Poll: First Appearance Criteria 1 1

[Krydel4]

Spinning out of discussions in other threads about first appearances, I thought it might be fun it to have an unbiased anonymous poll questions to glean some insight into the opinions of the comic collectors here into what constitutes a first appearance of a character. I know there maybe some exceptions to the choices I gave ( ie. Snake-Eyes and others). But hopefully, this way will make for a structured dialogue and the thread won't devolve into a shouting match. Cheers.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Krydel4

[Gaard]

1st appearance = 1st appearance. Regardless if it's on the cover or in the story. Regardless if there's dialogue or not. Regardless if it's one panel or multiple pages.

[Krydel4]

4 minutes ago, Gaard said:

1st appearance = 1st appearance. Regardless if it's on the cover or in the story. Regardless if there's dialogue or not. Regardless if it's one panel or multiple pages.

It would be great if our hobby thought/worked like that, but it doesn't. So if you had to pick one...?

[ExNihilo]

Personally, I feel like there needs to be some distinction between cameo and 1st appearance.

[Gaard]

5 minutes ago, Krydel4 said:

It would be great if our hobby thought/worked like that, but it doesn't. So if you had to pick one...?

I feel like the word "or" should be in a choice.

[Lazyboy]

9 minutes ago, Gaard said:

1st appearance = 1st appearance. Regardless if it's on the cover or in the story. Regardless if there's dialogue or not. Regardless if it's one panel or multiple pages.

Yes, except covers aren't appearances.

5 minutes ago, Krydel4 said:

It would be great if our hobby thought/worked like that, but it doesn't.

1 minute ago, ExNihilo said:

Personally, I feel like there needs to be some distinction between cameo and 1st appearance.

A cameo is an established character making a brief appearance. That's the distinction. Ignore the former improper use of cameo in the hobby.

[ExNihilo]

2 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

A cameo is an established character making a brief appearance. That's the distinction. Ignore the former improper use of cameo in the hobby.

I don't know what the former improper use was. 

As far as cameo vs 1st appearance, the discussion on the Batman Who Laughs illustrates an example of the distinction I am thinking of.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Several of the distinctions in the poll are not necessary.

As it has been defined, and generally accepted, in the hobby since its genesis in the 60s, an appearance is in the context of a story.

This makes sense, because comic books...or "sequential art" as Will Eisner called it....is a graphic (that is, pictorial) storytelling (that is, conveys or transmits a narrative via those pictures) artform. 

Promos, ads, pinups, previews of non-original comic pages, articles about upcoming characters...none of those has historically been considered appearances.

And this has been applicable since the beginning of comics, or Action Comics #12 would be called "the first appearance of Batman."

It is not.

"But...that's how someone ELSE chose to define it. It doesn't HAVE to be defined that way!"

True.

But the reason it was defined that way is because of what comics are, and trying to redefine it would alter decades of precedence and common sense.

Does that mean these previews, pinups, promos, ads, and whatnot aren't historically interesting, and can (and do!) have value of their own?

Of course not.

It simply means that those examples aren't "first appearances." 

Dialogue, no dialogue, cover appearance, no cover appearance, one page, multiple pages...all meaningless distinctions.

Show me an example of sequential art...even just a single page, with a mere two panels...that has the first depiction of that character, and is not merely a preview of a page destined for another book...and I'll gladly stand with you and call it a "first appearance." 

Otherwise...I'll stand with generations of collectors who have come before me and you.

[Krydel4]

15 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Several of the distinctions in the poll are not necessary.

As it has been defined, and generally accepted, in the hobby since its genesis in the 60s, an appearance is in the context of a story.

This makes sense, because comic books...or "sequential art" as Will Eisner called it....is a graphic (that is, pictorial) storytelling (that is, conveys or transmits a narrative via those pictures) artform. 

Promos, ads, pinups, previews of non-original comic pages, articles about upcoming characters...none of those has historically been considered appearances.

And this has been applicable since the beginning of comics, or Action Comics #12 would be called "the first appearance of Batman."

It is not.

"But...that's how someone ELSE chose to define it. It doesn't HAVE to be defined that way!"

True.

But the reason it was defined that way is because of what comics are, and trying to redefine it would alter decades of precedence and common sense.

Does that mean these previews, pinups, promos, ads, and whatnot aren't historically interesting, and can (and do!) have value of their own?

Of course not.

It simply means that those examples aren't "first appearances." 

Dialogue, no dialogue, cover appearance, no cover appearance, one page, multiple pages...all meaningless distinctions.

