Nostalgia vs. Craft in Original Art 0

[vodou]

3 hours ago, Andahaion said:

How many people know who George Inness is...?

I discovered Inness in 2009 at the Amon Carter, his work can be ethereal and transcendent. You can Google him but really it's better to see something in person.

[Nexus]

I believe there is potential for pendulum to swing back to craft...if "craft" isn't strictly limited to draftsmanship/technical skill, but includes storytelling, as well. Which is not to say that interest in the Studio guys (as one example) hasn't already peaked, but we can't definitively predict how interest in this art form will evolve. I wouldn't bet on nostalgia continuing to rule the day indefinitely, either.

[Sideshow Bob]

33 minutes ago, vodou said:

I discovered Inness in 2009 at the Amon Carter, his work can be ethereal and transcendent. You can Google him but really it's better to see something in person.

Ah, George Inness...my 100% favorite Hudson Valley artist. Been looking to get one of his paintings for years (have the reference book), but always worried I'll accidentally buy his son's work. Easier to make that mistake than to accidentally buy JRJR. Someday I'll pick on e up at auction...

[Mr. Machismo]

I’ve mentioned this before but it’s relevant: the gallery edition of DKR sits on my coffee table; I’ve had a number of fellow mellenials criticize the art. Same with Tim Sale—my wife thinks she can draw better than him. Mind you, I love them both, they just don’t get the same appreciation from younger readers as someone like Jason Fabok or Jim Lee would, as they’re not as palatable among the masses as more expected, more “heroic” comic artwork.

Point being, nostalgia isn’t much at play with exceedingly young collectors, and they’re left with craft. I believe this is both good and necessary to keep the hobby alive, as if newbie collectors are trying to hunt down HUSH pages, they’re going to see the prices and quickly bail. It’s far better if they go to someone like Felix and pick up a $200 page from the new Venom comic to stoke the flame. The collector who bought a $200 Venom page is more likely to develop his collection and pick up a $12000 HUSH page down the road than the collector who immediately seeks it. And if he doesn’t, who cares, it’s a new collector to the hobby.

PS: Sean Murphy roolz, BWS droolz.  

Edited August 8, 2018 by Mr. Machismo

[Nexus]

1 hour ago, Nexus said:

I believe there is potential for pendulum to swing back to craft...if "craft" isn't strictly limited to draftsmanship/technical skill, but includes storytelling, as well. Which is not to say that interest in the Studio guys (as one example) hasn't already peaked, but we can't definitively predict how interest in this art form will evolve. I wouldn't bet on nostalgia continuing to rule the day indefinitely, either.

Also, isn't any perceived decrease in appreciation of the Studio guys, not only due to changing tastes, but nostalgia reaching its expiration date, as well?

[artcollector9]

42 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Also, isn't any perceived decrease in appreciation of the Studio guys, not only due to changing tastes, but nostalgia reaching its expiration date, as well?

That's a very astute point. T0 some degree the collectors of the Studio were collecting nostalgia, as well as craft. 

Will 'nostalgia' for  Marvel and DC characters be sustained since new generations are making those characters their own?

I think it will. 

 

[comix4fun]

1 hour ago, Mr. Machismo said:

I’ve mentioned this before but it’s relevant: the gallery edition of DKR sits on my coffee table; I’ve had a number of fellow mellenials criticize the art. Same with Tim Sale—my wife thinks she can draw better than him. Mind you, I love them both, they just don’t get the same appreciation from younger readers as someone like Jason Fabok or Jim Lee would, as they’re not as palatable among the masses as more expected, more “heroic” comic artwork.

Point being, nostalgia isn’t much at play with exceedingly young collectors, and they’re left with craft. I believe this is both good and necessary to keep the hobby alive, as if newbie collectors are trying to hunt down HUSH pages, they’re going to see the prices and quickly bail. It’s far better if they go to someone like Felix and pick up a $200 page from the new Venom comic to stoke the flame. The collector who bought a $200 Venom page is more likely to develop his collection and pick up a $12000 HUSH page down the road than the collector who immediately seeks it. And if he doesn’t, who cares, it’s a new collector to the hobby.

PS: Sean Murphy roolz, BWS droolz.  

Three Points:

1)Your spouse thinking she can draw better than Tim Sale is grounds for divorce in 27 states and the District of Columbia. 

