a comic you never handled and never examined.

Edited August 9, 2018 by SteppinRazor

[James J Johnson]

4 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

If you violate the package (slab), then you destroy it, and it's added value.

With your logic, if you buy a slabbed book, and you re-sell the slabbed book, you are responsible for the contents of the slab that you could not open without damaging its value.

That's correct. This wasn't damaged in transit. The buyer not only bought the book, but PGX's intellectual property and opinion as well, God help him. As much as I'm on the buyer's side and can feel his pain, once deliberately converted by the buyer, any item cannot be returned as received, violating the first rule of returns; as received, in this case, the book in an intact PGX slab.

And as stated, none of this will matter to Paypal or a credit card company. A claim can be started and the buyer will win, his refund automatic soon after the seller signs for the return or tracking indicates delivery.

Edited August 9, 2018 by James J Johnson

[Ottobord]

6 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

And for a nominal extra fee, maybe the cracking verification rep can also haul along three graders and the slabbing machine.  Upgrade to instant verification and re-grade for that extra peace of mind!  Transit from Florida to, say, Washington state should only be several thousand dollars, no?

But now that I think about it, if Comic Verification Authority can somehow stay in business, maybe we could make money by offering this completely extraneous service...Comic Cracking Verification Authority! 

Company slogan:  You crack it, we back it.

Good job portraying it as inconvenient as possible.  I just read 10 pages of comments with no real resolution.  I'm thinking buyer beware on untampered slabbed books then.  

[SteppinRazor]

9 minutes ago, mattn792 said:

And for a nominal extra fee, maybe the cracking verification rep can also haul along three graders and the slabbing machine.  Upgrade to instant verification and re-grade for that extra peace of mind!  Transit from Florida to, say, Washington state should only be several thousand dollars, no?

But now that I think about it, if Comic Verification Authority can somehow stay in business, maybe we could make money by offering this completely extraneous service...Comic Cracking Verification Authority! 

Company slogan:  You crack it, we back it.

Not saying it's a good idea, but it really isn't that far from having approved witnesses for SS books.

[mattn792]

4 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

Not saying it's a good idea, but it really isn't that far from having approved witnesses for SS books.

Witnesses are at scheduled conventions/appearances with known guest lists and can easily be prepared for in advance.  De-slabbing is a totally random and ad hoc event.  Completely different concepts.

[mattn792]

7 minutes ago, Ottobord said:

Good job portraying it as inconvenient as possible.  I just read 10 pages of comments with no real resolution.  I'm thinking buyer beware on untampered slabbed books then.  

If only we had little devices that could live record an action like cracking a slab in real time...

[MustEatBrains]

Wish I could find the video of that guy who received a PGX slabbed TMNT 1 1st print and recorded himself cracking out only to realize a third print was sitting in the slab... 

[MustEatBrains]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZJ4VwFHSp4

 

[mackenzie999]

On 8/8/2018 at 11:35 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

The seller is responsible for delivering what was advertised. "But they advertised a PGX graded book, and delivered that!" is the argument, right? Except that that doesn't create an automatic "as is" disclaimer for the seller. The seller is the one responsible to do his/her due diligence, and the implication is that the item is complete, at a minimum. If I sell a Batman #537 with a torn out page, and don't mention that, then I didn't sell a Batman #537...I sold an incomplete copy of Batman #537, or I sold parts of a Batman #537...not a Batman #537.

It wouldn't matter if it was PGX, CBCS, or even CGC...if the item isn't as described, whether by the seller or the third party grader, it's the seller's responsibility to the buyer. Just because a book is graded, it doesn't give any seller the ability to wash their hands of the responsibility. And then it becomes the responsibility of the seller to go back and seek compensation to the point where the problem started.

Think about this: you're selling your house. You have an HVAC company come in and install a new a/c unit. You advertise that as a selling point. You sell the house, and the buyer discovers that the a/c unit wasn't actually replaced. Who is the responsible party to the buyer, the former owner of the home, or the HVAC company? In that case, the former owner. It is then the former owner's responsibility to go after the HVAC company to make it right. 

Same with these scenarios. If the seller wasn't the one who slabbed it, it is his/her responsibility to seek compensation from the person who sold it to them, until you get back to PGX.

Commerce doesn't work if it's "just a gamble that didn't pay off." A buyer has a right to receive what they purchased.

Exactly. Thank you for saving me the trouble of writing this.

[1Cool]

53 minutes ago, MustEatBrains said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZJ4VwFHSp4

 

That video is a classic for everyone who rolls the dice on PGX slabs.  The dude is almost crying after finding out he got ripped off.

