Ron Frenz Pencil Prelims to ASM #252 cover for sale 2 2

[PhilipB2k17]

2 hours ago, The Voord said:

Unfortunately, the OP has a leaning towards conspiracy theories, of which this is a latest addition.  I'm sure he's a decent guy and if this was a one-off thread for him we might be less harsh in our responses.  To avoid such resulting controversy, the OP should have sounded-out Rueben or Frenz (via his rep) before creating this thread.  I see no evidence of that in any of his posts?

Actually, what’s really going on is that people who are buddies with Ruben got offended that someone questioned the provenance of the stuff he was selling. And Mike is correct, all I asked was whether anyone here thought this was authentic. I thought that’s what this board was for? 

It’s new to me that I first have to contact the seller (as if he’s going to say “No. Totally fake! It’s a scam, you caught me.”) or the artist (assuming I even know where to ask or how). I seem to recall actually doing some due diligence on some art and letting Malvin know my findings in sone CAF messages. He thanked me. Now I’m a villain? 

I see people post questions like that about pieces here all the time. And these were being advertised as THE prelim sketches for one of the most iconic Spider-Man covers. Not just some rando drawing. 

My post was legit. And the whiny criticism of it (and ad hominem attacks on my character) are beneath the dignity of most of the people who posted that nonsense. 

So, thank you Mike for being objective and seeing my post for what it was, and not as a personal attack’s on someone Dealer buddy  

One last point: I find it hard to believe that my asking this question reduces the value of these pieces. I’m not a major player in this hobby. But, even if it did, that’s the risk you take selling sketches that you cannot demonstrate have provenance other than your say so. I didn’t make up that rule. That’s the way the world works. You try selling some random squiggles on notebook paper as a Picasso, and someone is going to ask questions about it, even if you’re Sotheby’s. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[The Voord]

2 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Actually, what’s really going on is that people who are buddies with Ruben got offended that someone questioned the provenance of the stuff he was selling. And Mike is correct, all I asked was whether anyone here thought this was legit. It’s new to me thatI first have to contact the seller (as if he’s going to say “No. totally fake!”) or the artist (assuming I even know where to ask or how)

I see people post questions like that about pieces here all the time. And these were being advertised as THE prelim sketches for one of the most iconic Spider-Man covers. Not just some rando drawing. 

My post was legit. And the whiny criticism of it (and ad hominem attacks on my character) are beneath the dignity of most of the people who posted that nonsense. 

So, thank you Mike for being objective and seeing my post for what it was, and not as a personal attack’s on sineone’s Dealer buddy  

 

In that case we should all start such threads (without doing any homework beforehand) every time a dealer has unpublished artwork offered for sale?

[PhilipB2k17]

6 minutes ago, The Voord said:

In that case we should all start such threads (without doing any homework beforehand) every time a dealer has unpublished artwork offered for sale?

It depends on what’s being advertised. If you’re advertising the prelim sketches for the cover to ASM 252, then yes. If it’s just a random convention headshot sketch, then no.  But, IVE STILL SEEN PEOPLE POST RANDOM HEAD SHOT SKETCHES HERE. 

Moreover, if you are considering buying said unpublished art for a lot of money, and have questions about it, why shouldn’t you ask knowledgeable people here about it? 

Edited September 2, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[The Voord]

5 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

It depends on what’s being advertised. If you’re advertising the prelim sketches for the cover to ASM 252, then yes. If it’s just a random convention headshot sketch, then no.  But, IVE STILL SEEN PEOPLE POST RANDOM HEAD SHOT SKETCHES HERE. 

If such sketches are coming from eBay sellers with a history of selling fake artworks then, yes, boardies are right to question such things.  If being offered by trusted sellers with a background for honesty, try asking the questions before casting doubts.

Edited September 2, 2018 by The Voord

[PhilipB2k17]

4 minutes ago, The Voord said:

If such sketches are coming from eBay sellers with a history of selling fake artworks then, yes, boardies are right to question such things.  If being offered by trusted sellers with a background for honesty, try asking the questions before casting doubts.