2)When a collector or appreciator of artwork matures they should, eventually, realize that there's genius in certain creators who don't give you what you expect or what's obvious, but instead give you something truly special that (when you get it) you have a "eureka" moment of personal art appreciation epiphany.  When you "get" an artist like Tim Sale, or Alex Toth, or Mignola, or Miller, or several other non-obvious-at-first-blush-comic-book-work talents, it's extraordinarily personally satisfying. 

3)I threw up in my mouth a little (a lot) over the Sean Murphy comment. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by comix4fun

[jjonahjameson11]

1 hour ago, Mr. Machismo said:

I’ve mentioned this before but it’s relevant: the gallery edition of DKR sits on my coffee table; I’ve had a number of fellow mellenials criticize the art. Same with Tim Sale—my wife thinks she can draw better than him. Mind you, I love them both, they just don’t get the same appreciation from younger readers as someone like Jason Fabok or Jim Lee would, as they’re not as palatable among the masses as more expected, more “heroic” comic artwork.

Point being, nostalgia isn’t much at play with exceedingly young collectors, and they’re left with craft. I believe this is both good and necessary to keep the hobby alive, as if newbie collectors are trying to hunt down HUSH pages, they’re going to see the prices and quickly bail. It’s far better if they go to someone like Felix and pick up a $200 page from the new Venom comic to stoke the flame. The collector who bought a $200 Venom page is more likely to develop his collection and pick up a $12000 HUSH page down the road than the collector who immediately seeks it. And if he doesn’t, who cares, it’s a new collector to the hobby.

PS: Sean Murphy roolz, BWS droolz.  

Who the heck is Sean Murphy?

[comix4fun]

1 minute ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Who the heck is Sean Murphy?

If you don't know that Sean Murphy is the next Frank Miller, then you haven't asked him yet. 

[jjonahjameson11]

Just now, comix4fun said:

If you don't know that Sean Murphy is the next Frank Miller, then you haven't asked him yet. 

Based on his recent work, I’d say that Frank Miller ain’t Frank Miller

[comix4fun]

4 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Based on his recent work, I’d say that Frank Miller ain’t Frank Miller

He was talking about his Batman book...compared to Frank's. 

[cstojano]

1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

Three Points:

1)Your spouse thinking she can draw better than Tim Sale is grounds for divorce in 27 states and the District of Columbia. 

 

No comment on Tim Sale but I did/do think I can paint better than that 75k Magic artwork that sold at HA two weeks ago. My first thought was that it looked like I tried to paint my mother. 

 

To the initial question posed, I am one of those people who have lived this experience of wishing the masses "got it" for my entire collecting life. It has taken years to just give in to my tastes, which many may consider bad. But really I cannot make myself spend money on something I just don't appreciate, whether its an investment or not. I am absolutely awful at making investment based decisions, to the point that people should email me before making a big purchase to see if I like the item. If I do it will be flat for 15 years. I recently started getting interested in the prop world, but not 3D screen used stuff which I find shoddily made and boring. Nah, I go for the concept art. I am a huge Tolkien fan, but that's Bakshi not Jackson. I like Frazetta's watercolors more than his oils. Kirby, Lord of Light or 2001 for me please. Ploog, no comic art, thank you only his movie work. You get the point  I have never understood the superhero genre and have no interest in it. But if I did, it would be some D tier character who was about to get a spin-off movie, until I got involved and the project would be shelved. I am in my mid 40s and really have no connection to the horror and fantasy of he late 60s and 70s, but have a much stronger interest in the Warren and Studio crowd than any Marvel bronze age material. But to see me beaming when I show off my stuff to the rare visitor tells the real story of what matters. I have fully accepted that Heritage will one day get a call from my wife.

Edited August 9, 2018 by cstojano

[Brian Peck]

When I first started collecting nostalgia was the big factor for me and it still is. But I have found over the last 15-20 years I have been more drawn to the craft of many pieces. I love the craft he puts into the Flash Gordon work, I do prefer his Flash over Rip Kirby but more for the craft of his brushwork compared to pen he used on Kirby. I think the older a collector gets his tastes expand and  can gravitate more towards the craft.

[tth2]

11 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I've had a LOT of discussions with friends and fellow collectors recently about the whole "nostalgia vs. craft" debate in the original art hobby, as it seems that, at least as far as market values go, "nostalgia" has been far outpacing "craft".   