[Callaway29]

51 minutes ago, MustEatBrains said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZJ4VwFHSp4

 

Heard about this but never saw it, until now. Absolutely horrifying. I always thought it was a 3rd print accidentally graded as a 1st print, and then someone down the line in the chain of ownership cracked and found the error. Didn't know the person who submitted it received a 3rd printing back, and was scammed out of his 1st print. Unbelievable...

[miraclemet]

Thanks for a solid hour of Thursday afternoon reading everyone!

My 2 cents. OP bought a $4500 lottery ticket that had a chance of paying off $5500 or even more, but it also had the chance of paying out less. 

PGX is known to mis-identify, mis-grade, miss restoration, miss page counts, "miss" fake signatures.... 

OP paid for something of lesser quality at lesser price, and part of that lesser quality is less certainty. 

The rules of eBay/Paypal probably mean OP can get his money back, but if it had "worked out" for him, would he have paid the difference in the value? Of course not. 

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

I once thought about purchasing a PGX graded comic book ... then I woke up and my nightmare ended.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

 Funny thing is this, if the book is not returned in the PGX case he has no way of proving that it was the same book. Also seller can state that since it is no longer in the case it was sold in that it was damaged and no longer as collectible.

 

 PGX = Buyer Beware

[kav]

Don't buy PGX, folks.

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, Callaway29 said:

Heard about this but never saw it, until now. Absolutely horrifying. I always thought it was a 3rd print accidentally graded as a 1st print, and then someone down the line in the chain of ownership cracked and found the error. Didn't know the person who submitted it received a 3rd printing back, and was scammed out of his 1st print. Unbelievable...

That is the correct word, yet you still seem to believe this obviously staged B.S.

[Callaway29]

34 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

That is the correct word, yet you still seem to believe this obviously staged B.S.

Care to elaborate? I assume you have compelling evidence/observations backing up your conviction...

If that’s staged the guy deserves an academy award..

Edited August 9, 2018 by Callaway29

[chrisco37]

Apologies as I haven't read the last few hours of posts, but I'm chiming in anyway (and I'm short on time at the moment)....

I did want to comment on the "chain of custody" that RMA brought up; the "who is responsible".   As usual, he makes some compelling arguments.  I think MCS replied something along the lines of "when does it end?" (ie, the seller responsibility) or more so "who is financially responsible" when something like this occurs.   That's the biggest question I have; what is the "statute of limitations"?  Is 3 months enough?  1 year?  5 years?  

Who is ultimately responsible?   As has been noted, in the past CGC has stepped up to the plate in instances of screw-ups.  Certain dealers will accept returns as well on graded books (when many people do not).  Years ago, I bought a book from a well-known dealer.  I sent it in for grading and it came back as a purple label.  The dealer refunded my money on the book (less grading fees; I didn't ask, but he probably would've given that too).  

I think that on sales of a graded comic (no matter who the grading company is) can't extend to every person that previously sold the book.  I think the onus (mostly) falls on the buyer.  I think the OP here got screwed (intentionally or not, we don't know), but he did take the risk of buying PGX.  Earlier this year, I got a PM regarding a book I was looking for.  The seller had a PGX book in the range I was looking for.  He sent me a PM and offered the book up.  I thought the book looked very nice and was in line with what I would grade it at.  I responded with the following:

Quote

t’s a nice looking book.  But it’s PGX, so (at the risk of sounding snobby) for me it’s basically a raw book.  I won’t pay GPA prices for PGX.  There’s just been too many problems over the years with that company.  I don’t feel the same way about CBCS (so I’m not a total CGC homer). 

I’d still consider buying it, but under multiple conditions (totally understand if it’s more hassle than it’s worth for you):

1.  I need a lot more pics - close ups of all corners.  Close ups of the right edge all the way down the book.  Etc...

2.  Price has to come down.  I could do $XXX shipped, with the following stipulations.

3.  Full refund (less return shipping back to you) if I’m not satisfied with the book upon receipt.  If the book looks good to me, I will crack it and sub it to either CGC or CBCS.  If it comes back restored, I would expect a full refund (less grading costs & return shipping back to you).

 

I realize that’s “a lot to ask/expect”, so I wouldn’t feel bad if you told me no (or even go eff yourself. )

I’ve been around for awhile now.  I saw the start of PGX and I’ve seen the “scandals” and/or issues.  I just have zero faith/trust in their product/service.

Like I said above, I totally understand if you can’t/don’t want to do it.  No worries.  No hard feelings.

Let me know either way.  Thanks.

Ultimately, the sale didn't happen.  As I stated in the above, I know I was asking for a lot of conditions.  BUT, I (the buyer) was taking the responsibility of the potential purchase of a PGX book.  

Like others have said, when you gamble, sometimes you lose.  Unfortunately, that's what happened to the OP.  If he had sent correspondence similar to what I wrote above, he has some recourse.  

I think he got what he (over)paid for.  An Xmen #1, graded 4.5 by PGX.