Ditko's estate... 6 6

[jsilverjanet]

What about Ringo? Well everyone needs a Ringo. He’s the straw that stirs the drink.

[Prince Namor]

24 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

The Lee Kirby conversation and to some extent Ditko reminds me of the McCartney, Lennon and Harrison conversation.

lennon in my opinion gets all the credit for being this artist and McCartney none (at Lennon’s level) for writing hit songs. Often forgotten is Harrison who was cooler than both of them.

 

Oh no... don’t even get me started on this!!!

[Prince Namor]

Just kidding. 

Great point. As much as the greatness of Lennon and McCartney held back George a bit, it’s no surprise that the first great Beatles solo record was George’s first ‘All Things Must Pass’. He was due. 

[500Club]

5 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

12 hours ago, 500Club said:

My response was something of a lead in, to allow you to state what you’ve read, and where.  My position is, Kirby and Ditko were wage for hire, and didn’t take any sort of negotiating position based on some perception of the likely future success of the creations.   Your response is akin to stating ‘studies have shown...’, to which I always think, ‘oh, yeah, what studies and where?’.

 Did you really think I was interested in getting into a "here's what I read, now show me what you have?" I know what your position is regarding Kirby and Ditko. Also know that you've reiterated your position and will probably continue to do so. Disagree based on what I know and have read about Kirby and Ditko. And my response is "akin" to knowing that much more empirical evidence is required since there probably haven't been any specific studies on the labor - management dynamics that existed in comic book publications during the '50s & 60s (at least I'm not aware of any). This would help us in getting more information. These thread discussions aren't always about "I'm right and you're wrong." 

Yes, actually.  That’s how I learn, and, in fact, based on the information, may be inclined to alter my position.  I’d be really interested to read about any views Kirby and Ditko put forth while dealing with Marvel in the early 60s, in the vein of ‘I want more because I feel these characters and stories I’m creating will be hugely finiancially successful in the future.’

Plus, I just love reading about the history of comics.

[500Club]

2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

If you want to get technical, there wouldn't be a Marvel Universe if Martin Goodman hadn't instructed Stan Lee to come up with something like the Justice League. The original plot to FF #1 written by Lee was discovered by a Marvel staffer who inherited Stan Lee's old desk, unless you'd like to call Roger Stern a liar as well?

And then, when Goodman said no to Spider-Man because no one likes spiders, but Stan snuck the origin story into a title slated for cancellation.

[500Club]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

I’ve said endlessly, my position is this: Without Stan Lee the Marvel Universe would never have come close to being noticed or acheiving the level of success it did. But without Kirby, it wouldn't have existed at all. I have no problem giving Lee his due, he was amazing at what he did.

I’d be more inclined to say both men were essential to what Marvel became.  I think if either one were subtracted from the equation, you wouldn’t have Marvel.  Ditko less so, but all three were giants in the genesis of Marvel.

[The Lions Den]

5 hours ago, jsilverjanet said:

The Lee Kirby conversation and to some extent Ditko reminds me of the McCartney, Lennon and Harrison conversation.

lennon in my opinion gets all the credit for being this artist and McCartney none (at Lennon’s level) for writing hit songs. Often forgotten is Harrison who was cooler than both of them.

 

I'd have to agree...he even looks a bit "Mercurial" in this photo...

Edited September 2, 2018 by The Lions Den
Additional info added

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, 500Club said:

I’d be more inclined to say both men were essential to what Marvel became.  I think if either one were subtracted from the equation, you wouldn’t have Marvel.  Ditko less so, but all three were giants in the genesis of Marvel.

Yes, they were BOTH essential to what Marvel became.

But make no mistake - without Lee, Jack Kirby would've gone on creating stuff. That's what he did before, after and during his time with Stan. Maybe he'd have gone on to a midling career with Charlton (him and Ditko both), where his work wouldn't be discovered as great until well after he had retired.

Lee? He'd have continued to hire artists to copy what the rest of the industry was doing. They'd have gone out of business or become a small struggling publisher.

[kav]

14 hours ago, Logan510 said:

I love how some of the sycophantic Kirby guys seem to forget that:

1) Kirby and Simon ran the same kind of work for hire studio that others have complained about when describing the poor treatment Kirby received from Marvel.

2) Kirby tried to take credit for creating Spider-Man and it got to the point where late in his life his circle of yes men had him believing he was responsible for the entire Marvel Universe.

I believe in credit where credit is due and Kirby deserves a ton of it, but not all of it.

Anyone who thinks that Kirby and Ditko actually did all the writing has only to compare to the stuff they actually did write.  I love the fourth world but the writing is goofy as hell.  No way Kirby wrote the FF, for example.

