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Poll: First Appearance Criteria
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First Appearance Criteria  

50 members have voted

  1. 1. In your opinion, what criteria is needed to define a characters First Appearance in a comic?

    • Appearance on Cover Only
      0
    • Appearance on Cover and Single story page with dialogue
      1
    • Appearance on Cover and Single story page without dialogue
      1
    • Appearance on Cover and Multiple story pages with dialogue
      2
    • Appearance on Cover and Multiple story pages without dialogue
      0
    • Appearance in Single story page with dialogue, No Cover appearance
      10
    • Appearance in Single story page without dialogue, No Cover appearance
      34
    • Appearance in Multiple story pages with dialogue, No Cover appearance
      1
    • Appearance in Multiple story pages without dialogue, No Cover appearance
      1
    • Pinup in other comic
      0
    • Advertisement or Solicitation in other comic
      0


75 posts in this topic

19 minutes ago, Krydel4 said:

So far we have votes for:

Appearance on Cover and Multiple story pages with dialogue ie. Tec 27, AC 1 etc. (Batman, Superman)

Appearance in Single story page with dialogue, No Cover appearance ie. IH 180, JO 134 etc. (Wolverine ,Darkseid)

Appearance in Single story page without dialogue, No Cover appearance ie. IF 13 (Sabertooth)

Appearance in Multiple story pages without dialogue, No Cover appearance G.I. JOE:ARAH 1 (Snake-Eyes)

Interesting results so far. Cheers.

 

Iron Fist #13 is NOT an "appearance in single story page without dialogue." He doesn't appear in the story at all. He appears in a promo blurb at the bottom of the page, which is not part of the story.

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I voted based on what the bare minimum should be (Appearance in Single story page without dialogue, No Cover appearance) but as RMA stated they are all qualifiers of a first appearance except the bottom two and maybe the top one.  Gambit, Wolverine and Darkseid's appearances have already been brought up as one's that are contentious or confusing.  Mystique and Apocalypse are the same where the market's decided what issue really matters and it's not the first time they actually appeared.  No matter what our thoughts are the market will always drive which book really matters when it comes to resale value. 

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10 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Iron Fist #13 is NOT an "appearance in single story page without dialogue." He doesn't appear in the story at all. He appears in a promo blurb at the bottom of the page, which is not part of the story.

My bad. I was going off of memory. Read that book a long time ago. 

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10 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Iron Fist #13 is NOT an "appearance in single story page without dialogue." He doesn't appear in the story at all. He appears in a promo blurb at the bottom of the page, which is not part of the story.

The same with New Mutants #86. At the bottom of the last page, Cable is in the next issue blurb, and nobody has ever considered that the first appearance of the character.

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Was at my local LCS yesterday and spoke with the owner on this topic. From his perspective as a dealer it's easier to sell a book that has both a cover appearance and interior apperance regardless if the character appeared (no matter how much) in another book. He did reference IH 180 and 181. As a fan he knows that Wolverine appeared first in 180 but as a dealer 181s cover makes it so much easier to sell it as the first apperance. He referenced AS 8 as a guide for that. It ,almost begrudgingly, is sold, as it should, as the first appearance of Wonder Women but has no where near the cache of AC 1 or Tec 27 because she doesn't appear on the cover and it hurts sales. Most collectors may prefer Sensation Comics 1 or WW 1 because she is on the cover. It got me thinking more about the influence that dealers have in terms of steering people towards certain books. Any dealers wish to chime in? 

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11 hours ago, Krydel4 said:

So far we have votes for:

Appearance on Cover and Multiple story pages with dialogue ie. Tec 27, AC 1 etc. (Batman, Superman)

Appearance in Single story page with dialogue, No Cover appearance ie. IH 180, JO 134 etc. (Wolverine ,Darkseid)

Appearance in Single story page without dialogue, No Cover appearance ie. IF 13 (Sabertooth)

Appearance in Multiple story pages without dialogue, No Cover appearance G.I. JOE:ARAH 1 (Snake-Eyes)

Interesting results so far. Cheers.

 

The problem with trying to separate these examples is that they overlap.  Action #1 would still be the first Superman if he only appeared in a single story page without dialogue.  It's like saying which qualifies as breakfast?  A) Scrambled eggs, bacon, and toast or B) Scrambled eggs?  If you vote for B, you're also voting for A.

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1 hour ago, meshuggah said:

No matter what our thoughts are the market will always drive which book really matters when it comes to resale value. 

But it is these discussions, and countless others like it, which influence what the market thinks, and therefore drives. 

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15 hours ago, musicmeta said:

Now, the market dictated that Hulk 181 is more desirable and more valuable.  Fine..But the VERY FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE WOLVERINE was Hulk 180...Case closed to me.

It's because, as a hobby, we bastardized the term 'first appearance' to mean 'most significant and collected introductory issue' of a character.  But, yeah, literally, there's no debating Hulk 180.

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Not a popular opinion, but to me the first appearance is the first published image of a character period. Teaser, ad, last panel hand wave, whatever. If that's the first time they appeared, that is their first appearance. You could say I'm an IH 180 kinda guy.

That being said I am in the vast minority on this in both collector opinion and market value.

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2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Indeed.

OK, just wanted to be clear.  It confused me because I thought you had said multiple panels are required.  I agree, he's there and he had dialogue, which satisfies the need to be a part of the story.  Which is an essential part of visual storytelling.

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14 minutes ago, SteppinRazor said:

It confused me because I thought you had said multiple panels are required.

As I made clear in my followup post about Superman #75, the only reason multiple panels (or, in some cases, pages) are required is because comics are sequential art: meaning they tell a story through static (as opposed to motion) pictures and words. Since you cannot tell a story with a single panel, by the very definition of SEQUENTIAL art, then at least 2 (and almost always more) panels are necessary....that doesn't mean, as you initially took it, that the character in question has to appear in 2 or more panels. It just means that they need to appear in the context of a story.

A single panel/page/pinup/image, without a surrounding story to put it in context, is not an appearance, as that term has been defined by the comic collecting hobby for decades. "Appearance" does NOT mean the literal, actual depiction of someone or something. It means the context in which they first appear as intended by their creators.

For example: Luke Skywalker appears all over the place before Star Wars comes out. Posters, books, EVEN THE COMIC BOOK titled "Star Wars" and published by Marvel Comics.

BUT...his first APPEARANCE is in the film "Star Wars." Why? Because Luke Skywalker is, first and foremost, a FILM character...not a literary (like Harry Potter) character, nor a comic book character, nor a radio character, etc. Did the depiction of Luke appear all over the place before the film? Of course. You bet. But his first APPEARANCE is in the FILM "Star Wars."

( lol Now watch all the raging fanboys talk about my "personal" definition of something that is intuitively obvious, and already suggested by folks like Will Eisner and Scott McCloud.)

Context is everything.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus
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I'm calling first appearance when the character utters their iconic phrase eg Hey Bub or its clobberin time.

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