Why did the Copper Age last such a short time? 0

[DavidTheDavid]

I'm curious why the Copper Age lasted such a short time. In the article "Comic Book Ages: Defining Eras" found in The Overstreet Guide to Grading Comics (Nov. 2014 ed.), Dr. Arnold T Blumbery and J.C. Vaughn write that the advent of Image Comics ended the Copper Age. Was that the sole factor? Were there editorial shifts, changes in the retail environment, or anything else that contributed to such the CA's brief period?

[divad]

Because it didn't. Many of us disagree with both the assigned start and end of the period. (See multiple other threads.) For example, some of us see Frank Miller's work on Daredevil and Denny O'Neil becoming the editor at Marvel as the start of the CA (specifically issue #168 in January 1981, when Miller took over as both writer and artist.) On the end point, some hold the Death of Superman as the end of the CA. Personally, I think that's arbitrary and convenient.

But the start of Image Comics was similar to the change in film studios when United Artists began under Charlie Chaplin, "The inmates are taking over the asylum." McFarlane and others did more or less the same thing at Image and for essentially the same reasons. Still that makes the CA an 11-year span, which comparatively is not "short."

The only aspect that makes the CA seem "short" is the seeming reluctance and apprehension of breaking up the current 26-year period referred to as the "Modern Age."

Coincidentally, see D ick O.'s  Post here.

While Digital Age may be a good suggestion, we might even consider the "Plastic Age" starting with the advent of CGC, and the soon to be antiquated commercial practice of creating a trading commodity enclosed in plastic. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by divad

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Comic ages are pretty much defined after the fact. Arguably, the only two points that pretty much everyone would agree with is that Action Comics #1 started the Golden Age, and Showcase 4 started the Silver Age. That said, there were still plenty of comics post-Action 1 that are more characteristic of the Platinum Age, and plenty of comics post-Showcase 4 that are more characteristic of the Golden Age than the Silver Age. The beginnings and ends of other ages are more a fade than an abrupt transition, characterized by a number of changes in the industry and in the content of comics.

I think that one of the catalysts for the Copper Age is in the '70s (the DC implosion), as it got the ball rolling on a number of things that were definitively Copper Age. And it lasts, I think, until Marvel rebooted a lot of its long-running titles in the late '90s.

[PeterPark]

4 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Comic ages are pretty much defined after the fact. Arguably, the only two points that pretty much everyone would agree with is that Action Comics #1 started the Golden Age, and Showcase 4 started the Silver Age. That said, there were still plenty of comics post-Action 1 that are more characteristic of the Platinum Age, and plenty of comics post-Showcase 4 that are more characteristic of the Golden Age than the Silver Age. The beginnings and ends of other ages are more a fade than an abrupt transition, characterized by a number of changes in the industry and in the content of comics.

I think that one of the catalysts for the Copper Age is in the '70s (the DC implosion), as it got the ball rolling on a number of things that were definitively Copper Age. And it lasts, I think, until Marvel rebooted a lot of its long-running titles in the late '90s.

I think the comics code ended the Golden Age...and Showcase 4 was the most important result of it's introduction. The rest of the changes in ages are gradual and occur differently among different publishers and even among different titles in the same publisher. I think Marvel carried on in a very similar way in the modern age as it did in the copper age meaning the modern age didn't change them right away, in spite of losing so much talent.

[Lonzilla]

The Bronze Age was only a few years shorter, beginning with Conan #1 or Green Lantern #76, depends on your book preference, and ending with the direct market explosion. The mega crossover events like Secret Wars started Copper Age IMO.

[DavidTheDavid]

3 hours ago, Lonzilla said:

The Bronze Age was only a few years shorter, beginning with Conan #1 or Green Lantern #76, depends on your book preference, and ending with the direct market explosion. The mega crossover events like Secret Wars started Copper Age IMO.

That's what I've read: Secret Wars was the kickoff.

[Martin Sinescu]

17 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Comic ages are pretty much defined after the fact. Arguably, the only two points that pretty much everyone would agree with is that Action Comics #1 started the Golden Age, and Showcase 4 started the Silver Age. That said, there were still plenty of comics post-Action 1 that are more characteristic of the Platinum Age, and plenty of comics post-Showcase 4 that are more characteristic of the Golden Age than the Silver Age. The beginnings and ends of other ages are more a fade than an abrupt transition, characterized by a number of changes in the industry and in the content of comics.

I think that one of the catalysts for the Copper Age is in the '70s (the DC implosion), as it got the ball rolling on a number of things that were definitively Copper Age. And it lasts, I think, until Marvel rebooted a lot of its long-running titles in the late '90s.