Again, why? The seller is not going to say they are fake, or are questionable. Either because they honestly believe they aren’t, or because they are scamming. With sketches, how the bell does Ruben know where they are from unless, like Mike pointed out, he got them directly from the artist, or the artist themselves confirm their authenticity. But even the latter isn’t fool proof as even folks like Neal Adams get fooled on sketches sometimes. 

I updated the OP with the info both Ruben & Frenz camp told me. What else do you want me to do?  

Edited September 2, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[wurstisart]

Sorry but can we all move on.

Lately these discussions and accusations are getting very VERY tiring. 

[The Voord]

14 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

1.  I updated the OP with the info both Ruben & Frenz camp told me.

2.  What else do you want me to do?  

1.  Sometime after you created this thread.

2.  Get in the results of your investigations before creating such a thread as this one.

Edited September 2, 2018 by The Voord

[The Voord]

10 minutes ago, wurstisart said:

Sorry but can we all move on.

Lately these discussions and accusations are getting very VERY tiring. 

Good idea, I'm moving on and have nothing further to add here . . .

[Michael Browning]

1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

It depends on what’s being advertised. If you’re advertising the prelim sketches for the cover to ASM 252, then yes. If it’s just a random convention headshot sketch, then no.  But, IVE STILL SEEN PEOPLE POST RANDOM HEAD SHOT SKETCHES HERE. 

Moreover, if you are considering buying said unpublished art for a lot of money, and have questions about it, why shouldn’t you ask knowledgeable people here about it? 

You would think, though, that the most knowledgeable people to ask would FIRST be the SELLER AND THE ARTIST.

[PhilipB2k17]

51 minutes ago, Michael Browning said:

You would think, though, that the most knowledgeable people to ask would FIRST be the SELLER AND THE ARTIST.

Why would a seller tell me it’s fake, or questionable, if they are advertising otherwise? And what if the artist is dead or not responding to emails? Or, what if you have no clue how to get in touch with the artist? 

Edited September 2, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[BCarter27]

30 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

what if you have no clue how to get in touch with the artist? 

This is often a legitimate problem. Not everyone is so plugged in to the artist community. And we've seen pieces identified or verified or struck down when someone posts a questionable piece, another boardie with a connection to that artist will reach out to them on the OP's behalf, and then post the artist's reply here. Maybe someone can get in touch with Frenz and ask him for the OP? Or maybe the seller could do so? It would only strengthen their provenance.

3 hours ago, The Voord said:

every time a dealer has unpublished artwork

I think provenance for unpublished work is going to be more and more of a problem as we move forward and the older generation of artists passes on. I applaud the collectors who get snapshots with their convention sketches -- modern technology at work!

[Michael Browning]

13 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

This is often a legitimate problem. Not everyone is so plugged in to the artist community. And we've seen pieces identified or verified or struck down when someone posts a questionable piece, another boardie with a connection to that artist will reach out to them on the OP's behalf, and then post the artist's reply here. Maybe someone can get in touch with Frenz and ask him for the OP? Or maybe the seller could do so? It would only strengthen their provenance.

I think provenance for unpublished work is going to be more and more of a problem as we move forward and the older generation of artists passes on. I applaud the collectors who get snapshots with their convention sketches -- modern technology at work!

After he started this thread, he THEN went to the sources - Ruben and Frenz - and asked them. Ruben has been around this business longer than I've been in it and he is a very reputable dealer. If he thought it was a fake, he wouldn't have bought it, I'm sure, and, he certainly wouldn't have put it up for sale. Ruben is a straight-up, good dealer. He and I have had our differences in the past, so I'm not taking up for him because he's a friend, but he's always been a straight shooter.

The original poster got confirmation from both Ruben and Frenz and then went back in and edited and changed the tone of his question. Now, if he didn't know how to get in touch with Frenz (which is very easy to do if he'd just look him up on the internet and see that he is repped by Catskill Comics ... oh wait, he did that AFTER he posted), he could have asked on here or numerous other sites asking for Frenz's contact information.

My biggest problem is that he's not even a guy who is considering buying the art! He's just some random collector who saw it and decided to ask his question in a way that made it sound like the piece was a fake -- in a public, original art forum.

