Nostalgia vs. Craft in Original Art 0

[buttock]

Since craft is not appreciated, can someone please find me a nice Kaluta Shadow page? 

[Panelfan1]

59 minutes ago, buttock said:

Since craft is not appreciated, can someone please find me a nice Kaluta Shadow page? 

Perhaps you need to read the whole thread again. Craft is a factor - and while nostalgia is a bigger factor - sometimes the reason we have nostalgia in the first place is the craft was so good!

 

Btw- I would agree with you Kaluta is good at his craft.

 

[The Voord]

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 3:37 AM, Panelfan1 said:

Perhaps you need to read the whole thread again. Craft is a factor - and while nostalgia is a bigger factor - sometimes the reason we have nostalgia in the first place is the craft was so good!

 

Btw- I would agree with you Kaluta is good at his craft.

 

Craft coupled with nostalgia is the winning combination.

Edited August 22, 2018 by The Voord

[Bronty]

On 8/19/2018 at 6:35 PM, buttock said:

Since craft is not appreciated, can someone please find me a nice Kaluta Shadow page? 

See but that statement alone says a lot.   To me with all respect that's the statement of someone who values nostalgia, or at least, relevance to comic collecting.

Shadow is so very far down the list of kaluta's best work.   Its what he's known for, because its where he made his name, but if you were really into his craft per se, IMO, you'd want much more recent work.   I believe he's one of the few that got better as time went on.

[Rick2you2]

6 hours ago, Bronty said:

See but that statement alone says a lot.   To me with all respect that's the statement of someone who values nostalgia, or at least, relevance to comic collecting.

Shadow is so very far down the list of kaluta's best work.   Its what he's known for, because its where he made his name, but if you were really into his craft per se, IMO, you'd want much more recent work.   I believe he's one of the few that got better as time went on.

Interesting idea for a thread: who has gotten better as time went on? I think you can add Mignola to that list.

[ESeffinga]

^That one is going to get debated.

Mignola is a special case.

I would agree with you that Mike has pushed and pushed his style, refining it to such a degree he will always be mentioned when it comes to artistic evolution.

The big BUT comes in when talking about the look of his work. There is a whole crew of folks that think Mike’s work was best during Wolves of St August, or even Conqeror Worm. There are arguments to be made, but it just comes down to what you value in an artist’s work at that point.

Aesthetically come people prefer the detail, the more rendered out figures and shapes, etc. 

Others really get the craft of what mike has been doing. The difficulty of stripping his designs back to only what is essential. Even those trademark throwaway panels like the odd skull of flower thrown into a panel layout. They serve a purpose. Sometimes obvious. Some are more subliminal. 

Me? I enjoy both eras of Mikes work. I don’t see either as better than in most respects. Just evolved and admirable for different reasons.

 

 

[Pete Marino]

15 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

Interesting idea for a thread: who has gotten better as time went on? I think you can add Mignola to that list.

Art Adams, i think his stuff just keeps getting better and better.

The problem is he doesn't do interiors very often.  If memory serves the last thing he did was for Ultimate X-Men nearly 5 or 6 years ago.  But he still does amazing covers on a fairly regular basis.

[buttock]

6 hours ago, Bronty said:

See but that statement alone says a lot.   To me with all respect that's the statement of someone who values nostalgia, or at least, relevance to comic collecting.

Shadow is so very far down the list of kaluta's best work.   Its what he's known for, because its where he made his name, but if you were really into his craft per se, IMO, you'd want much more recent work.   I believe he's one of the few that got better as time went on.

I think his style has evolved, but not necessarily improved.  I really like his 70s work.  Shadow wasn't consistently his best stuff, but some of it is incredible.  His 1970s and 1980s work is the sweet spot for me.  I'd love to have a Shadow page, a nice DC horror page or cover, or a Conan the King cover (yeah, good luck!).  I'd say he's been about as consistent as one could be over a 40 year stretch.  

