Ditko's estate... 6 6

[Bird]

3 hours ago, justafan said:

Even if he had gotten it from Marvel I'm not sure he would have accepted it. He just didn't seem to want it or care for it that much.

Oh he cared all right. He didn't believe in applying rights retroactively regarding art ownership and such but he apparently believed early on that he was not granted the appropriate creator compensation from Marvel. Everything that comes later starts from this perception. Add in a startlingly principled man and you get the story of Steve Ditko.

[NoMan]

52 minutes ago, Bird said:

Oh he cared all right. He didn't believe in applying rights retroactively regarding art ownership and such but he apparently believed early on that he was not granted the appropriate creator compensation from Marvel. Everything that comes later starts from this perception. Add in a startlingly principled man and you get the story of Steve Ditko.

yeah i'd have to agree with this. this is my perception of him/his situation 

[STORMSHADOW_80]

But did Lee, Ditko, or Kirby actually come up with Spider-Man? Here's a pretty interesting read I found 1954 Spider-Man Costume as I remember a boardie posting a pic of the costume a couple years ago.

 

[Unca Ben]

I’m as much a fan of Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby as anybody.
But when it comes to extra compensation for their work just because they are beloved creators of some of our favorite books, they need not be treated differently than anyone else.  They were employed as work-for-hire just like millions of other folks.  The company owns the copyright and the results of their labors.  If the company makes one dollar or a trillion dollars, the worker deserves their agreed upon wage and nothing more.

I can only compare Ditko and Kirby's situation to the industry I know; electronics.

There have been thousands upon thousands of men and women responsible for some great achievements in the electronic engineering field; from laser jet printers, data storage, and multi-core integrated circuits, to technological advancements in applied materials and fabrication process, to products like GPS and ultrasound and MRI diagnostics –  just to scratch the tip of the iceberg and name but a few innovations.

Those products have made billions – no, trillions and trillions – of dollars in corporate profits, and other than some engineering department heads (think Stan Lee) most of the engineers worked for their salary (and maybe some stock options and bonuses) and none became mega-rich from their endeavors.  Guys like Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak and Elon Musk may be well known (and they started their own companies) but there are literally thousands upon thousands of other folks equally responsible for those innovations that for the most part have changed and enriched our lives.

Spider-Man?  The FF?  How about non-intrusive medical diagnostics – MRI’s for detecting tumors and brain injuries, ultrasound for prenatal care and arterial blockages.   These two medical advancements alone have replaced countless intrusive surgical procedures that folks used to have to endure.  What’s more important, really? (For sure not Spidey, as much as I love ‘em).

All those engineers and techs did not get compensated in the way that some folks call for Ditko and Kirby to get compensated.  They were all work-for-hire.  The company owned the patents and copyrights, with some exceptions such as engineers who developed IP on their own time using their own resources (think self-publishing creators).

Why should Marvel and DC be any different than Intel, Schlumberger, Cisco, or Siemens?  If these companies were called to compensate all the work-for-hire developers that were responsible for all those innovations in the same way some folks want Marvel to compensate Kirby and Ditko, we’d see a major reduction in technological advancements.  That’s why we have corporations, not thousands of individuals working on their own.  Efficiency.

If Ditko and Kirby wanted to be compensated like anything approaching the comic book industry owners, then they should have started their own company, risked their own finances, and managed their own futures.  Otherwise they only deserve their salary, just like everyone else.  They didn’t do anything special, in my opinion.  Not when you take emotion out of the equation and honestly look at it.  Other nameless folks in other industries have done far, far more.

 

Now things like the return of original art, or the reneging on promised bonuses and profit sharing for using characters they developed in things other than the comics – that may be another story.
(And I suspect the Kirby and Ditko estates have seen some compensation for the movies).  

Edited August 30, 2018 by Unca Ben

[tv horror]

4 hours ago, STORMSHADOW_80 said:

But did Lee, Ditko, or Kirby actually come up with Spider-Man? Here's a pretty interesting read I found 1954 Spider-Man Costume as I remember a boardie posting a pic of the costume a couple years ago.

 

I had heard that it was more The Spider serial that was the inspiration, although looking at that Ben Cooper costume I could be swayed.

 

[oakman29]

14 hours ago, 1Cool said:

The end of the story is crushing.  He died alone and was not found for days after death.  It sounded like he was reclusive enough to not want to around people at the end but for one of the comic book icons to go out like that is just sad

And let me tell you , decomposition process is not a pretty sight\smell .

[Buzzetta]

10 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

I’m as much a fan of Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby as anybody.
But when it comes to extra compensation for their work just because they are beloved creators of some of our favorite books, they need not be treated differently than anyone else.  They were employed as work-for-hire just like millions of other folks.  The company owns the copyright and the results of their labors.  If the company makes one dollar or a trillion dollars, the worker deserves their agreed upon wage and nothing more.

I can only compare Ditko and Kirby's situation to the industry I know; electronics.

