Nightmare situation with eBayer / PGX 3 3

[Dr. Love]

Or why get stuck in midstream?  CGC should just push the product to its conclusion and be done with it - the case that can't be opened.  It's almost there already in the new iteration.  After almost 20 years the market has been prepared for the concept of purely cover centric art.  Raw copies are always available for those that hold onto "old ways".  Most comics are available now in digital form too.

[RockMyAmadeus]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Love said:

The argument that a certain array of letters on a document, the title, conveys any certainty about a number of pages or even what is contained between the covers is commonly assumed but not necessarily true. 

That's not accurate. There is an implication of completeness, both in the type of document...in this case, one that says "World", the PGX version of CGC's "Universal", rather than "Qualified"...as well as the title of the item itself. 

If I sell you a copy of Batman #442, with one of the pages missing, am I selling you a Batman #442? Or an incomplete Batman #442? Obviously, the book is no longer as it was manufactured, and therefore cannot be called a "Batman #442" without qualification...hence, the "Qualified" grade.

13 minutes ago, Dr. Love said:

And then if you buy the house and down the road you find mold behind that shower wall?  You can't go back to the seller.

Depends. If the seller knew about the mold, you can. If the seller should have known there was mold, you probably can. 

"Well, there you go! The seller can simply claim they didn't know about the missing pages, and they're off the hook!" 

Not quite. Mold is not something missing that should be there, and is implied to be there. Mold is, rather, an (unwelcome) addition. Its presence is not foundational to the integrity of the house, as pages are to a comic. In theory, mold doesn't "come with the house", as all its pages do with a comic.

In this case, the missing pages, assumed to be there, created a false impression as to the value of the book, which value unjustly enriched the seller (known or not.) Granted, a seller can't be held liable for what they don't know, but once it's found out...then they can, since they directly benefited from that erroneous evaluation.

[RockMyAmadeus]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Love said:

Or why get stuck in midstream?  CGC should just push the product to its conclusion and be done with it - the case that can't be opened.  It's almost there already in the new iteration.  After almost 20 years the market has been prepared for the concept of purely cover centric art.  

I wish I could say this was tin-hat conspiracy...but, sadly, it's not. Far too much of the market thinks of the slab as inviolate, and that's a real tragedy, not to mention, a situation that would be custom made for fraud and corruption.

[JWKyle]

Following this thread the OP better hope he gets someone from Ebay or Paypal that shares RMA's view on the issue when he files the claim. 

How can PGX with everything that's slipped through the cracks still be able to do what they do. Kind of surprised someone hasn't tried to sue them into oblivion. 

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, Callaway29 said:

Care to elaborate? I assume you have some undeniable evidence backing up your absolute conviction...

The believable thing is that PGX messed up and mislabeled a book. Even CGC has done that multiple times (including on a TMNT 1 ), but they don't explicitly state first printings on their labels. Rather, it's implied, like a book being complete unless the description explicitly says otherwise.

 

This situation has been discussed multiple times on these boards. Here's the original thread:

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/140769-wrong-printing-discovered-in-returned-pgx-graded-book-do-i-have-legal-options/

[thunsicker]

The long and short of this is everyone missed the fact that there were missing pages until it got to CGC.  If the seller bought it from someone they missed it or misrepresented it, The seller missed it when he bought it or misrepresented it when he subbed it, PGX missed it.  Then the OP couldn’t check it, but sent it off to CGC to have it checked out and they caught it.  And yet some of you want to lay the blame on the OP?  Or say he got what he paid for?  Color me confused.

[kav]

Don't buy PGX, folks.

[Dr. Love]

Or if you do, don't crack it out.  Cracking it out is like hitting the bathroom after a supermodel just took a wicked dump in there.  You might experience things you wish you hadn't.

[Artboy99]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's not accurate. There is an implication of completeness, both in the type of document...in this case, one that says "World", the PGX version of CGC's "Universal", rather than "Qualified"...as well as the title of the item itself. 

If I sell you a copy of Batman #442, with one of the pages missing, am I selling you a Batman #442? Or an incomplete Batman #442? Obviously, the book is no longer as it was manufactured, and therefore cannot be called a "Batman #442" without qualification...hence, the "Qualified" grade.