Yes, 100% agree on the post-Implosion marker, which is why when I see TMNT #1 in 1984 as the beginning of the Copper Age I'm like WTF  DC is tricky, too, because you get the COIE reboot in the middle of the decade, so some people want to make that the start of the Copper Age  but I definitely think there was an earlier shift with the Implosion. It's a mess. I'm definitely in the '80/'81 camp for DC and Marvel (as Divad pointed out, I think the Miller run on DD is pretty Copper and it's also very close to the end of Byrne's hallowed run on X-Men). The New Teen Titans over at DC are, to me, another early landmark of the era. There's a list of markers throughout the period somewhere here on the boards which helps to show how many incremental changes there were throughout the era. I definitely look at Image starting as one of the early signs of a new era, but definitely not the hard cutoff. I do think that the Death of Supes and Knightfall are two other major arcs that are the bookend for Copper.

[zosocane]

52 minutes ago, Martin Sinescu said:

Yes, 100% agree on the post-Implosion marker, which is why when I see TMNT #1 in 1984 as the beginning of the Copper Age I'm like WTF  I'm definitely in the '80/'81 camp for DC and Marvel (as Divad pointed out, I think the Miller run on DD is pretty Copper and it's also very close to the end of Byrne's hallowed run on X-Men). The New Teen Titans over at DC are, to me, another early landmark of the era. There's a list of markers throughout the period somewhere here on the boards which helps to show how many incremental changes there were throughout the era. 

This is spot on.  There is no hard-and-fast start date for the Copper Age, but any teen with a heavy pull list from the late-70s to the mid-80s will tell you that big 2 and the new independents starting in 1980/1981 were coming out with some really good material, and that train of new creativity kept gaining speed in 1982, 1983, 1984 and beyond.  It was a night-and-day difference from the relatively low quality material we were reading in the '77, '78  and '79 time period when it seemed the Bronze Age was losing steam, especially at DC.  1980 and the years that followed it brought us amazing new comics: 

1. Claremont/Byrne's rejunvenated X-Men (X-Men 129 1st Kitty Pryde and Dark Phoenix story begins (1/80)),
2. Wolfman-Perez's ground-breaking New Teen Titans (#1 11/80),
3. Miller's taking over as writer on Daredevil (#168 1st Miller -script on DD 1/81),
4. Byrne's magnificent run on the FF (#232 7/81),
5. The release of the first Marvel graphic novels:  the Death of Captain Marvel and the New Mutants (both 1982),
6. Frank Miller's Ronin mini-series (7/83),
7. Walt Simonson's new look Thor and Beta Ray Bill (#337 11/83),
8. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing (SS #20 1/84), and
9. while all of the above was going on, the onslaught of cutting-edge product being pumped out from 1982 forward from the independent publishers (Pacific, First (Starslayer, Rocketeer), Eclipse, Eagle (Judge Dredd), etc.) -- TMNT #1 fits right here. 

The release of TMNT #1 in 1984 or Secret Wars #1 in 1984 didn't mark any new, fresh approaches; they were carrying forward the new approaches we began to see around 1980/1981.  In sum, there is no specific issue that kicked off the Copper Age, but, instead, it was more of an explosion of excellent story-telling coming out around the same time over a five-year period.  For that reason, I would say Copper Age started in 1980.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's important not to forget that the Turtles...no matter how unique and ground-breaking they were...were neither the first "funny animal B&W", nor are they entirely original.

They are a parody, specifically of Miller, more specifically of Ronin,

The cover to TMNT #1 is a direct swipe of Ronin #1.

While the Turtles became something far greater than Eastman and Laird could have ever dreamed, they weren't necessarily original....which is a hallmark of the Copper Age.

"What...? There was all SORTS of original stuff in the Copper Age! RMA, you cray cray!"

No doubt, but..the greatness of the Copper Age was built on taking what previous ages had done and developing them to their fullest potential. 

Don't believe me...?

Who is heralded as the greatest writer of the Copper Age?

If you say anyone other than Alan Moore, you're wrong.

And Alan Moore's greatest work in the era....Swamp Thing, Miracleman, Killing Joke, Watchmen...all built on characters and concepts that had been created by others.

New Teen Titans? Sure, half the team was new, but the other half was from the Silver Age. 

Did Frank Miller create something new, or did he create masterpieces built on what others had created? DD and Dark Knight, both old characters. His original stuff? Ronin was a flop. Sin City is great, admittedly, but Miller will be remembered for the work he did on other people's creations...and rightfully so.

