Ditko's estate... 6 6

[Prince Namor]

 

8 hours ago, jimjum12 said:

… I have to disagree.... Stan did much more than just edit. The dialogue is the --script, and it IS writing. We've all seen Kirby and Ditko's dialogue, and this wasn't what was on those pages. I don't believe for a minute that Ditko scripted those ASM pages..... like Kirby, he may have penciled in suggestions for clarification. Some people discount the importance of anything other than the art and concepts. It's a visual medium, I get that, but Lee's dialogue was what made the stories fun (...to me, of course) …. Kirby and Ditko's melodrama and preachiness would have become tiresome for me, I doubt I would have stuck around as long as I did. Again, this is just my opinion, but the end product wouldn't have been the same without Lee's words.

1

I think you make a good point, it IS a part of what made it exciting, and it certainly again, wouldn't have been as popular without his style. However dialogue writing is NOT writing. It IS a specific talent. And essential talent in what made Marvel successful. But in all other forms of media, WRITERS of the story, make more money than those who spice up the dialogue. That's still the job of an editor, -script doctor, etc.

Stan was MORE than just an editor or -script doctor, for sure, and he paid himself very well for it, by claiming full writing credit on MANY stories he didn't actually write. Maybe he deserved it because he did MORE than just edit (which he got paid for as well), but his creative people deserved more because THEY were more than just artists. THEY were storytellers. And for all anyone wants say about Ditko or Kirby's dialogue AFTER Stan, they still created visually stunning stories AFTER Stan.

8 hours ago, jimjum12 said:

If it were all Ditko,

 

I'm not claiming it was all Ditko... where'd I say that?

8 hours ago, jimjum12 said:

why did it continue to become even more successful after Romita came on board ?

1

Romita is probably the most under rated talent to have worked during that era. His 7 years on Romance comics at DC (working with full scripts) paid off well for him. What Kirby was to action comics, Romita was to perfect style, pacing, characterization, and story. Personally, I believe HE was the Marvel artist that truly helped really commercialize Marvel.

8 hours ago, jimjum12 said:

I've never read anything about him claiming that Stan did nothing..... 

 

I never said he did. He HAS however also stated that at times Stan gave him very little to go on with a story and he had to be creative in putting it together.

8 hours ago, jimjum12 said:

and ask Roy Thomas about Stan's talent sometime when you see him. I did. You're entitled to your opinion, naturally,  and this IS a discussion about perceptions, since none of us were directly involved.  GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

My opinion, and I'll state it again, is that Stan was an essential part of it, maybe THE most essential part of it's success. Jack had been successful - both Captain America and the first Romance Comics sold over a million copies - something Stan never came close to doing - but what they achieved together at Marvel would turn into something unprecedented.

I just think Stan gets FAR too much credit for the 'story writing' and the 'creative process' and Jack not enough.

Yes, I get it - a whole generation of kids picked up Marvel Comics, because Stan brought them to it with his personality - it helped MAKE it successful - but NONE of those creations would've existed without Kirby and Ditko.

Stan created NOTHING before Kirby and Ditko and NOTHING after Kirby and Ditko. He's never even written a prose novel in his life. He's never shown he can really write a story. His talent has always been editing and showmanship - which is great - but until he had someone worthy of editing and promoting - he never went anywhere.

Kirby and Ditko deserved better treatment than they got. Stan was justly rewarded.

 

[namisgr]

I thought this thread was about Ditko's estate, not his legacy.

[Prince Namor]

And to go back to your point about Ditko and Kirby's preachiness... probably moreso with Ditko... FOR SURE, Stan's changes on that made it BETTER. That's still not writing the story - but thank goodness he DID make those changes. It's a talent - juggling all of those stories and understanding what works and what doesn't. It still isn't story writing. It's called editing. And even though Stan was MORE than just an editor, I still question if he could actually write a story on his own.