There have been thousands upon thousands of men and women responsible for some great achievements in the electronic engineering field; from laser jet printers, data storage, and multi-core integrated circuits, to technological advancements in applied materials and fabrication process, to products like GPS and ultrasound and MRI diagnostics –  just to scratch the tip of the iceberg and name but a few innovations.

Those products have made billions – no, trillions and trillions – of dollars in corporate profits, and other than some engineering department heads (think Stan Lee) most of the engineers worked for their salary (and maybe some stock options and bonuses) and none became mega-rich from their endeavors.  Guys like Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak and Elon Musk may be well known (and they started their own companies) but there are literally thousands upon thousands of other folks equally responsible for those innovations that for the most part have changed and enriched our lives.

Spider-Man?  The FF?  How about non-intrusive medical diagnostics – MRI’s for detecting tumors and brain injuries, ultrasound for prenatal care and arterial blockages.   These two medical advancements alone have replaced countless intrusive surgical procedures that folks used to have to endure.  What’s more important, really? (For sure not Spidey, as much as I love ‘em).

All those engineers and techs did not get compensated in the way that some folks call for Ditko and Kirby to get compensated.  They were all work-for-hire.  The company owned the patents and copyrights, with some exceptions such as engineers who developed IP on their own time using their own resources (think self-publishing creators).

Why should Marvel and DC be any different than Intel, Schlumberger, Cisco, or Siemens?  If these companies were called to compensate all the work-for-hire developers that were responsible for all those innovations in the same way some folks want Marvel to compensate Kirby and Ditko, we’d see a major reduction in technological advancements.  That’s why we have corporations, not thousands of individuals working on their own.  Efficiency.

If Ditko and Kirby wanted to be compensated like anything approaching the comic book industry owners, then they should have started their own company, risked their own finances, and managed their own futures.  Otherwise they only deserve their salary, just like everyone else.  They didn’t do anything special, in my opinion.  Not when you take emotion out of the equation and honestly look at it.  Other nameless folks in other industries have done far, far more.

 

Now things like the return of original art, or the reneging on promised bonuses and profit sharing for using characters they developed in things other than the comics – that may be another story.
(And I suspect the Kirby and Ditko estates have seen some compensation for the movies).  

Well written post and this is lost upon a lot of the fan community.  Kirby and Ditko signed the contracts.  They knew what they were doing. If they found it that disagreeable or that horrendous then they could have done something else.  

[Buzzetta]

22 hours ago, 1Cool said:

The end of the story is crushing.  He died alone and was not found for days after death.  It sounded like he was reclusive enough to not want to around people at the end but for one of the comic book icons to go out like that is just sad

Most people die alone. Seriously.  It is far less common that someone dies surrounded by loved ones. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Buzzetta

[Spideydan]

17 hours ago, namisgr said:

According to the linked article from the New York Post, Ditko rented an apartment on West 51st street at ~$2K/month. 

 

Ditko died in his studio that was on W51 st. He has been a tenant in it since the 1970's, maybe that's why the rent was so cheap for nyc's times square.

[namisgr]

12 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

I’m as much a fan of Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby as anybody.
But when it comes to extra compensation for their work just because they are beloved creators of some of our favorite books, they need not be treated differently than anyone else.  They were employed as work-for-hire just like millions of other folks.  The company owns the copyright and the results of their labors.  If the company makes one dollar or a trillion dollars, the worker deserves their agreed upon wage and nothing more.

 Thanks for the cold but accurate reminder of talent compensation in business.  For the vast majority of scientists and engineers working in the corporate sector, contracts are signed at the start of employment that assign patent rights of any invention made during employment to the company, typically for a nominal fee like $1.  Companies can use a variety of incentives financial and otherwise to try to retain their best and most valuable talent, but inventors typically do not have ownership positions in their inventions.  In the academic setting, the talent typically does get a piece of the profits or sales realized from their inventions, but it's a small fraction of those sales, and once again salary bumps, title promotions, better working conditions, and the like are the main perks offered for retention.  One could draw an analogy between the scientist or engineer and the comic book writer in these regards.

For the comic artists of yesteryear, the real shame is their lack of ownership of their original art.  After all, it's not as if Marvel, DC, and the like profited massively from the original artwork well after it was published, but the creators certainly could have, and in retrospect deserved to do so.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by namisgr

[RCheli]

19 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

Even at $24K a year just for rent, Ditko and Snyder must have sold quite a lot of their self-published books every year in order to cover Steve's living expenses.  For me, it doesn't pass a sanity check.  But I'm not privy to all the information, so there's that.

I suspect that Ditko was getting decent royalty checks for his work that was being reprinted by Marvel, DC, and other companies. I don't believe he has refused payment for that. His Spider-Man and Dr. Strange stories have been constantly in print over the past few decades, and while it's not huge money and not anywhere near the rate one would get for new pages, it was something. 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Don't forget Social Security and Medicare. A pretty good return, considering the years of life and payout vs. the contribution.

[GoldCap]

22 hours ago, mattn792 said:

Try the decaf.

