Book with blown staple gets a 6.5 1 1

[WalkinWillie]

I bought a book from another dealer at a local comic show - Batman #232 in CGC 6.5

I just sold the book on eBay and the buyer initiated a return. I asked them why and they said that it had a blown staple which when I looked at the scan, especially the back cover scan it was sure enough there. I purchased the CGC grader notes (absolutely HATE that I have to buy them but that's another story...) and sure enough they said the following:

light creasing to cover
light spine stress lines to cover
staple detached bottom of cover

I'm feeling a little ashamed that I did not catch that. I don't think the dealer tried to get one over on me because he has a good rep and again it is my responsibility to look the book over carefully.. I know what I am going to do though - just auction the book at a starting price of $0.99 instead of fixed price and include the official grader notes in the auction description.

My question to the board is: Should a book with a blown staple merit a 6.5 grade? And before you answer I would appreciate it if you look at the book - the front cover scan is followed by the back cover scan and the link is above in the first sentence..

Thanks in advance for those taking the time to answer.

[Bomber-Bob]

I'm not sure what you are asking, are you implying a 6.5 is too high for this book ? If the book was truly high grade, it would have received a Qualified label for the staple. Being a mid grade book, I suppose the staple counted against the grade but probably not much more than a tick or two. I think CGC should list this type of flaw on the label. It is very difficult to ascertain without the book in hand.

[The Lions Den]

I'm sorry this situation caused a problem for you. Unfortunately, this is a very common problem with DC books from this era. It looks like a nice copy even with the staple pull. It seems to me this type of flaw used to be put on the label , but maybe CGC changed their stance on this. As Bomber-Bob says, it's always a good idea to carefully examine a book before you buy, even when they're certified...

[davet75]

9 hours ago, WalkinWillie said:

I bought a book from another dealer at a local comic show - Batman #232 in CGC 6.5

I just sold the book on eBay and the buyer initiated a return. I asked them why and they said that it had a blown staple which when I looked at the scan, especially the back cover scan it was sure enough there. I purchased the CGC grader notes (absolutely HATE that I have to buy them but that's another story...) and sure enough they said the following:

light creasing to cover
light spine stress lines to cover
staple detached bottom of cover

I'm feeling a little ashamed that I did not catch that. I don't think the dealer tried to get one over on me because he has a good rep and again it is my responsibility to look the book over carefully.. I know what I am going to do though - just auction the book at a starting price of $0.99 instead of fixed price and include the official grader notes in the auction description.

My question to the board is: Should a book with a blown staple merit a 6.5 grade? And before you answer I would appreciate it if you look at the book - the front cover scan is followed by the back cover scan and the link is above in the first sentence..

Thanks in advance for those taking the time to answer.

This is another case of "Technical Overstreet" grade  =/=  CGC grade.

Overstreet grading:

7.0 slight staple tears allowed

6.0 - 5.0 minor staple tears allowed

4.0  moderate staple tears allowed

3.0  Cover may be loose or even detached at one staple.

There have been numerous discussions with an abundance of evidence that CGC grading does not follow Overstreet on several major issues like staple pulls and missing pieces, but rather employs a formula something like this:  Overall general appearance grade - (defects x fuzzy grading factor) =  CGC grade.  That is clearly what happened in this case.  I would guess their grading went something like this: overall appearance 7.5 - (pulled cover staple x fuzzy batman #232 staple coefficient) = 6.5 CGC grade

 

If interested, here is a link to a discussion with similar topic of CGC vs technical grading but regarding missing cover piece:

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by davet75

[Gnasher]

From your pictures, it is more evident on the back cover that there is a problem with the staple. As to it being a 6.5, I'd say it's the staple that's kept it there, otherwise it would have been higher, the other flaws being minimal. It's a nice looking book. 

[WalkinWillie]

5 hours ago, davet75 said:

This is another case of "Technical Overstreet" grade  =/=  CGC grade.

@davet75 - Thanks for the reply. You spelled out in more detail what was in my mind - i.e. that CGC and Overstreet have different grading criteria. Yeah, I'm kicking myself for not spotting the blown staple but I never thought in a million years that a 6.5 would have a blown staple. My thinking has always been that a VG 4.0 would be as high as a book with that type of defect could go - and Overstreet intimates a 3.0 is the highest grade. I've learned a lesson and will be a whole lot more vigilant.

[Tony S]

It's a CGC 6.5. The largest, oldest and best known grading company says it's a 6.5. It was assigned that grade knowing that the bottom staple was detached. Someone else will buy it.  

[Ride the Tiger]

I would say this falls under the "you grade the whole book" statement. It would seem unfair in certain situations where you have a beautiful book and have to drop the book 8 to 10 grade increments just because of 1 flaw. Now obviously that flaw would or should not be something that takes away from how the book presents itself i.e. if the cover has water damage its probably going to grade pretty low. A loose staple on the other hand isn't always seen and doesn't kill the overall appearance in the same way a rippled cover from water damage would. Its one of them what do you do situations.

[jharvey]

I have an Incredible Hulk #180 with a popped staple, and it is CGC 6.5 also. If not for the popped staple, the Hulk #180 would have been 9.0 or higher.

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, jharvey said:

I have an Incredible Hulk #180 with a popped staple, and it is CGC 6.5 also. If not for the popped staple, the Hulk #180 would have been 9.0 or higher.

