Dealers / Rinse and Repeat model 7 7

[joeypost]

1 hour ago, FlyingDonut said:

Yes, but in 1981.

If by setting up you mean putting a few short boxes on a table, then yes. 

[zosocane]

This is a great thread.  I have no issue with dealers doing their lambada dance on Thursdays pre-con; it's a free market at work.  As someone posted earlier, if I want to be first in line to taste the choice meat, I can spend $800 on a table (just like the dealers do) and hunt for 'deal' books, which, after factoring in the cost to get there early, ain't such a good deal anymore. 

Over the years, you come to know which dealers grade fairly, price fairly/work with you on prices, and don't give you a dirty look when you ask to see a wall book. There are not that many dealers that consistently fit all 3 criteria.  I think my time is valuable, I think bargain finds in long boxes are much harder to come by as the hobby continues to boom, and as a result, I look at wall books pretty much exclusively when I go to shows.  Effectively, I let the dealer do the work and decide for me what are his best, say, 200 books on his wall.   I really like dealers that let me go into their 'space' and inspect wall books.  It's like being in the VIP room.  When a dealer let's me do that, and then -- as a bonus -- permits me to take the mylar'd books down on my own to give them a closer inspection, the chances of me dropping money with that dealer dramatically increase.  There is one dealer, not mentioned in this thread, who frankly seems annoyed when I ask to see/hold any of his wall books.  So I don't give him my business.  I'm sure he does fine without it.

Edited August 16, 2018 by zosocane

[Pirate]

On 8/15/2018 at 7:22 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

The guy from Aqualung....

guy who plays the original chewbacca

[kimik]

18 hours ago, zosocane said:

There is one dealer, not mentioned in this thread, who frankly seems annoyed when I ask to see/hold any of his wall books. 

Must be Greggy. I have heard a lot of things about him.........

Edited August 17, 2018 by kimik

[DR.X]

22 minutes ago, kimik said:

Must be Greggy. I have heard a lot of things about him.........

you haven't heard anything.

[Ken Aldred]

On 8/16/2018 at 12:22 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

The guy from Aqualung....

I found this quite confusing, as he looks nothing like Jacques Cousteau.

I know this because I enjoyed watching his Undersea World show, back when I was a kid. 

[lou_fine]

On 8/15/2018 at 3:47 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

On 8/15/2018 at 3:17 PM, HENRYSPENCER said:

 

 

That's the problem with exact identical twins..............you just can never tell them apart at all.  

[ADAMANTIUM]

10 hours ago, Ken Aldred said:

On 8/15/2018 at 6:22 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

The guy from Aqualung....

I found this quite confusing, as he looks nothing like Jacques Cousteau.

I know this because I enjoyed watching his Undersea World show, back when I was a kid. 

 It was an album cover. "You poor old sod.... you see it's only me."   

 

[VintageComics]

On 8/16/2018 at 2:53 PM, blazingbob said:

9).  Trade as payment is not Retail for Retail.  I am taking on YOUR expense/time of selling the book. 

This one is really hard for some people to understand.

For example, I can't count the number of times someone offers me a book at GPA high but they want to value my book at GPA low and yet are convinced they are doing me a favor.

Or they offer me a pile of 'junk' for one big book that I have for sale. I don't want to sell 100-200 'junk' books to recoup my cost in one of my books.

Finally, as a full time dealer, I expect a trade to be weighted in my favor because I now have to sell multiple books to make up for the one I am trading away.

If the trade deal is so great I wonder why they don't just sell their book and buy mine? I'd be willing to hold the book with a small deposit until you sell?

That's not to say everyone is like that but it does happen a LOT.

I know this is a little bit of a vent but for all the 'horrible dealer' stories out there, there are probably 10 times as many customer stories that dealers experience. We just don't share them all.

[CKinTO]

Really interesting thread. I am that mid-30s collector who was really into comics in the 90s, stopped for 15 years, and for past few years have been feverishly buying up slabbed high grade keys of what I loved as a kid. 

I buy floppies at my LCS on Weds, but mostly indies where I want to support the creator and I read a LOT digitally. 

I love the 1 day shows (still shop at cons, but mostly to get sigs), just a few points from customer perspective:

- definitely agree I favor developing relationships with dealers who are reasonable. I really appreciate the dealer who tries to leave a little meat on the bone for buyers to feel like we “got a deal”, rather than hold out for absolute top dollar. I will actively seek to buy books from those dealers over others because I want to keep supporting those like that with my money

- there are definitely dealers out there whose asking prices are way above market and I have to assume are looking for unaware buyers. After I explain my rationale for what I think is a fair and reasonable offer, if they’re not willing to budge, I politely move on. I get that in this market, dealers may feel someone will eventually come along and hit their price. They could be right, or could be wrong, but no need for either side to be anything less than civil

- I bring cash, and I understand that dealers have to make a little too (vs eg. part time ebay sellers). The relationship has value to me, as does being able to look at book in person, no shipping, etc. so I’m ok not getting absolute lowest cost on everything

[HENRYSPENCER]

53 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

This one is really hard for some people to understand.