Both Secret Wars, and Crisis that followed it, while being innovative for being the first "company-wide crossovers", thematically dealt with old characters and concepts, particularly Crisis, which sought to bring together and streamline the cumbersome DCU. Animal Man, Sandman, Shadow, Fury vs. Shield, Wolvie, Punisher, many of the books and series that connected with readers and collectors were new twists on old characters...or, rather, old characters whose dormant potential was finally realized.

It's like Haydn, and more specifically, Mozart. Mozart and Haydn didn't innovate anything particularly new...that fell to Beethoven 10-20 years later...but they took what had been developed by Bach, Handel, and Scarlatti, among others, and perfected it.

So, while the 80s and 90s produced some great innovations in the artform, the stuff that is remembered, the stuff that made an impact, that defined the age, is the perfection of characters and concepts that were built by others.

So, if you take that, and apply that principle to whatever work is being discussed, what is "Copper" and what is not becomes, I think, quite a bit clearer.

[Jeffro.]

This is why we need a transitional age between bronze and copper. Cronze baby!!

Edited August 21, 2018 by Jerkfro

[Martin Sinescu]

2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It's important not to forget that the Turtles...no matter how unique and ground-breaking they were...were neither the first "funny animal B&W", nor are they entirely original.

They are a parody, specifically of Miller, more specifically of Ronin,

The cover to TMNT #1 is a direct swipe of Ronin #1.

While the Turtles became something far greater than Eastman and Laird could have ever dreamed, they weren't necessarily original....which is a hallmark of the Copper Age.

"What...? There was all SORTS of original stuff in the Copper Age! RMA, you cray cray!"

No doubt, but..the greatness of the Copper Age was built on taking what previous ages had done and developing them to their fullest potential. 

Don't believe me...?

Who is heralded as the greatest writer of the Copper Age?

If you say anyone other than Alan Moore, you're wrong.

And Alan Moore's greatest work in the era....Swamp Thing, Miracleman, Killing Joke, Watchmen...all built on characters and concepts that had been created by others.

New Teen Titans? Sure, half the team was new, but the other half was from the Silver Age. 

Did Frank Miller create something new, or did he create masterpieces built on what others had created? DD and Dark Knight, both old characters. His original stuff? Ronin was a flop. Sin City is great, admittedly, but Miller will be remembered for the work he did on other people's creations...and rightfully so.

Both Secret Wars, and Crisis that followed it, while being innovative for being the first "company-wide crossovers", thematically dealt with old characters and concepts, particularly Crisis, which sought to bring together and streamline the cumbersome DCU. Animal Man, Sandman, Shadow, Fury vs. Shield, Wolvie, Punisher, many of the books and series that connected with readers and collectors were new twists on old characters...or, rather, old characters whose dormant potential was finally realized.

It's like Haydn, and more specifically, Mozart. Mozart and Haydn didn't innovate anything particularly new...that fell to Beethoven 10-20 years later...but they took what had been developed by Bach, Handel, and Scarlatti, among others, and perfected it.

So, while the 80s and 90s produced some great innovations in the artform, the stuff that is remembered, the stuff that made an impact, that defined the age, is the perfection of characters and concepts that were built by others.

So, if you take that, and apply that principle to whatever work is being discussed, what is "Copper" and what is not becomes, I think, quite a bit clearer.

Many great points. Adding depth by humanizing or weakening the indestructible super-hero was one of the things Moore and Miller did so well. "Touchable", to borrow from a scene in The Untouchables. I wouldn't say it's necessarily developing them to their fullest potential or perfecting the characters (I would imagine some faithful readers of these characters probably were more attached to the lighter, safer storytelling of previous years when heroes were just heroes), but having a frail, flawed character elevated the stories through a pathos never achieved in previous ages. It paved the way for more powerful, emotional storytelling whereas previous eras tended to be more one-dimensional. Stories like Kraven's Last Hunt and Death in the Family pushed the envelope still further, which is why I think Knightfall and Death of Superman make good bookends for the era: They really seemed like the ultimate realization of the era of weakened warriors (*rimshot*), even if the stories themselves were cheaper, gaudier versions which lacked any of the emotional punch or nuance of Elektra's death, Terra's betrayal or the crippling of Barbara Gordon.

By extension, I'd also suggest that the challenging of the status quo of the characters themselves also carried over to McFarlane, Lee, Liefeld and Co. creating Image as an alternative "haven" for creators. Independents thrived (or were ubiquitous, at least) in the Copper Era, but the top talent of the day walking away from BOTH DC and Marvel was the ultimate challenge. Previously creators just went from one company to the other if they weren't happy where they were. This affront really was a slap in the face of the Big Two.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

2 hours ago, Jerkfro said:

This why we need a transitional age between bronze and copper. Cronze baby!!