I know my tone sounds very harsh on here concerning this issue and I do get frustrated with collectors who just automatically call something "alleged" or "fake" before checking. But, as collectors, we have to be mindful of what allegations of forgery such as this one can do to a piece's value. It's just like someone accusing you of a crime you didn't commit and it appearing in the papers and on the news that you were arrested for that crime, then it being proven that you didn't do it. After that first story hits the news, many people will consider you guilty, no matter that you are later proven innocent. The stain is still there and it's hard to remove and it can follow someone the rest of their life. Same thing with art. There will always be that one collector who says "I saw on a thread where this is an 'alleged' preliminary, so I won't touch it," because they didn't see the amended thread or that the original poster later got confirmation that the art was indeed the real deal.

[malvin]

4 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Actually, what’s really going on is that people who are buddies with Ruben got offended that someone questioned the provenance of the stuff he was selling. And Mike is correct, all I asked was whether anyone here thought this was authentic. I thought that’s what this board was for? 

It’s new to me that I first have to contact the seller (as if he’s going to say “No. Totally fake! It’s a scam, you caught me.”) or the artist (assuming I even know where to ask or how). I seem to recall actually doing some due diligence on some art and letting Malvin know my findings in sone CAF messages. He thanked me. Now I’m a villain? 

I see people post questions like that about pieces here all the time. And these were being advertised as THE prelim sketches for one of the most iconic Spider-Man covers. Not just some rando drawing. 

My post was legit. And the whiny criticism of it (and ad hominem attacks on my character) are beneath the dignity of most of the people who posted that nonsense. 

So, thank you Mike for being objective and seeing my post for what it was, and not as a personal attack’s on someone Dealer buddy  

One last point: I find it hard to believe that my asking this question reduces the value of these pieces. I’m not a major player in this hobby. But, even if it did, that’s the risk you take selling sketches that you cannot demonstrate have provenance other than your say so. I didn’t make up that rule. That’s the way the world works. You try selling some random squiggles on notebook paper as a Picasso, and someone is going to ask questions about it, even if you’re Sotheby’s. 

People have already stated they are tired of this topic so these are my last thoughts.

My issue was never about questioning the authenticity or the provenance of the piece.  Rather about how it was done.

No issue with subjects such as:

"Key ASM Frenz Prelim for sale - Any thoughts" or "Key ASM Frenz Prelim for sale - Any history"

Heck, even if the body had something phrased like "so and so artists usually does prelims on board, this is on paper so I am wondering.."

A good example is that Norem Rampaging Hulk #9 Cover that just got started.  The subject is neutral, and in the body, the OP explains why he thinks there is an issue.

But for this thread, the subject was (and I'm paraphrasing since the subject has been changed"):

"Alleged Ron Frenz Pencil Prelims to ASM #252 cover for sale" implying that it is fake and impugning the piece.  And in this case, the artist and seller were responsive, Philip could have waited (the excuse of not being able to contact the artist doesn't apply here) but posted anyways.  

Saying afterwards that he is not a major player and his voice should not matter is also disingenuous.  It's a good excuse to use if false accusations are made.  Under that same logic, if he was not a major player, people won't listen even if it was fake, so why post then?

Using the fire in the theatre analogy, nothing wrong with warning people if there was a real fire.  But seeing someone light up a cigarette (let's pretend it's back in the days when smoking was allowed) then yelling "fire! fire" at the top of his lungs is the wrong thing to do.  If people got trampled during the stampede out of the theatre, you can't say afterwards "I'm not a major player, I didn't think people would stampede out, not my fault someone got trampled to death, they should not have listed to me".  Then why yell fire?

Malvin

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by malvin

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, malvin said:

People have already stated they are tired of this topic so these are my last thoughts.

My issue was never about questioning the authenticity or the provenance of the piece.  Rather about how it was done.

No issue with subjects such as:

"Key ASM Frenz Prelim for sale - Any thoughts" or "Key ASM Frenz Prelim for sale - Any history"

Heck, even if the body had something phrased like "so and so artists usually does prelims on board, this is on paper so I am wondering.."

A good example is that Norem Rampaging Hulk #9 Cover that just got started.  The subject is neutral, and in the body, the OP explains why he thinks there is an issue.

But for this thread, the subject was (and I'm paraphrasing since the subject has been changed"):

"Alleged Ron Frenz Pencil Prelims to ASM #252 cover for sale" implying that it is fake and impugning the piece.  And in this case, the artist and seller were responsive, Philip could have waited (the excuse of not being able to contact the artist doesn't apply here) but posted anyways.  