For example, I can't count the number of times someone offers me a book at GPA high but they want to value my book at GPA low and yet are convinced they are doing me a favor.

Or they offer me a pile of 'junk' for one big book that I have for sale. I don't want to sell 100-200 'junk' books to recoup my cost in one of my books.

Finally, as a full time dealer, I expect a trade to be weighted in my favor because I now have to sell multiple books to make up for the one I am trading away.

If the trade deal is so great I wonder why they don't just sell their book and buy mine? I'd be willing to hold the book with a small deposit until you sell?

That's not to say everyone is like that but it does happen a LOT.

I know this is a little bit of a vent but for all the 'horrible dealer' stories out there, there are probably 10 times as many customer stories that dealers experience. We just don't share them all.

While there's always exceptions, for trades I’d pass unless the book was scarce or key (very liquidable).  If I took the trade it’d be something like 50% of current GPA otherwise it would be a no go.  You’re coming to me wanting me to help you acquire something you don't want to pay cash for.  

Now the exception to this is the big books when you are dealing with high rollers where cash is not king.  For some books, it takes a trade to acquire something extraordinary and rare.

[greggy]

Just bought 29 more sweet romance books from Bob's site.

You snooze, you lose.

xoxo

greggy

[RockMyAmadeus]

This thread is awesome. 

Dealing with collectors has always been about dealing with addicts. Almost all dealers understand this and exploit it.

I've spent, in my last ten years as a buyer, maybe $100,000 (very rough estimate.) 50% of that has been with Ed Robertson (robocard here on the boards), because he's not running a museum and the more I buy, the more he's willing to discount. It's really just as simple as that. The other 50% has been on eBay.

All the other dealers? I don't even waste my time. I tried to make a deal with that Canadian dealer, I guess George is his name, during setup at C2E2....he wasted a good hour of my time that I spent looking, and then had the nerve to complain that he had to "pull books out" that I then decided I wasn't going to buy. Sorry, buddy, but I get to look at the books AND reject them if I don't like them, WITHOUT you whining at me about having to do your job.

I was at the Phx show in May, and I found another seller...would not budge a cent on his sticker prices. I found a single book...a Cap Annual #8 that I think I can press to a 9.8....for $40. That was it. And if it doesn't get 9.8, it's a loss. All the rest? Wouldn't move a millimeter. 

I realize that it's a seller's market, and sellers should enjoy it while it lasts, and take full advantage of it as it does. So, I choose not to waste my time OR your time bothering to ask. I know that the market will cycle again, and things will loosen up, and my money will be more than welcome, as it was in the late 90s/00s. 

[namisgr]

On 8/16/2018 at 3:15 PM, slg343 said:

I am sure he is.  Doesn't change the fact that everything on that list can be solved with polite response. 

This seems to put all the onus in the dealer/customer relationships with the dealer.  There's a small minority of customers who we've seen and learned are either unreasonable, deceitful, or rude, and that doesn't even include the thieves, raw book mishandlers, and credit card cheats who cost dealers money, time, and goodwill.  Polite responses won't cure what ails some customers.

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by namisgr
grammar!

[namisgr]

On 8/16/2018 at 5:13 PM, valiantman said:

According to bob's earlier quote, he is a fan of conventions that promote through cuddling.

What happens after a show stays at the show.

[namisgr]

Back to the topic of 'rinse and repeat':

The oldest and most successful model for making money in the hobby was once based on buying and holding.  If you bought desirable books before the advent of CGC you've seen most of them appreciate markedly in value since then.  Some have gone up in value a bunch just within the last 10 years.  Unfortunately, with prices having increased so much, pressing becoming as common as dirt, and so many people having entered the hobby with making money as a motivation, the tried and true buy and hold approach has lost favor to the quick turnover of rinse and repeat.  Still, there remain opportunities in Silver and newer ages to own comics whose major price appreciation still lies perhaps 5, 10, or more years in the future, although these aren't nearly as plentiful as they used to be.

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by namisgr

[DR.X]

6 hours ago, greggy said:

Just bought 29 more sweet romance books from Bob's site.

 

greggy

I don't remember anyone asking you, Dork.

[valiantman]

1 hour ago, namisgr said:

Back to the topic of 'rinse and repeat':

The oldest and most successful model for making money in the hobby was once based on buying and holding.  If you bought desirable books before the advent of CGC you've seen most of them appreciate markedly in value since then. 

The caveat is that many buyers before CGC bought trimmed, color-touched, or otherwise altered books without knowing it.  Some believe that an unrestored book sold to them as NM would be 9.4 if they had it graded.  It might be 8.5.  How many first-time CGC submitters get a rude awakening?  All those decades of pre-CGC raw high grade universal keys... may not be. There's absolutely a reason that some (not all) dealers refuse to use CGC.  It's because they would lose money.  Overgrading (and manipulating) raw books has always been the most profitable model. It took CGC's arrival to stop/slow some of the worst offenders.