 

Stan Goldberg:
” Stan would drive me home and we’d plot our stories in the car. I’d say to Stan,”How’s this? Millie loses her job.” He’d say,”Great! Give me 25 pages.” And that took him off the hook. 
[interviewer: ” Sounds like you were doing most of the writing then.”]
“Well, I was.”One time I was in Stan’s office and I told him, “I don’t have another plot.” Stan got out of his chair and walked over to me, looked me in the face, and said very seriously, “I don’t ever want to hear you say you can’t think of another plot.” Then he walked back and sat down in his chair. He didn’t think he needed to tell me anything more.”

 

[tv horror]

1 hour ago, Aweandlorder said:

I remember reading somewhere that the main credit for the marvel universe belongs to Stan's wife. The rumor was that she was a big spender and if it wasn't for her excessive shopping habits Stan wouldn't have the need to create so many characters and sell so many books

It's funny that you mentioned the wife, I have a vet and when he tends my dog he always whispers "Never ask me the total while my wife's around!". 

[500Club]

6 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

My opinion, and I'll state it again, is that Stan was an essential part of it, maybe THE most essential part of it's success. Jack had been successful - both Captain America and the first Romance Comics sold over a million copies - something Stan never came close to doing - but what they achieved together at Marvel would turn into something unprecedented.

 I just think Stan gets FAR too much credit for the 'story writing' and the 'creative process' and Jack not enough.

This is a middle I’ll gladly meet you at, Chuck.  The ‘Marvel style’ was essentially Stan working out bare bones plot framework (or less), letting the artists have at the story, and then polishing it off with -script.  You won’t catch me shorting Jack and Steve (and others) credit due.

[500Club]

6 hours ago, namisgr said:

I thought this thread was about Ditko's estate, not his legacy.

Yeah, but as with many threads, it’s organically evolved in a couple of different directions.

[thunsicker]

1 hour ago, 500Club said:

7 hours ago, namisgr said:

I thought this thread was about Ditko's estate, not his legacy.

 Yeah, but as with many threads, it’s organically evolved in a couple of different directions.

Yeah it followed the estimate that his estate was worth only $1.3 Million.  Which compared to Stan Lee’s estimated estate of $50 million naturally brought up the disparity.  Of course neither compares to Goodman’s estimated estate of $125 Million at his death in ‘92.  Worth about $225 Million in today’s dollars.   And if I had to guess most of Stan’s wealth didn’t come from writing comics, but from being chairman for a brief time and being editor in chief for much longer.

[Aweandlorder]

7 hours ago, thunsicker said:

Yeah it followed the estimate that his estate was worth only $1.3 Million.  Which compared to Stan Lee’s estimated estate of $50 million naturally brought up the disparity.  Of course neither compares to Goodman’s estimated estate of $125 Million at his death in ‘92.  Worth about $225 Million in today’s dollars.   And if I had to guess most of Stan’s wealth didn’t come from writing comics, but from being chairman for a brief time and being editor in chief for much longer.

Yup. Stan's net worth at 50 m is probably an indication that he isn't the business shark that most people claim him to be. His name/legacy coupled with his creations would suggest he'd be worth at least 7-10 times that

[Prince Namor]

16 hours ago, thunsicker said:

Yeah it followed the estimate that his estate was worth only $1.3 Million.  Which compared to Stan Lee’s estimated estate of $50 million naturally brought up the disparity.  Of course neither compares to Goodman’s estimated estate of $125 Million at his death in ‘92.  Worth about $225 Million in today’s dollars.   And if I had to guess most of Stan’s wealth didn’t come from writing comics, but from being chairman for a brief time and being editor in chief for much longer.

Marvel gave Stan a $1 million a year to license 'his' characters, starting in 1972, for life. When they went into bankruptcy in early 1998, that deal was voided by ike Perlmutter, unintentionally giving all of those rights back to Stan (which led to some of Stan's own bad business decisions)

In November 1998, with the new owners of Marvel he signed away his movie points for $10 Million + $1 Million a Year for life.