We just need to understand that there's a cusp for every age.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

10 hours ago, DavidTheDavid said:

That's what I've read: Secret Wars was the kickoff.

More recently people say that, but there's plenty of stuff that is more Copper before that. The reason I pointed out the DC implosion is not because I think that's the beginning of the age, but it was a catalyst for the age. The implosion resulted in the departure of Larry Hama and Archie Goodwin (and others) from DC, and landed them at Marvel, Without them, we might not have had Epic Comics or G.I. Joe, which I think are Copper rather than Bronze. Marvel's first mini-series, Contest of Champions, might be a better point of reference than Secret Wars. Pretty much all minis are Copper. Before that, a 4-issue series just meant it was a failure. New Teen Titans? Copper. Marvel Graphic Novels? Copper. I would say that the Bronze Age lasted at DC longer, although some books for sure (such as NTT) were certainly Copper. Claremont/Byrne X-Men after the Dark Phoenix storyline might be more of a transition between Bronze and Copper.

[Von Cichlid]

For some odd reason, I will always put the start of the Copper Age at the point when Marvel put the Spidey head in the upc box and the Modern Age at the point when Marvel ceased to put pictures in the upc box and instead went with the barcode / "direct edition" format.    

[RockMyAmadeus]

11 hours ago, Martin Sinescu said:

 I wouldn't say it's necessarily developing them to their fullest potential or perfecting the characters

Neither would I. For clarity's sake, I was referring to the perfection of the artform, not the characters themselves. 

Edit: for further clarity, when I say:

Quote

the perfection of characters and concepts that were built by others.

I don't mean making Superman "perfect." I mean what you have said, making them more like real people, with real issues that really need to be dealt with, and which oftentimes cannot, which is where the tension of any great story comes from. Stan did this with Spidey, but during the 60s, Peter's problems were always eventually resolved in a positive way. It wasn't until very late in Stan's tenure that he even considered doing real-life stories, with real life impact, like the death of Capt. Stacy in ASM #90, and of course, the drug issues of #96-98.

Edited August 21, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[jsilverjanet]

11 hours ago, Jerkfro said:

This why we need a transitional age between bronze and copper. Cronze baby!!

moving forward all my ebay listing that fall during this period will have the term Cronze. Please trademark it ASAP.

*if I have enough characters left in the listing title, it will say Cronze Baby!!!

Edited August 21, 2018 by jsilverjanet

[Jeffro.]

8 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

11 hours ago, Jerkfro said:

This why we need a transitional age between bronze and copper. Cronze baby!!

We just need to understand that there's a cusp for every age.

yeah but where's the cusp of bronze and copper?

#TEAMCRONZE

Edited August 21, 2018 by Jerkfro

[sfcityduck]

Let's face it, the "Ages" concept lost its utility long ago, outliving the original purpose of its creators.  The concept was perverted by dealers for use as a marketing tool, and has even outlived that purpose.  These days, we're all better off just using decades or real world time period markers (pre-War, pre-Code, etc.) to describe comics, not "Ages" as the concept doesn't really work for any time period.

[sfcityduck]

On 8/19/2018 at 9:54 PM, PeterPark said:

I think the comics code ended the Golden Age...and Showcase 4 was the most important result of it's introduction. 

This is revisionist thinking.  The creators of the terms "Golden Age" and "Silver Age" were solely focused on superhero comics, and really only DC superheros.  The Golden Age of Superheros commenced with Action 1 because Superman was deemed the first superhero.  Showcase 4 was deemed to start the second great age of superheros because it was the book with the first reboot of a Golden Age DC superhero.  Worth noting that superheros never went away in the 1950s, and there were both revivals (including of Capt. America, Submariner and Human Torch) and new superheros created in the 1950s before Flash.  But, Showcase 4 became a demarcation point because the guys who penned the terms were mainly DC collectors.  

For all other genres, Action 1 and Showcase 4 make zero sense as a demarcation point.  I agree that pre-Code and post-Code are far more relevant to a number of non-superhero genres, but not all.  Which is why the quest for omnibus terms is really a joke.  I think collectors are focused on the terms because they crave organisational schemes and selling points.

Edited August 22, 2018 by sfcityduck

[ComicConnoisseur]

On 8/19/2018 at 3:06 PM, DavidTheDavid said:

I'm curious why the Copper Age lasted such a short time.

I am curious as to why the modern age has lasted such a long time? Besting golden age, silver age, bronze age and copper age for longevity. It's like most comic historians quit telling the story of the history of comics sometime between 1990s over printed dreck and Marvel's bankruptcy.

Modern Age is over 20 years old going on 30.

 

Edited August 23, 2018 by ComicConnoisseur