Depends. If the seller knew about the mold, you can. If the seller should have known there was mold, you probably can. 

"Well, there you go! The seller can simply claim they didn't know about the missing pages, and they're off the hook!" 

Not quite. Mold is not something missing that should be there, and is implied to be there. Mold is, rather, an (unwelcome) addition. Its presence is not foundational to the integrity of the house, as pages are to a comic. In theory, mold doesn't "come with the house", as all its pages do with a comic.

In this case, the missing pages, assumed to be there, created a false impression as to the value of the book, which value unjustly enriched the seller (known or not.) Granted, a seller can't be held liable for what they don't know, but once it's found out...then they can, since they directly benefited from that erroneous evaluation.

Your stance on this topic leads to possibilities that will utterly destroy the encapsulated model that is a benefit to our comic collecting hobby/ business. The encapsulated model is a 3rd party grade that establishes a circumstance where the seller and the buyer can both agree in advance of the transaction that the book is the grade as stated on the label and it assists in trade because it takes the subjectivity of grading between 2 different individuals out of the equation. The seller is not responsible for the grade in the transaction because you the buyer are relying on and accepting in advance of your purchase the grade provided by the 3rd party.

Lets add a further example of what you are advocating:

you sell me a CGC 7.0 copy of a book. Once I receive it I send the slab in to get it graded again, and it comes back a 6.0. As the buyer I did nothing but resubmit the book, in this case I didn't even open the 7.0 slab. By your "rules" you did not sell me the book I purchased which was a 7.0 copy of the book. I want my money back please because you profited from the exchange and in effect I now have 3rd party "professional and industry accepted" proof that you did not sell me a 7.0 and it was an erroneous evaluation by YOU the seller that you directly benefited from.

The 3rd party grade has to continue to be an accepted parameter by which 2 people can complete a comic transaction or it ceases to be of any value.

 

[Artboy99]

3 hours ago, kav said:

Don't buy PGX, folks.

THIS

[KPR Comics]

Who is to say that CGC didn’t get it wrong?  Maybe they mislabeled, or were incorrect in their “missing pages” notes.  

Only one way to find out....   crack and submit to Voldy.

[valiantman]

10 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Far too much of the market thinks of the slab as inviolate

I'll disagree because I'm confident this market has never even seen that word, much less think it.  

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

30 minutes ago, valiantman said:

10 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Far too much of the market thinks of the slab as inviolate

I'll disagree because I'm confident this market has never even seen that word, much less think it.  

[Red84]

14 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Except that it was not that kind of gamble, and not relevant in this particular situation.

I wish that could be understood. 

I've been thinking about this situation, and I think it most closely relates to this:

You're at a a slot machine. At a normal slot machine, you have a chance of winning, and a chance of losing. You know that going in. 

However, this particular slot machine, a maintenance person took out all the jackpot cherries (I don't know how that would work; suspend disbelief with me for the sake of the argument.)

You don't know that the cherries were taken out. You think the cherries are all there, and you have a legitimate chance...however slim...of hitting them. The casino doesn't realize the cherries were taken out. Nobody knows...but you have ZERO chance of winning on this particular machine.

That's similar to the case here. Had the book come back 4.0 Universal...well, that's the gamble the buyer took, and I suspect there would be no problem. It was a 4.5, now it's a 4.0. It's now "worth less" than what the buyer paid for, but hey, them's the breaks. It could have been a 5.0. Could have been a 6.0 with a press. Who knows? In either scenario, the buyer neither would have a claim on the seller, nor would he owe the seller anything. 

The difference here is those missing pages, which is not part of that "gamble" that everyone is talking about, because it's a very serious problem that is unknown, and unknowable by the buyer UNTIL he/she receives it and has it checked out. "Well, that's the risk you take with PGX!"...except, again, that's an "as is" type of transaction that is not enforceable, especially since the buyer sent the item to another appraiser. He fulfilled his obligation to mitigate his risk, as any small claims court judge will tell you.

Like I said...our little corner of the world looks at slabs weird, in a way that the justice system almost certainly would not. In the real world, the buyer received the book, already appraised, and decided to send it to his own appraiser within a very reasonable amount of time. He doesn't lose

 

Lets take the inverse. What if when he cracked the book he found that it was a double cover that pgx had missed. Now he has an extra page that he didn’t pay for. Would he be obligated to give the seller additional money?