[Bronty]

3 hours ago, buttock said:

I think his style has evolved, but not necessarily improved.  I really like his 70s work.  Shadow wasn't consistently his best stuff, but some of it is incredible.  

The shadow stuff was sometimes great, but also sometimes raw, unrefined, less successful 'craft.'    So ask yourself why you want a kaluta shadow page.    Maybe you want it for reasons other than craft.

 

Hmmm...

[buttock]

1 minute ago, Bronty said:

The shadow stuff was sometimes great, but also sometimes raw, unrefined, less successful 'craft.'    So ask yourself why you want a kaluta shadow page.    Maybe you want it for reasons other than craft.

 

Hmmm...

I want a Kaluta Shadow page because I know the page I want and where it is and I've seen it and it's spectacular.  

[Bronty]

Just now, buttock said:

I want a Kaluta Shadow page because I know the page I want and where it is and I've seen it and it's spectacular.  

Changing the goalposts my friend.  

[Bronty]

Anyways the #1 reason craft will never hold a candle to other considerations in comic art is that if craft were truly what the buyer wanted, they wouldn’t be collecting comic art in the first place, or at least, not limiting themselves to comic art.    For the most part (please spare me the one offs and exceptions, people ;) ) that doesn’t happen.

[Panelfan1]

8 hours ago, Bronty said:

Anyways the #1 reason craft will never hold a candle to other considerations in comic art is that if craft were truly what the buyer wanted, they wouldn’t be collecting comic art in the first place, or at least, not limiting themselves to comic art.    For the most part (please spare me the one offs and exceptions, people ) that doesn’t happen.

It will hold a candle as you say- when distinguishing among comic art.  

[stinkininkin]

20 hours ago, Bronty said:

See but that statement alone says a lot.   To me with all respect that's the statement of someone who values nostalgia, or at least, relevance to comic collecting.

Shadow is so very far down the list of kaluta's best work.   Its what he's known for, because its where he made his name, but if you were really into his craft per se, IMO, you'd want much more recent work.   I believe he's one of the few that got better as time went on.

Wait, are you just talking panel storytelling stuff?  Because I don't know many Kaluta collectors who think anything beats his Studio era illustrations.  Yes this is subjective and it doesn't mean Kaluta hasn't had a nice, long career, but technically and thematically, the Studio stuff is the sweet spot IMHO.  

[Rick2you2]

21 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

^That one is going to get debated.

Mignola is a special case.

I would agree with you that Mike has pushed and pushed his style, refining it to such a degree he will always be mentioned when it comes to artistic evolution.

The big BUT comes in when talking about the look of his work. There is a whole crew of folks that think Mike’s work was best during Wolves of St August, or even Conqeror Worm. There are arguments to be made, but it just comes down to what you value in an artist’s work at that point.

Aesthetically come people prefer the detail, the more rendered out figures and shapes, etc. 

Others really get the craft of what mike has been doing. The difficulty of stripping his designs back to only what is essential. Even those trademark throwaway panels like the odd skull of flower thrown into a panel layout. They serve a purpose. Sometimes obvious. Some are more subliminal. 

Me? I enjoy both eras of Mikes work. I don’t see either as better than in most respects. Just evolved and admirable for different reasons.

 

 

And then there is “Sin-Kay-Vitch” or however he spells it phonetically. I think his best work has moved out of the “production art” aspects of OA where sequential panel story-telling is part of the art form. The result can be visually stunning but it won’t necessarily help the story.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Rick2you2

[Peter L]

On 8/13/2018 at 7:21 PM, fmaz said:

What a great discussion.

One thing that I think is sort of missed, is the way that time impacts all of this.  Because I think that, when you take a long view on art... you realize that ONLY craft will hold it’s value, except for extraordinarily important nostalgia.

What I mean is, that while now we look at a piece and we might talk about A,B,C and D level artists... when you go out 50 years... it might only be a handful of artists whose names still hold any real significance in the market. 