[thunsicker]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Anyone who thinks that Kirby and Ditko actually did all the writing has only to compare to the stuff they actually did write.  I love the fourth world but the writing is goofy as hell.  No way Kirby wrote the FF, for example.

My understanding is Lee always 'wrote' the comics what Kirby and Ditko did was plot the comics.  They came up with the stories and plotted them out and drew them,  Then they passed it on and Lee wrote the dialog.  This is not to diminish what Lee did.  What everyone said made the early 60's Marvel new/special was that the characters were just normal humans in so many ways.  This was all from the dialog/thought bubbles which was largely Lee's work.   I honestly it was a combination of the art, the scripting, and the time period that made those comics special.  None of Lee, Ditko, or Kirby has been successful without the other.  (Don't point me to the fourth world stuff, the art is incredible but they are unreadable.)

[kav]

28 minutes ago, thunsicker said:

My understanding is Lee always 'wrote' the comics what Kirby and Ditko did was plot the comics.  They came up with the stories and plotted them out and drew them,  Then they passed it on and Lee wrote the dialog.  This is not to diminish what Lee did.  What everyone said made the early 60's Marvel new/special was that the characters were just normal humans in so many ways.  This was all from the dialog/thought bubbles which was largely Lee's work.   I honestly it was a combination of the art, the scripting, and the time period that made those comics special.  None of Lee, Ditko, or Kirby has been successful without the other.  (Don't point me to the fourth world stuff, the art is incredible but they are unreadable.)

One time Kirby said that stan lee only wrote the credits.  That was false.

[jimjum12]

9 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

11 hours ago, 500Club said:

I’d be more inclined to say both men were essential to what Marvel became.  I think if either one were subtracted from the equation, you wouldn’t have Marvel.  Ditko less so, but all three were giants in the genesis of Marvel.

Yes, they were BOTH essential to what Marvel became.

But make no mistake - without Lee, Jack Kirby would've gone on creating stuff. That's what he did before, after and during his time with Stan. Maybe he'd have gone on to a midling career with Charlton (him and Ditko both), where his work wouldn't be discovered as great until well after he had retired.

Lee? He'd have continued to hire artists to copy what the rest of the industry was doing. They'd have gone out of business or become a small struggling publisher.

Some call it chemistry, some synergy ……  all I know was at the time, when I was buying these comics in the 60's, there was nothing else quite like them. They were so good that many of us paid crazy money to buy the ones we didn't have. Not a pan at D.C., but their product always seemed aimed AT me, where the Marvel experience was something I felt part of, along for the ride. That was in a large part due to Stan's motivational and promotional genius …. it was in the stories and around the stories, like a night on the town with good friends. Stan did that …. but I never got the impression that he ever, for a minute, lost sight of how lucky he was to have landed at that place and time with the talented artistic visionaries that brought focus to his emerging panorama. Their visuals were fantastic, but it was Lee who breathed LIFE into the monster's carcass . Then again, no offense intended, I doubt Curt Swan could have pulled off Galactus or Doctor Octopus …… it took a village, the Marvel village.... GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

People pan Stan for not hooking the guys up with creator's rights, but it wasn't his company. The contracts were signed and the money was paid for the work received.

Edited September 3, 2018 by jimjum12

[Prince Namor]

37 minutes ago, jimjum12 said:

Some call it chemistry, some synergy ……  all I know was at the time, when I was buying these comics in the 60's, there was nothing else quite like them. They were so good that many of us paid crazy money to buy the ones we didn't have. Not a pan at D.C., but their product always seemed aimed AT me, where the Marvel experience was something I felt part of, along for the ride. That was in a large part due to Stan's motivational and promotional genius …. it was in the stories and around the stories, like a night on the town with good friends. Stan did that …. but I never got the impression that he ever, for a minute, lost sight of how lucky he was to have landed at that place and time with the talented artistic visionaries that brought focus to his emerging panorama. Their visuals were fantastic, but it was Lee who breathed LIFE into the monsters carcass . Then again, no offense intended, I doubt Curt Swan could have pulled off Galactus or Doctor Octopus …… it took a village, the Marvel village.... GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

5

Without a doubt. 

37 minutes ago, jimjum12 said:

People pan Stan for not hooking the guys up with creator's rights, but it wasn't his company. The contracts were signed and the money was paid for the work received.

That's just it - no it wasn't. If Stan says 'Have the FF battle God' and Kirby comes back with the entire Galactus trilogy and the introduction of the Silver Surfer, who Stan has no clue who that is (That's Stan's own words) - then Stan didn't write that story. He shouldn't get paid for it. Jack should get paid for writing it and drawing it. Stan for editing it. That's not how it was set up. Stan ALWAYS got credit as the writer. Even when Ditko was just dropping off his completed stories from issue #26 on.

