PGM FF2 ***Grade is in *** 1 1

[davet75]

1 hour ago, thunsicker said:

From my collection:

Thanks Thunsicker! That makes 2 examples already where CGC does not follow strict Overstreet grading guidelines and technical standards.  It's useful for everyone to know this before making a decision to submit your books!  

[DR.X]

I've seen slabbed 4.5's with a 1/2 x 1 inch corner missing off the cover, and worse. Just saying.

Edited August 21, 2018 by DR.X

[The Lions Den]

12 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

And a shout out to LionsDen here because he pointed something out to me that would have escaped my notice because the book is missing a piece and I never would have thought to look for it.

Thanks JJ! 

[Gnasher]

13 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

 

The idea of this is further reinforced by what looks to me like black color touch on the crease in the gray area on the right bottom that suddenly disappears as it intersects the black area, a major tell for color touch. Again, why? On a book that wouldn't be improved by it, I can't imagine, but by far no stranger than many other seemingly illogical acts I've seen conducted on comics. I'm 60/40 on the color touch on the 2.

 

 

Could this not be determined now with just a photo of the interior cover?

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Could this not be determined now with just a photo of the interior cover?

It could, but not always. It depends on if the applied color touch soaked into the rift in the paper; how porous the paper there is and how subject to bleeding the ink is. If it's acrylic, it won't bleed in unless it was in a "too watery" state. Just the same as measuring with a ruler or comparing sizes isn't a definitive means of determining trim, bleed through won't always occur with color touch.

You very rarely see gray areas with color touched creases. Why? Because it's super obvious. The grays on these early Marvels are dot patterned and applying gray ink or paint makes the work overt even from a distance. But a common tell, as seen here, would be a color breaking crease, severe enough as this is, in that gray area, that suddenly ends at the precise start of the black area, a spot where you would expect that crease in the gray to continue into the black; and it doesn't. That's a major tell for someone looking for c.t.. Here, it's use would be to diminish the length of that crease by a bit, though again, I can't imagine that would mollify the rest of the cover defects and improve the overall outlook.

Edited August 22, 2018 by James J Johnson

[Not A Clone]

15 hours ago, thunsicker said:

From my collection:

That's a GA bump  Nice book!

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

It could, but not always. It depends on if the applied color touch soaked into the rift in the paper; how porous the paper there is and how subject to bleeding the ink is. If it's acrylic, it won't bleed in unless it was in a "too watery" state. Just the same as measuring with a ruler or comparing sizes isn't a definitive means of determining trim, bleed through won't always occur with color touch.

You very rarely see gray areas with color touched creases. Why? Because it's super obvious. The grays on these early Marvels are dot patterned and applying gray ink or paint makes the work overt even from a distance. But a common tell, as seen here, would be a color breaking crease, severe enough as this is, in that gray area, that suddenly ends at the precise start of the black area, a spot where you would expect that crease in the gray to continue into the black; and it doesn't. That's a major tell for someone looking for c.t.. Here, it's use would be to diminish the length of that crease by a bit, though again, I can't imagine that would mollify the rest of the cover defects and improve the overall outlook.

That information is appreciated James. CT is one of the areas I have most difficulty in picking up when grading online in a two dimensional format. To my knowledge I've never come across an example in situ, which would probably make for easier detection and understanding of the means people use to cover a fault in this way. So thanks for that.

My only suggestion of why a CT has been employed in this case, if that is what it is, is as a trial run/attempt to see how it would turn out and then been decided against. 

[James J Johnson]

4 hours ago, Gnasher said:

My only suggestion of why a CT has been employed in this case, if that is what it is, is as a trial run/attempt to see how it would turn out and then been decided against. 

Oh, I agree. I've seen books with 100 spine color breaks and only one or two of them color touched! In those cases, typically, they bleed through, so maybe those are examples of instances where someone dabs the ink on, looks from the other side and seeing the bleed, wisely stops. But the damage is done, and now, unless excised, the book is "restored".

I've seen cases where there isn't any bleed, but only50 of those 100 breaks are color touched and none of them bled, just shoddy work.

This 2 may be a case where that black area is the first spot color touch was applied and then that idea abandoned when they realized, "Hmmm. a gray area. It's not ink. It's not paint. How do I cover that? With a pencil, maybe? Then realizing that's not going to go well abandon further color touch. Now since that's the only tell I detect for c.t. on the 2, that may very well be the case of that being the first and only area addressed.

[Primetime]

On 8/21/2018 at 10:01 AM, Dark Knight said:

5.0 for me. Im digging the date stamps too! Both books definitely worth grading to make sure everything is 100% original also.

I’m at a 4.0 but I tend to be strict. It won’t surprise me if cgc grades it higher. The full date stamp is always a great site in a comic cover. 

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, Primetime said:

I’m at a 4.0 but I tend to be strict. It won’t surprise me if cgc grades it higher. The full date stamp is always a great site in a comic cover. 

+1. That's the technical grade, as is, and like you said, everbody's having a good day, the sun is shining, a 4.5 wouldn't be a surprise.

[ned]

[The Lions Den]

6 hours ago, ned said:

You're a winner on this one...Happy New Year!

[Stingrayiii]

Nice!!!!

[JollyComics]

Holy craps!

[Ahsoka Tano Jedi Apprentice]

i can't believe it.

[ned]

On 12/29/2018 at 9:55 PM, The Lions Den said:

You're a winner on this one...Happy New Year!

Thanks, I think so too. Especially after your back and forth with @James J Johnson, you guys had me starting to worry.

[Bomber-Bob]

This is why many assume CGC ignores Marvel chipping, they are simply tolerant of missing pieces. If that was a stain, they probably would have given it a 4.5 .  Due to the fact that the missing piece extends into the pages, I don't understand this grade at all. Sorry.

[The Lions Den]

5 hours ago, ned said:

Thanks, I think so too. Especially after your back and forth with @James J Johnson, you guys had me starting to worry.

I apologize for any worries I may have caused. The bottom line is that you received a Universal label and a generous grade on the book---it's a win-win!  

[davet75]

3 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

This is why many assume CGC ignores Marvel chipping, they are simply tolerant of missing pieces. If that was a stain, they probably would have given it a 4.5 .  Due to the fact that the missing piece extends into the pages, I don't understand this grade at all. Sorry.

Congratulations Ned! 

I do agree with Bob in that if the book had been complete with a comparable sized dark stain that leaked through to the additional pages, it would have been given a 4.5.  Instead, bugs chew out the same areas completely and it gets a 5.5.  Wonky grading standards from CGC, but that's the nature of the game and cheers to Ned for completing the story for us here! 

[Bomber-Bob]

2 hours ago, davet75 said:

Congratulations Ned! 

I do agree with Bob in that if the book had been complete with a comparable sized dark stain that leaked through to the additional pages, it would have been given a 4.5.  Instead, bugs chew out the same areas completely and it gets a 5.5.  Wonky grading standards from CGC, but that's the nature of the game and cheers to Ned for completing the story for us here! 

Yes, kudos to Ned for getting back to us with the grade. I hope Ned realizes any comment I make about the book is no reflection on him. He got a really good grade and nobody can take it away from him. Here's what scares me about some of the loose grading by CGC lately. The valuation on these Vintage books is at an all time high. As a buyer, I want to get my money's worth. I don't want to pay premium prices for overgraded books. I am concerned. I don't think this grade is a one off.