The most expensive panel sold in public was drawn by Herb Trimpe.  Herb Trimpe!

*mic drop*

[Lucky Baru]

The question can be answered by looking at the classic car market.  Generally, the vehicles at the top of the mountain remain the same and continue to increase in value..  After that, vehicle's desirability/values rise and fall as the age groups within the hobby start to age out.  The new blood seeks vehicles that makes them feel warm and fuzzy, remembering a better time in their lives, and the values adjust accordingly.  The styles change too.  The older crowd doesn't understand why the new blood want X,Y, or Z, and the younger crowd could care less about many of the vehicles that the older crowd held dear.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Lucky Baru

[Mr. Machismo]

2 hours ago, comix4fun said:

Three Points:

1)Your spouse thinking she can draw better than Tim Sale is grounds for divorce in 27 states and the District of Columbia. 

2)When a collector or appreciator of artwork matures they should, eventually, realize that there's genius in certain creators who don't give you what you expect or what's obvious, but instead give you something truly special that (when you get it) you have a "eureka" moment of personal art appreciation epiphany.  When you "get" an artist like Tim Sale, or Alex Toth, or Mignola, or Miller, or several other non-obvious-at-first-blush-comic-book-work talents, it's extraordinarily personally satisfying. 

3)I threw up in my mouth a little (a lot) over the Sean Murphy comment. 

1) She loves the Long Halloween TPB cover on the wall, so as long as she doesn’t colour it in one day, we’re all good. 

2) Totally agree. The sentiment I was trying to get across is, all the artists you mention come at a premium, deservedly so, as they’re all masters at what they do. They’re also all artists known for their earlier works, and thus nostalgia paired with craft fuels the price tags of their earlier, more notable works. Newer, younger collectors won’t have that nostalgia, and likely won’t have the appreciation you and I do for the aforementioned artists, and opt to buy something like Ryan Stegman or Ryan Ottley. And that’s a good thing, because if they immediately went to the Mignolas and Millers, they’d be priced out and leave the hobby before they even entered. 

3) Indeed. He’s that good. 

[comix4fun]

3 hours ago, comix4fun said:

. 

3)I threw up in my mouth a little (a lot) over the Sean Murphy comment. 

 

1 hour ago, Mr. Machismo said:

 

3) Indeed. He’s that good. 

That’s what’s written on the bumper sticker he send free with every art order , right ?

[comix4fun]

It is catchy.....

 

[AnkurJ]

What about when nostalgia and craft come together?

I commissioned Kaluta to do a few pieces. One was a Batman Illo he did years ago. Not only did I have nostalgia for the image but I loved his artistry. So it wasn’t a great combo.

[ESeffinga]

I think there are a few concepts and ideas in this thread that sort of criss-cross.

There are collectors who are largely interested in the Intellectual Property. Call it nostalgia, if you want, but that's not totally fair. SOme folks may have nostalgia as a driving motivator, but others it may just be a discovery later in life. They didn't grow up reading funny books, and have the kind of connection that many of us do. They discover comics in their late teens, early 20s, but because today's popular culture is so accepting of this  (this is going to sound harsh) infantilism, that so many young (and old) adults are deeply immersed in things that may not have really been on their radar during childhood. I've met a number of folks in the last few years buying their first comic OA from me, and these have been people who haven't been comic fans their whole lives. But with the emergence of social media, I feel like Instagram, Pinterest, Facebook and the like have been spreading the experience/existence of original art in numbers that would have been unfathomable even 5 or 10 years ago.

This brings me to the argument I associate with Gene, that people don't just drop 50K on a Kirby page because he helped create Iron Man, and they saw the movie a dozen times. This is true as far as I'm concerned, and it cycles around to what Felix said. At some point age will catch up with prices on certain works and their creators, both. And in ways both possible to anticipate, and unexpected.

The way that I see the hobby is largely as divided by Populism and Distinct Visual Language. These are not mutually exclusive, but it is rare that they happen together.

Populism is work that is easily digested, accepted, and enjoyed by a majority. That could be based around an IP, or an artist. And I'm going to pick on some artists/works to give some examples. I actually enjoy works from all of these people, so in fact I'm picking on myself.