[1Cool]

26 minutes ago, Red84 said:

Lets take the inverse. What if when he cracked the book he found that it was a double cover that pgx had missed. Now he has an extra page that he didn’t pay for. Would he be obligated to give the seller additional money?

No one would be discussing this issue if the buyer got a steal for a CGC 4.5 and definitely if he got a double cover which got graded 6.0 based on the inside cover.  The PGX price discount is because the lack of restoration is a given but that is part of the game people play when they buy for cheap and resub.  Is it right the submitter made more then they should due to the error - no.  But you can't yell foul when a possible known outcome comes up that causes you to lose big time.

Edited August 10, 2018 by 1Cool

[Ottobord]

22 hours ago, mattn792 said:

If only we had little devices that could live record an action like cracking a slab in real time...

But what happens to the comic off camera?  The more you push back against my idea the more I think it's a good one. CGC could create a slab that could only be opened by a CGC representative. Perhaps with a special key.  The raw comic can then be inspected and returned to the undamaged but locked slab all under the supervision of the representative.  They could roll out the service at the conventions they attend.  Or the other solution is buyers could notify and request permission of their sellers that they intend to break open the slabs they purchase and there is a slim possibility that the comic might be returned. To which this seller would say. NO

[Callaway29]

If I was the seller, I'd be PO'd if someone tried to return a book they cracked out.

If I was the buyer, I'd be upset with PGX (and probably myself).

The thought would never cross my mind to hold the seller liable...sometimes life isn't fair. Instead of passing the self-inflicted misfortune to someone else, I'd take it like a man...

[valiantman]

CGC = Carfax

PGX = Carfox

 

[Park]

5 minutes ago, Callaway29 said:

If I was the seller, I'd be PO'd if someone tried to return a book they cracked out.

If I was the buyer, I'd be upset with PGX (and probably myself).

The thought would never cross my mind to hold the seller liable...sometimes life isn't fair. Instead of passing the self-inflicted misfortune to someone else, I'd take it like a man...

It is not misfortune. This isn't that complicated.

The buyer did not receive what he was sold. He bought a PGX 4.5. A book missing 2 pages is not a 4.5 even by PGx's ridiculous standards.

This is not a disagreement over anything subjective like a grade. The book is missing two pages. Black and white. Not what was advertised and not what was sold. 

The buyer is almost certainly hosed because I am not seeing anywhere that he documented anything. The logistics of documenting a book bought in a PGX slab and then sending to CGC seem monumental in any situation. In this particular situation, not much can be done but if I was the buyer I would still contact the seller and let them know.

And RMAs other argument is based in fact as well. The seller benefited from this (whether he had any idea or not is irrelevant) error as well. Benefitting from something being materially  and tangibly different (pages missing) is worlds apart from an opinion (grading). 

This particular buyer in this situation is hosed because he cannot provide any sort of proof (that I have seen. Maybe I missed it?) that he documented it is the same book. As a seller, I would be hard pressed to be that trusting unless it was a long time customer that I knew and trusted.

Chrisco also brought up the time frame as well. When is it too late? There are quite a few sellers who have taken back books months later when resto was discovered. I am sure it is like I stated above with repeat customers they trusted. 

In this situation, I think the OP is probably hoses as it is gonna be hard to prove that it is the same book. Just because PGX is a joke (although they are still in business) doesn't absolve the seller of responsibility.

The seller sold a book that was tangibly different than what the buyer received. Removing the book from the holder removes PGX's (or CGC's) opinion of the grade of the book within. Not whether it is complete or not. That is two different worlds.

 

 

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, Ottobord said:

But what happens to the comic off camera?  The more you push back against my idea the more I think it's a good one. CGC could create a slab that could only be opened by a CGC representative. Perhaps with a special key.  The raw comic can then be inspected and returned to the undamaged but locked slab all under the supervision of the representative.  They could roll out the service at the conventions they attend.  Or the other solution is buyers could notify and request permission of their sellers that they intend to break open the slabs they purchase and there is a slim possibility that the comic might be returned. To which this seller would say. NO

What you are proposing is possible but not cost effective. At all.