[DanCooper]

1 hour ago, namisgr said:

The oldest and most successful model for making money in the hobby was once based on buying and holding.

This. This was and still remains the most successful way to ensure a profit when it comes time to sell. Whether it be in comics or the stock market.

It is one of the aspects that the "Big Money Fish", who have always entered the hobby and then left, failed to understand. Both yesterday and today. The faces have changed over time, but these "investors" always lacked patience and wanted a fast return on their money. They have evolved, on a larger scale size-wise, to the current day flippers.

You were always paying guide or over guide to obtain quality material. Yes, there were always "bargains" that slipped through the cracks, but the foundation of prime stuff in one's collection was most likely bought at over market/guide at time of purchase. You always had faith that the Overstreet guide and market would eventually catch up with your purchase price. But, again, it was a long-term thing.

There is a ton of quality stuff on dealer and auction sites available today that one will have to pay over guide and market to obtain. But in 2023 or 2028 or beyond, the odds are purchase price today will look like a bargain then. People will be always be posting examples, on these same boards in the future, of items available today that "I wished I pulled the trigger on that" in the future.

The main thing always (besides patience) is what has been uttered countless times on these boards and other places as the sole reason for a purchase - buy the best quality you can afford and the book because you like it. The return on it, in the future, will come naturally.

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

This market, and the way it behaves, is entirely unprecedented. The comic market...from its tiny foundations in the early 60s to today...has never seen this type of market before. 

I've often remarked on the fact that, while the "traditional keys" were always priced high, at least the surrounding issues weren't. Even the "traditional keys" were relatively cheap in lower grade. That's no longer the case. Now, you have secondary books like Detective Comics #168....hardly a "mega key" in times past....is now, in every grade, unobtainable by the average collector, becoming a four and five figure book...in some cases, the entire annual salary of an entry-level employee. And it's hardly alone.

And Valiantman's example, showing that the best "investment" in the last few years would have been a bunch of 4.0 Hulk #181s signals the end of the cheap lower grade "mega key."

Where is all this money coming from? No longer are we in a "John Jay Pittman" market, where buyers of fairly modest means, middle to upper middle class, steadily put together a collection, piece by piece, that they then keep intact for the rest of their lives. Now we're in the "Jay Parrino" market, where people with lots of money buy books at a rapid pace, flip them at a rapid pace, and throw dizzying amounts of money into the market.

This took a long time in coins...essentially, from the 30s and 40s until about the late 80s...and its no fluke that that coincided with the advent of slabbing. There have been crashes here and there, but for the most part, now even "common", average, non-key coins can set you back five figures. The first "million dollar coin" wasn't sold until 1996. Since then, however, hundreds of coins have sold for over a million dollars, with hundreds more...if not thousands...in 6 figures. 

What's more is that these ultra valuable coins aren't going to collectors...they're being bought by dealers. Laura Sperber of Legend Numismatics and her partner, John Morelan, just bought back the Eliasberg 1913 Liberty Nickel for $4.56 (which was the aforementioned first $1,000,000+ coin sold in 1996.) They already owned it previously. And that's not the only case of dealers selling to dealers. The line between "collector" and "dealer" has become quite fuzzy as well. 

Why is this happening? Lots of reasons; more people in "emerging markets" (aka "most of the world") with more money than they've had. The "usual suspects" of investors awash in dough, wanting to park their cash into tangible assets. 

In other words...the comics market...and many collectibles markets...is being flooded with cash by people who aren't *really* collectors. And, of course, the advent of slabbing has made this much, much more possible. There are millionaires and perhaps billionaires who are in the comics market, the likes of whom would never have considered buying these things 20 years ago. 

But, here they are, and so if you want it, you're competing with a lot of people who are almost certainly far wealthier than you. And they're not interested in building collections. They're interested in returns on their investment. That's a tremendous psychological difference.

As long as this money holds up, regardless of why...then the gravy will keep flowing, in all directions. Books that were in the dollar bin 15 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, a year ago, can now sell for hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars in very high grade (Ms. Marvel #1 and Black Panther #1 in 9.8, for example.) Eternals #1 goes from being a $5-$10 book a year ago to a $750+ book in 9.8, and several hundred dollars for several grades below that. Hulk #181 becomes a four figure book in ANY grade. A 1988 comic....ASM #300...routinely sells for lower four figures in 9.8. When that book was new, there was NOTHING that was 30 years old at the time selling for those amounts, except at the very highest grades (Showcase #4, AF #15, FF #1), and very few people had access to those books. Even accounting for inflation and the almost inconceivable differences in how the comic collector market existed between 1956 and 1988, the rate of increase is staggering....and that's comparing the bluest of the blue chip Silver Age keys, with perhaps 10% of their initial distribution surviving, with the 300th issue of Amazing Spiderman, with perhaps 90-95% of its initial distribution surviving. It boggles the mind.

This is unprecedented, uncharted water. I guess we'll see where it takes us.