[jimjum12]

3 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

That's just it - no it wasn't. If Stan says 'Have the FF battle God' and Kirby comes back with the entire Galactus trilogy and the introduction of the Silver Surfer, who Stan has no clue who that is (That's Stan's own words) - then Stan didn't write that story. He shouldn't get paid for it. Jack should get paid for writing it and drawing it. Stan for editing it. That's not how it was set up. Stan ALWAYS got credit as the writer. Even when Ditko was just dropping off his completed stories from issue #26 on.

… I have to disagree.... Stan did much more than just edit. The dialogue is the -script, and it IS writing. We've all seen Kirby and Ditko's dialogue, and this wasn't what was on those pages. I don't believe for a minute that Ditko scripted those ASM pages..... like Kirby, he may have penciled in suggestions for clarification. Some people discount the importance of anything other than the art and concepts. It's a visual medium, I get that, but Lee's dialogue was what made the stories fun (...to me, of course) …. Kirby and Ditko's melodrama and preachiness would have become tiresome for me, I doubt I would have stuck around as long as I did. Again, this is just my opinion, but the end product wouldn't have been the same without Lee's words. If it were all Ditko, why did it continue to become even more successful after Romita came on board ? I've never read anything about him claiming that Stan did nothing.....  and ask Roy Thomas about Stan's talent sometime when you see him. I did. You're entitled to your opinion, naturally,  and this IS a discussion about perceptions, since none of us were directly involved.  GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[tv horror]

10 hours ago, jsilverjanet said:

What about Ringo? Well everyone needs a Ringo. He’s the straw that stirs the drink.

No he just DRUMS up business.

[Buzzetta]

10 hours ago, jsilverjanet said:

What about Ringo? Well everyone needs a Ringo. He’s the straw that stirs the drink.

There is only one man that truly was the straw that stirs the drink. 

[kav]

1 hour ago, jimjum12 said:

… I have to disagree.... Stan did much more than just edit. The dialogue is the ----script, and it IS writing. We've all seen Kirby and Ditko's dialogue, and this wasn't what was on those pages. I don't believe for a minute that Ditko scripted those ASM pages..... like Kirby, he may have penciled in suggestions for clarification. Some people discount the importance of anything other than the art and concepts. It's a visual medium, I get that, but Lee's dialogue was what made the stories fun (...to me, of course) …. Kirby and Ditko's melodrama and preachiness would have become tiresome for me, I doubt I would have stuck around as long as I did. Again, this is just my opinion, but the end product wouldn't have been the same without Lee's words. If it were all Ditko, why did it continue to become even more successful after Romita came on board ? I've never read anything about him claiming that Stan did nothing.....  and ask Roy Thomas about Stan's talent sometime when you see him. I did. You're entitled to your opinion, naturally,  and this IS a discussion about perceptions, since none of us were directly involved.  GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Yep there is no way Kirby scripted that FF.  Just read an issue of Kamandi or something or hell even his Captain America where he wrote and drew.  The dialogue is hilarious.  And man did he love quotation marks!  Here's "How" he "would" have written "This" sentence, for "instance".

In one issue of Kamandi he had Kamandi saying 'Those "pseudo-cops"'...which means they must have been pseudo pseudo cops ie REAL cops.  Wtf

Reed Richards never said  'That "Silver Surfer" is sent by "Galactus" to "destroy" the "Earth", for example.

Edited September 3, 2018 by kav

[500Club]

34 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

There is only one man that truly was the straw that stirs the drink. 

Has he been charged yet for trying to shoot the Queen?

[Mr bla bla]

3 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Without a doubt. 

That's just it - no it wasn't. If Stan says 'Have the FF battle God' and Kirby comes back with the entire Galactus trilogy and the introduction of the Silver Surfer, who Stan has no clue who that is (That's Stan's own words) - then Stan didn't write that story. He shouldn't get paid for it. Jack should get paid for writing it and drawing it. Stan for editing it. That's not how it was set up. Stan ALWAYS got credit as the writer. Even when Ditko was just dropping off his completed stories from issue #26 on.

This ...

[Aweandlorder]

18 hours ago, Logan510 said:

If you want to get technical, there wouldn't be a Marvel Universe if Martin Goodman hadn't instructed Stan Lee to come up with something like the Justice League. The original plot to FF #1 written by Lee was discovered by a Marvel staffer who inherited Stan Lee's old desk, unless you'd like to call Roger Stern a liar as well?

 

I remember reading somewhere that the main credit for the marvel universe belongs to Stan's wife. The rumor was that she was a big spender and if it wasn't for her excessive shopping habits Stan wouldn't have the need to create so many characters and sell so many books