So 1972 to 2018 @ $1 Million per year = $46 Million + $10 Million = $56 Million.

If his estate is only worth $50 Million now, he did something wrong.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

4 out of 5 Doctors recommend the Stan Estate.....

[thunsicker]

48 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

If his estate is only worth $50 Million now, he did something wrong.

  You mean like paying taxes?

[Mr bla bla]

Stan Lee (personally) and Marvel corp (as brand) - both have a serious explaining problem With regard to Steve and Jack. 

Marvel which for instance refused to return 10.000 pages of OA to Jack. They wanted to keep it. And when leverage was applied against Marvel from angry fans, what happened? Well the night before parts of the OA was being shipped to Kirby, well several thousands of pages of Jacks OA "went missing" while being held at Marvel.

Stan L for stealing creative credit away from Ditko and Kirby. C'mon Stan L has NEVER created ANYTHING before or after his editorial stint with Ditko and Kirby. The whole story stinks. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Mr bla bla

[thunsicker]

18 minutes ago, Mr bla bla said:

both has has a serious explaining problem With regard to Steve and Jack.

James, while John had had "had", had had "had had"; "had had" had had a better effect on the teacher.

 

EDIT:  Sorry, didn't mean to make fun of your mistyping, just the first thing I thought of when I saw the double has.

Edited September 4, 2018 by thunsicker

[Mr bla bla]

41 minutes ago, thunsicker said:

James, while John had had "had", had had "had had"; "had had" had had a better effect on the teacher.

 

EDIT:  Sorry, didn't mean to make fun of your mistyping, just the first thing I thought of when I saw the double has.

Cricketts ...

[valiantman]

On 9/3/2018 at 3:09 PM, thunsicker said:

Of course neither compares to Goodman’s estimated estate of $125 Million at his death in ‘92.  Worth about $225 Million in today’s dollars.

But '92 is worth 2018 in today's years. 

[Aman619]

16 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Marvel gave Stan a $1 million a year to license 'his' characters, starting in 1972, for life. When they went into bankruptcy in early 1998, that deal was voided by ike Perlmutter, unintentionally giving all of those rights back to Stan (which led to some of Stan's own bad business decisions)

In November 1998, with the new owners of Marvel he signed away his movie points for $10 Million + $1 Million a Year for life.

So 1972 to 2018 @ $1 Million per year = $46 Million + $10 Million = $56 Million.

If his estate is only worth $50 Million now, he did something wrong.

  In all your reading of Marvel history, where did you read that Stan licensed the characters to Marvel in 1972?? He never owned the slightest piece of the characters. And he was paid a million a year starting much later on, in the nineties. He was paid to remain the face of the characters, and of  Marvel, as a Walt Disney type creator emeritus and Marvel guru. 

The 10M payment he final received was a final settlement on Stan’s contract from the 70s when he went to kickstart Marvel into Hollywood. 10% of all film profits.  But he never sold anything.  It was Avi Arads Spider-Man films in the 2000s that tossed billions — with Stan never getting his profits check — that Caused Satan to sue Marvel, resulting in the one time payout of 10M. Far less than 10% of the profits would have been.  But still a pretty good payday. 

‘You are correct that Ike voided Stan’s deal AND all talent deals at Marvel Comics when he took over (cheap sob) they wanted him gone cause he was getting too much..  this was the opening Peter Paul had been waiting for, getting his hooks into Stan.  Of course PP did pretty well in the beginning, as Stan Lee Media’s stock value eclipsed Marvels for a short time. Before it all went south.  In the end Marvel re signed a million dollar a year deal with Stan 

[ashsaytr]

"...that Caused Satan to sue Marvel..." 

[Mr bla bla]

2 hours ago, ashsaytr said:

"...that Caused Satan to sue Marvel..." 

My remark was poof'ed.

Sob ... obviously I meant "s-t-a-n". I dont know how that little pescy "a" found its way in to my typo.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Mr bla bla

[Aman619]

That was my typo.  Oops