Poll: First Appearance Criteria 1 1

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

To me, from a Market perspective, the introduction for the first time of a character, which the business entity hopes inspires the customer/collector/buyer to be interested in the character after it is first introduced and makes the customer want to purchase follow-on publications, defines a first appearance/introduction, etc. I don't think that necessarily has to be a drawing of the character; it could be a brief background/story line presentation also. I do think that first introduction has to give the character a name, though. 

[Krydel4]

1 hour ago, FineCollector said:

I think everyone is closer than it sounds, but we're mixing language here.  If you mention "cameo," you also have to use the other wording that went with it in the old price guides,  "introduction."  "First appearance" can relate to either one of those, but isnt necessarily defined by one or the other.

Hulk 180 is Wolverine's first appearance. It was a cameo appearance, in that you had no idea who he was, it was just a teaser.  The money book is 181, because that's when you get "introduced" to what Wolverine is all about.  I've made the analogy to steak dinner before: 180 is the appetizer, 181 is the steak and side, 182 is dessert.  No one minds if you skip dessert, but you're not sitting down for just an artichoke dip.

The question then is, what's more important to collectors now, first appearance on a story page, or the first meaningful interaction now that fewer people are reading the stories in their plastic tombs?

I don't think that Wolverine was more fully formed of a character in 181s introduction than 180. The last page in 180 gives you all the info you need to know about him and what he is about. He then proceeds to demonstrate that in 181. I would say that the true character that we know as Wolverine didn't appear until Claremont and Byrne got ahold of him. The cover is what drives the hype of 181 not Wolverine's characterization. 180 gives you way more info about Wolverine's character than say Bishop's First Appearance in Uncanny X-men 282 who has a cover appearance. 

[valiantman]

3 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Hulk 180 is Wolverine's "first appearance," as it is the first time Wolverine appears in a story.  What causes people confusion is that they think that what people are willing to pay for a comic defines what constitutes a first appearance.  That's B.S.  Hulk 180 used to be more valuable than Hulk 181 (some of you are probably shocked right now, but it is true and verifiable).  The market ultimately decided that Hulk 181 was the cooler and therefore more valuable book because Wolverine appeared on the cover and was the focus of the story.  This caused some folks confusion, so they started calling Hulk 181 the "first appearance" to justify the higher price.  All they really needed to do was call 181 the "cooler book."

That's a good summary of what happened, though I doubt using the term "cooler book" would get us anywhere.  "Most valuable early appearance" might be a better option, since it's factual, and it implies that it might be the first appearance or it might not.  Hulk #180 and Hulk #181 are straight-forward, since both books are a discussion of appearances that occur during the story.

I think "most valuable early appearance" would help with situations like Spawn, where there are preview books and advertisements for Spawn that cost a lot more than Spawn #1 because there are (literally) a million Spawn #1s.  Those higher priced ad books are NOT first appearances, but they are definitely "valuable early appearances", and whichever one wins the price battle gets to be "most valuable early appearance".  The absolute 1st appearance for Spawn will always be Spawn #1, and it's likely that Spawn #1 will always be the least valuable of the earliest Spawn appearances.  We need a term that can handle even this situation, since it represents such an extreme.

Edited September 7, 2018 by valiantman

[AGGIEZ]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Answer:  Neither.  It's the cover.

Don’t ask Bishop...

[SteppinRazor]

On 9/6/2018 at 1:51 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

And before someone gets kinky and tries to claim "You CAN tell a story in a single panel, you just need words!"...I will point out that that is NOT sequential art, but illustrated prose.

Not the same thing.

Indeed, you can have sequential art with no words.  Or even a story.

[Ryan.]

TMNT 1 > Gobbledygook 1

[valiantman]

22 hours ago, kav said:

I'm calling first appearance when the character utters their iconic phrase eg Hey Bub or its clobberin time.

That's only the first appearance of their iconic phrase. 

[AGGIEZ]

On 9/7/2018 at 2:53 PM, valiantman said:

That's only the first appearance of their iconic phrase. 

What's the 1st appearance of "Sweet Christmas!"...?

[valiantman]

2 minutes ago, AGGIEZ said:

On 9/7/2018 at 2:53 PM, valiantman said:

That's only the first appearance of their iconic phrase. 

What's the 1st appearance of "Sweet Christmas!"...?

Power Man #27

[mysterio]

So what’s the first appearance of the Red Hulk?

[ADAMANTIUM]

9 minutes ago, mysterio said:

So what’s the first appearance of the Red Hulk?

Hulk 1 2008, I think

Of course there are variants and such... reason I remember is I bought a regular cover at the con in Dallas earlier this year.... it's about all I could afford toward the end of the con

 

[mysterio]

35 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Hulk 1 2008, I think

Of course there are variants and such... reason I remember is I bought a regular cover at the con in Dallas earlier this year.... it's about all I could afford toward the end of the con

 

I think so, and the market seems to think so, but he appears only on the cover of #1 and doesn’t make it into a story until #2.

[ADAMANTIUM]

4 minutes ago, mysterio said:

I think so, and the market seems to think so, but he appears only on the cover of #1 and doesn’t make it into a story until #2.

Good to know, I still haven't read it yet though, I wonder if the #1 Cover still references the inside at all then? Maybe they somehow see what's coming in issue #2. Now that I think about it, was red hulk the first to have cover appearance only?

[Krydel4]

Looks like the "Appearance in Single story page without dialogue, No Cover appearance" have it. Like many posters and my experience has seen the comic book collectors value a character from their first ,however brief appearance, within the story. Talking with a couple other LCS owners/dealers since my first posting of the poll they unequivocally said that unless the character appears in more than few pages they will steer their customers towards a second appearance with a cover or Cover only using the "first full appearance" terminology and price it as such. It's just easier for them to sell the books as a cover is the advertising for the book rather than "wasting time educating" customers on the character. I had hoped a few of the dealers who frequent the board would have chimed in and given a business perspective as well but I think it's pretty standard practice.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Krydel4
Clarity

[Brian48]

I think it gets more confusing when you have characters whose first appearance features them as someone entirely different than the character they've become later on.  Carol Danvers versus Ms/Capt Marvel is such case.  Maybe to a lesser extent, Misty Knight.