Similarly, now we value pages from key books, or key character moments .. but with the passing of time... all that will remain really will be the appearance on that page of key characters. What I mean is, right now if you have a page from Amazing Spider-Man, that book has value... but down the road, if Spidey isn’t featured on it... that page will not.  

And when it comes to minor characters, who are not really remembered at that point?  The pages will be evalued by the craft alone.  Do they tell a visually pleasing story?  Are they a good example of the genre? Etc.

For example, I have a Carmine Infantino page from his Nova run in my collection.  At some point in the future that will just be “super hero page”... and valued and evaluated as such.

My Ross Andru Amazing Spidey page will probably just be a Spider-Man page, and I wonder if my Andru Marvel Team-Up page will end up being valued in the same way... and their relative value will be based solely on the craft of each page.  

The reason I say these things is there’s precedent for it.  think of the great collected heroes of our parents (or grandparents) past... the Tom Mix, Lone Ranger, Roy Rogers, etc..  While some of the names still remain, the value of the collectibles doesn’t necessarily.  And while comic book heroes will still have their stories told even when comics are no longer published, its reasonable to assume the lack of comiics at some point will dramatically impact the evaluation of art in the marketplace relative, especially, to nostalgia.

 

 

 

I pretty much agree with this except I am more optimistic on the outlook.  What has changed the game is the evolution and success of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in crossover appeal to the cultural zeitgeist.  Disney and WB have made superhero films tentpoles that they are investing heavily in for their future revenue.  These large multimedia companies will leverage these IPs to make as much money as possible.  

There will probably be new Spider Man and other popular comic book movies until the end of time from DC and Marvel.  And since Disney is at least involved, it will be good and it will be profitable, and it will be at the parks, in merchandise, on a streaming service and gaming.  And it will all be on the cutting edge of whatever kids are interested in.

I went to a small comic con and saw prices on random issue of Simonson's Thor going up and I asked the dealer and he told me it is because this character featured is going to be in an upcoming movie.  He said more women are buying comics than ever before.  The stats on the San Diego Comic Con I believe show that women attendees outnumber men in the last year or two.  Eventually Disney will make a great Fantastic Four movie and then interest in the original greatness of Lee and Kirby's FF will increase.  If Nova is on the list for the Marvel Phase 4 movies, that Nova page may get a bump, especially if it crosses over into the kind of mainstream popularity we saw with Iron Man and Thor.  For the superhero art that falls into these major movie universes, I think the future looks bright.

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Peter L

[Rick2you2]

10 hours ago, Peter L said:

I pretty much agree with this except I am more optimistic on the outlook.  What has changed the game is the evolution and success of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in crossover appeal to the cultural zeitgeist. 

I think you should be a little less optimistic. The fads of fifty years ago, like Westerns, have basically died off. Its replacement, space opera like Star Wars, is actually showing signs of slowing down at the box office (yes, the numbers still seem huge, but Disney was expecting more, particularly from Solo). In 50 years, I expect people will figure out a way to do a lot of the stuff in the comics, or end up laughing at how absurd some of it is.

And don't count on craft mattering either. Great 19th century furniture has dropped in value, as have exceptional quality Persian rugs, for examples. Sometimes, the list price will stay where it is, but the piece just won't sell.  

Don't misunderstand: I love this stuff. But, I can't see it as being a long term investment vehicle (20+ years) no matter what is going on in the world. 

[Taylor G]

Spielberg has compared the current trend in superhero movies to musicals in the 1950s.

[buyatari]

If you look at some of the newer hobbies (like MTG artwork) you will find a higher concentration of millennial collectors. 

The rules there are a bit different and much like you describe.

[Panelfan1]

13 hours ago, Taylor G said:

Spielberg has compared the current trend in superhero movies to musicals in the 1950s.

Wholesome fun for the whole family?