Show me an example of sequential art...even just a single page, with a mere two panels...that has the first depiction of that character, and is not merely a preview of a page destined for another book...and I'll gladly stand with you and call it a "first appearance." 

Otherwise...I'll stand with generations of collectors who have come before me and you.

Thank you for your feedback, RMA.

It has been nice so far to hear members opinions on this (sometimes polarizing) subject. Hopefully, everyone is taking the time to vote on one of the choices they like or for one they find the least objectionable. Cheers.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, Krydel4 said:

Thank you for your feedback, RMA.

It has been nice so far to hear members opinions on this (sometimes polarizing) subject. Hopefully, everyone is taking the time to vote on one of the choices they like or for one they find the least objectionable. Cheers.

You're quite welcome. Unfortunately, since all the choices are valid (or a case can be made for them) except the last two, there's really no way for me to vote. 

[AGGIEZ]

22 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Show me an example of sequential art...even just a single page, with a mere two panels...that has the first depiction of that character, and is not merely a preview of a page destined for another book...and I'll gladly stand with you and call it a "first appearance." 

Otherwise...I'll stand with generations of collectors who have come before me and you.

Jimmy Olsen #134...1st appearance on its face is pretty straight forward...the first time the character appears anywhere is, by definition, their first appearance. That doesn't alway equate to market desirability though. The "1st appearance" of Gambit is a prime example. Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 (July 1990) is Gambit's first appearance...he appears in over a dozen panels...but the market loves Uncanny X-Men #266 (August 1990). There are countless other examples. 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, AGGIEZ said:

31 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Show me an example of sequential art...even just a single page, with a mere two panels...that has the first depiction of that character, and is not merely a preview of a page destined for another book...and I'll gladly stand with you and call it a "first appearance." 

Otherwise...I'll stand with generations of collectors who have come before me and you.

Jimmy Olsen #134

JO #134 is a great example. That single view of Darkseid is within the context of the story. 

[thunsicker]

First appearance is which ever comic the community decides it is?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Even books composed solely of single panel pages...like Superman #75...qualify, since the book isn't a mere collection of pinups, a la Wildstorm Swimsuit Special, but each page is part of the whole narrative of the book.

[SBRobin]

1 hour ago, ExNihilo said:

Personally, I feel like there needs to be some distinction between cameo and 1st appearance.

There already is; it's just that the industry uses it incorrectly. Cameo and first appearance are not mutually exclusive. 

 

48 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

and generally accepted, in the hobby since its genesis in the 60s, an appearance is in the context of a story

Not generally accepted in this community, if the results of this poll are any indication. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by SBRobin

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, SBRobin said:

52 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

and generally accepted, in the hobby since its genesis in the 60s, an appearance is in the context of a story

Not generally accepted in this community, if the results of this poll are any indication. 

We must be looking at different polls. The poll I see only has 8 votes so far, and they're all for "story context" type appearances.

[SBRobin]

Didn't even notice it was only 8 votes, so I guess you are right that more input is probably needed. I think when all is said and done though most people here will vote that way.

[musicmeta]

1 hour ago, AGGIEZ said:

Jimmy Olsen #134...1st appearance on its face is pretty straight forward...the first time the character appears anywhere is, by definition, their first appearance. That doesn't alway equate to market desirability though. The "1st appearance" of Gambit is a prime example. Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 (July 1990) is Gambit's first appearance...he appears in over a dozen panels...but the market loves Uncanny X-Men #266 (August 1990). There are countless other examples. 

 

Same here.. I don't know why this is such a chore to find out the "VERY FIRST TIME YOU SAW THIS CHARACTER IN A COMIC BOOK" not counting Advertisements (maybe we should count those??).  i.e. The VERY FIRST TIME I SAW the Wolverine was Hulk 180. 
Now, the market dictated that Hulk 181 is more desirable and more valuable.  Fine..But the VERY FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE WOLVERINE was Hulk 180...Case closed to me.

[Krydel4]

So far we have votes for:

Appearance on Cover and Multiple story pages with dialogue ie. Tec 27, AC 1 etc. (Batman, Superman)

Appearance in Single story page with dialogue, No Cover appearance ie. IH 180, JO 134 etc. (Wolverine ,Darkseid)

Appearance in Single story page without dialogue, No Cover appearance ie. IF 13 (Sabertooth)

Appearance in Multiple story pages without dialogue, No Cover appearance G.I. JOE:ARAH 1 (Snake-Eyes)

Interesting results so far. Cheers.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, musicmeta said:

not counting Advertisements (maybe we should count those??).

NO. BAD meta. BAD!