Jim Lee's work is easy to like. It's solid, has a general experienced grasp of anatomy, lighting, dynamics, a fairly identifiable style, and presents things in a general form of realism. He bends the rules with a bit of cartooning every so often (his HUSH Joker springs to mind), but by and large he makes things look "cool" and gives you want you want to see, as Chris C puts it above.

Then we can look to Tim Sale, since he's been brought into this thread already. Tim has created a unique visual language. If anyone thinks they can draw better than Tim, they better start a book now, because they are going to be a legend. At least for a time. Creating your own visual language is hard. In fact most artists try their whole lives and can't. Most people tend to learn to draw by looking at other people. Circling back to Jim Lee. His work is popular. And it's appealing, and most folks want to draw in a way that is popular and appealing. Some folks can and do, and their work remains uninspiring, and in the best case, it's a look alike. In a worse case, they evolve ever so slightly. Enough to be distinguishable and get work, but the comic book market is flooded with them. And I don't mean Jim Lee "clones", though there was a time where that was the case, but I mean people drawing all in a sort of similar, "what you expect to see" manner.

It's a natural progression for anyone into making art. You start off aping your heroes until you grow into a style that you develop that you own. Some apples don't fall too far from the tree. Some are hugely unique. Tim is one of those. He came up when Jim did, but his work was unique from the get go. Rough at first, like everyone including Jim, but his own style coalesced. The Long Halloween may prove to be the closest to a hit as Tim may ever have. But Sale has done something that many of the frequently best selling artists in comics may never do. He put a very distinct book out there in his own inimitable style. I think this had a massive influence in a different way. Which is as encouragement to creators that see the world differently. Than may feel discouraged by their work, or uninspired by their artistic choices.

BUT, style and influence doesn't mean popular, or money. People enjoyed TLH when it was released, but few seemed to get as excited during it's release as the rumbles created by TDKR.

And so we come to Mr. Miller. Frank hit the nail on the head in the 80s. Have gave the world a combo of a unique visual language, AND populism. It struck a nerve during a very specific era, and the shock waves of influence are still rippling out.

Here's the rub. As Mr. M. points out, there are folks coming up today that aren't wearing a scholarly blazer and sitting around researching the history of these old comics that were released more than a decade before they were even born, and 30 years in the past. That shock wave is mere ripples they may not ever be able to comprehend. They may not see why Sean Murphy is even bothering to compare himself to Frank Miller, when clearly Sean's the better artist... They see that work for it's surface only. They see people the "revolution" of it's time and it's lost on them because it's already been absorbed. The old timers they can still appreciate, absorbed Frank when they were coming up. Folks since then have done just about every permutation and homage of Dark Knight style Batman in both literal drawings, and ingested and re-imagined in their own work. To them what was revolutionary is actually just Thursday. They've seen it all. Or at least the tropes and the visual stylistics. The history of the thing... old news. Not important.

How many folks here love a film, and that film was directly influenced by something like a silent film? Some folks like to go back and see those old silent pictures, and they can be quaint. Fewer still will actually be moved by those old moving images. And so the popularity wanes with every passing year. And the famous directors of those films? The ones with distinct visual language, even if they also held popular sway? Also waning.

So when I read through this craft vs. nostalgia thread, I actually see a much muddier picture.
Jim Lee knows his craft. So does Tim Sale. To think that Jim's depiction of Batman is somehow more accomplished because he draws in a more universal realist language than Tim's exaggerated one, to me rings of ignorance and having never been an artist. Which let's be honest, most folks have never been. It's an understandable position, and for sure a popular one, but not a truth. They are distinct and different expressions coming from two distinct and different creators. And the more easily digestible will always be the more popular. When you challenge expectations, there will always be resistors.

And FWIW, it's not a new thing. BWS... a lot of his non-comics work schtick was to regurgitate the Pre-Raphaelites. Standing at the Tate Britain in "the" room, with so many of those Pre-Raphaelite originals hanging around, it was hard for me not to see BWS all over the place. There was one portrait especially... it's hard to shed those influences.

And then there's the old adage about he who ignores history... what passes for culture has largely become a giant recycle.
Recycle movies. Recycle music. Recycle comics. Recycle art. Take the old thing, put a tiny twist on it. Get famous. Chase the money.

Because generating a unique artistic language is hard.

 

I'm done yelling at the clouds... carry on! 
-e.