[Readcomix]

19 hours ago, justafan said:

It is up to us.  My son and his cousins all under 10 asked me the other day after reading ASM #7 (raw reader copy) to them during a bedtime sleepover who made that comic.  I introduced them to the co-creator/artist/writers Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby (they all knew who Stan Lee was already).  I explained how they collaborated on many superhero concepts, drew the art (not Stan Lee), and wrote the stories.  When my son asked if he could meet Mister Ditko and Mister Kirby at the next convention like he did when he met Stan Lee and got his autograph, I had to break the unfortunate news that Jack Kirby died over 20 years ago and Steve Ditko had recently passed as well.  He got a little upset and stated that we should have tried to meet them before they died.  It would be difficult getting into the reasons why that might not have been possible even when they were alive but I just left it that I wish I had and that the best way for us to honor them is to remember them and what they did through their works.  He seemed ok with that.  A week later, I was surprised when I heard my son and my younger daughter reference Mr. Ditko and Mr. Kirby when we were going to start reading issue #8. 

 

You raise such a good point. As collectors, we often recognize we steward the books for the next generation of collectors. We also steward the history.

If you're in the northeast, you probably have a shot at getting the kids to meet Joe Sinnott at a show. That would be a great experience for them; he's one of the nicest human beings on the planet and one of the few formative days Marvel guys left.

[500Club]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:16 AM, Mr bla bla said:

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:10 AM, Artboy99 said:

Re: art compensation comments.

I have long wondered why it matters who created the character.

I have worked as an artist for over 30 years. I once worked for a company that created costumes, character "logos" and mascots that represented companies. I was paid a wage for my creations and my art ( it is called work for hire). If some company took the character I created for them, and then marketed it and earned billions from doing so good for them. I don't really care what someone does with something they paid me for.

Did Mr. Ditko feel the same way? Perhaps...

I think Mr. A will eventually get his time in the sunshine ...

what a ferocious dude ...

You need to respect the old adage: 'It is better to be thought a fool, that to open your mouth, and remove all doubt.'

[500Club]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:10 AM, Artboy99 said:

Re: art compensation comments.

I have long wondered why it matters who created the character.

I have worked as an artist for over 30 years. I once worked for a company that created costumes, character "logos" and mascots that represented companies. I was paid a wage for my creations and my art ( it is called work for hire). If some company took the character I created for them, and then marketed it and earned billions from doing so good for them. I don't really care what someone does with something they paid me for.

Did Mr. Ditko feel the same way? Perhaps...

Two interesting lines of thought here.  First, Ditko followed the philosophies of Ayn Rand.  That led him to 'withdraw his services' from ASM, as he felt at the time he wasn't being compensated properly for the amount he was contributing to the title.  Near the end of his run on ASM, Stan was apparently discussing plots and stories in very cursory terms, leaving Ditko to essentially flesh out and tell the stories with his art.  That didn't seem to be a fair division of labor to Steve, when lined up with the relative compensation and acclaim being given.  Randian Objectivism thus led Ditko to look out for his own interests, and leave ASM.  In everything I've read, it wasn't the fact he was co-creator of Spidey that bothered Ditko, it was the fact that he was the de facto engine driving ASM at the end, while Stan was benefitting disproportionately from the success of the title.

 

Secondly, I agree with you on the work-for-hire perspective.  At the time, the creators entered into a contract where they provided a product, and the receiving company paid them for it.  This contract was entered into because the creator didn't have the wherewithal to get his product to point of sale without the enterprise capital (preparation, printing, publishing, distributing) that the corporation provided.  Occasionally, creators in various fields feel strongly enough about their creations that they split off from their work-for-hire contracts, and choose to supply all the capital required to produce and sell their product.  This, of course, entails much more risk.   Thus, choosing work-for-hire allows for a significant risk reduction, and a guaranteed return.  It's much in vogue to bemoan the poor creators who had creations succeed beyond anyone's wildest beliefs, but, on the other side of the contract, how about the unsuccessful product that the companies paid for? You never hear about anyone asking for a clawback of payments, which would be the symmetrical response from the other side of the contract.

[tv horror]

14 hours ago, RCheli said:

I suspect that Ditko was getting decent royalty checks for his work that was being reprinted by Marvel, DC, and other companies. I don't believe he has refused payment for that. His Spider-Man and Dr. Strange stories have been constantly in print over the past few decades, and while it's not huge money and not anywhere near the rate one would get for new pages, it was something. 

While I agree with you I also know that Marvel does not pay royalties for any work reprinted in the U.K which seems unfair to the writers and artist's.

[the blob]

On 8/29/2018 at 12:27 PM, namisgr said:

You could consider schools or charities before burning and destruction.  

Where is this coming from? He has two siblings, his estate is not going to the state.

[the blob]

16 hours ago, tv horror said:

While I agree with you I also know that Marvel does not pay royalties for any work reprinted in the U.K which seems unfair to the writers and artist's.

He got $2k a month to pay his rent from somewhere

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

SS