Saying afterwards that he is not a major player and his voice should not matter is also disingenuous.  It's a good excuse to use if false accusations are made.  Under that same logic, if he was not a major player, people won't listen even if it was fake, so why post then?

Using the fire in the theatre analogy, nothing wrong with warning people if there was a real fire.  But seeing someone light up a cigarette (let's pretend it's back in the days when smoking was allowed) then yelling "fire! fire" at the top of his lungs is the wrong thing to do.  If people got trampled during the stampede out of the theatre, you can't say afterwards "I'm not a major player, I didn't think people would stampede out, not my fault someone got trampled to death, they should not have listed to me".  Then why yell fire?

Malvin

 

Do people here even know what the word “alleged” means? 

[Michael Browning]

1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Do people here even know what the word “alleged” means? 

The word alleged can have a negative connotation when it's used the way you used it. It certainly did have a negative connotation and made it seem like you were pointing out that the piece of art in question is probably a fake. Then, you asked the two best sources and both confirmed it was real, then you deleted your previous post to make it seem less like the art was fake, but that you were the one who confirmed it was real to put everyone's minds to rest. Thanks for confirming what we already knew.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Michael Browning
I wasn't really done with the thread.

[Michael Browning]

3 hours ago, malvin said:

People have already stated they are tired of this topic so these are my last thoughts.

My issue was never about questioning the authenticity or the provenance of the piece.  Rather about how it was done.

No issue with subjects such as:

"Key ASM Frenz Prelim for sale - Any thoughts" or "Key ASM Frenz Prelim for sale - Any history"

Heck, even if the body had something phrased like "so and so artists usually does prelims on board, this is on paper so I am wondering.."

A good example is that Norem Rampaging Hulk #9 Cover that just got started.  The subject is neutral, and in the body, the OP explains why he thinks there is an issue.

But for this thread, the subject was (and I'm paraphrasing since the subject has been changed"):

"Alleged Ron Frenz Pencil Prelims to ASM #252 cover for sale" implying that it is fake and impugning the piece.  And in this case, the artist and seller were responsive, Philip could have waited (the excuse of not being able to contact the artist doesn't apply here) but posted anyways.  

Saying afterwards that he is not a major player and his voice should not matter is also disingenuous.  It's a good excuse to use if false accusations are made.  Under that same logic, if he was not a major player, people won't listen even if it was fake, so why post then?

Using the fire in the theatre analogy, nothing wrong with warning people if there was a real fire.  But seeing someone light up a cigarette (let's pretend it's back in the days when smoking was allowed) then yelling "fire! fire" at the top of his lungs is the wrong thing to do.  If people got trampled during the stampede out of the theatre, you can't say afterwards "I'm not a major player, I didn't think people would stampede out, not my fault someone got trampled to death, they should not have listed to me".  Then why yell fire?

Malvin

 

Great analogy.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Michael Browning

[PhilipB2k17]

54 minutes ago, Michael Browning said:

The word alleged can have a negative connotation when it's used the way you used it. It certainly did have a negative connotation and made it seem like you were pointing out that the piece of art in question is probably a fake. Then, you asked the two best sources and both confirmed it was real, then you deleted your previous post to make it seem less like the art was fake, but that you were the one who confirmed it was real to put everyone's minds to rest. Thanks for confirming what we already knew.

I didn’t delete. I added updates. I changed the headline too. 

[PhilipB2k17]

51 minutes ago, Michael Browning said:

Great analogy.

No it’s not. The comparison is fatuous and hyperbolic. 

[PhilipB2k17]

Please note. Not a single person, who claims to have known the art was legit, said so in response to my OP. (Other than daily I g, they vouch for Ruben). They got pissy pantsed over the mere questioning that their old pal Ruben might not have what he says he has posted for sale. Let’s not pretend this was anything other than a pile on, freak out, to defend the old boys hobby network. 

This is the last comment Im making on this, as I see the ridiculous overreaction to my post has continued unabated. I did nothing wrong. I’m not apologizing.

Edited September 2, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[The Voord]

40 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

 

This is the last comment Im making on this