Actually, a popped staple is a general, broad stroked term and each situation needs to be evaluated. It can be detached from the front cover only, back cover only, or completely detached. The severity of the tear at the point of detachment matters also. If the book is given a Blue label, that means the severity of the flaw comes into play. You could be grading a flaw with a half inch tear through the cover. In that light 6.5, sounds reasonable. I'm not sure of the grade cutoff where they decide to assign a Green Label or Blue Label but I would think if your book was truly 9.0 or higher, you would have received a Green Label ?

[jharvey]

39 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Actually, a popped staple is a general, broad stroked term and each situation needs to be evaluated. It can be detached from the front cover only, back cover only, or completely detached. The severity of the tear at the point of detachment matters also. If the book is given a Blue label, that means the severity of the flaw comes into play. You could be grading a flaw with a half inch tear through the cover. In that light 6.5, sounds reasonable. I'm not sure of the grade cutoff where they decide to assign a Green Label or Blue Label but I would think if your book was truly 9.0 or higher, you would have received a Green Label ?

 

Well, take a look for yourself. These pics are high resolution.

Edited September 9, 2018 by jharvey

[Bomber-Bob]

3 hours ago, jharvey said:

 

Well, take a look for yourself. These pics are high resolution.

Nice book but I do see some spine creases, including a pretty big double pronged V shape  in the dark area above the lower staple. The top left corner looks to have a bend and the bottom left corner looks soft. The also appears to be an inch long horizontal crease at the bottom left. Also, the popped staple does not look bindery with creases and tears around that area. It has great eye appeal for a 6.5 with strong cover colors, but I stand by my statement that if the book was high grade, it would get a Green Label. 

[SBRobin]

Is it not possible to reinsert a staple manually and bend it back into place without anyone knowing it was ever popped? If the pages around it aren't torn it seems like something that could be done?

[Ride the Tiger]

1 minute ago, SBRobin said:

Is it not possible to reinsert a staple manually and bend it back into place without anyone knowing it was ever popped? If the pages around it aren't torn it seems like something that could be done?

That is what we pay the restoration expert for. To be able to spot stuff like that and make sure its known before final grade is given.

[SBRobin]

Does cgc use a restoration expert on all books or just high value ones?  And unless the staple is replaced.with a newer one, how are they able to tell? Is it considered restoration if the same staple is reinserted and bent back down? I have no experience with loose staples, just asking out of curiosity. I think I would try to fix it if I saw a loose staple. Unless of course that would result in a purple label.

Edited September 9, 2018 by SBRobin

[The Lions Den]

3 hours ago, SBRobin said:

Does cgc use a restoration expert on all books or just high value ones?  And unless the staple is replaced.with a newer one, how are they able to tell? Is it considered restoration if the same staple is reinserted and bent back down? I have no experience with loose staples, just asking out of curiosity. I think I would try to fix it if I saw a loose staple. Unless of course that would result in a purple label.

It's true that all the books certified by CGC are looked at by a restoration detection expert, but on the lower value books that person may also be one of the graders of the book, too. There are ways to tell if a staple has been replaced, but if the staple replacement has been done professionally (which requires using the original type of staple for the book) it's sometimes harder to tell, although a trained professional can usually spot the difference. If the staple replacement has been done professionally and meets all of the strict CGC guidelines, it is possible the book could receive a Conserved label instead of a Purple label. And there are books out there with replaced or cleaned staples that received a Qualified label, which was how CGC used to handle staple replacement issues before the restoration guidelines were revised. Since I've been actively researching this issue, I would appreciate additional input if anyone here knows of any specific instances where the aforementioned procedure was deviated from since the restoration guidelines were revised in 2014...thank you! 

Edited September 10, 2018 by The Lions Den

[The Lions Den]

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 2:37 AM, davet75 said:

There have been numerous discussions with an abundance of evidence that CGC grading does not follow Overstreet on several major issues like staple pulls and missing pieces, but rather employs a formula something like this:  Overall general appearance grade - (defects x fuzzy grading factor) =  CGC grade.  That is clearly what happened in this case.  I would guess their grading went something like this: overall appearance 7.5 - (pulled cover staple x fuzzy batman #232 staple coefficient) = 6.5 CGC grade

At CGC, the entire book is evaluated and all the different factors are taken into account. There are specific criteria which can keep a book out of certain grades. I would guess in the above case, most folks would want the lower graded blue label book as opposed to a higher graded green label book. And if the book had been awarded the qualified label, there would have been a notation on the label in capitals that described the detachment issue. 

[Bomber-Bob]

3 hours ago, SBRobin said:

Is it not possible to reinsert a staple manually and bend it back into place without anyone knowing it was ever popped? If the pages around it aren't torn it seems like something that could be done?

Usually, if a staple is popped, the paper under the staple on the cover has been torn. Look at the example above with the Hulk 180. That is why you often see glue or tape on a restored book because someone tried to reattach the staple AND repair the paper. Now a detached staple at the centerfold is a different story and sometimes the staple can be reinserted. 

[davet75]

2 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

At CGC, the entire book is evaluated and all the different factors are taken into account. There are specific criteria which can keep a book out of certain grades. I would guess in the above case, most folks would want the lower graded blue label book as opposed to a higher graded green label book. And if the book had been awarded the qualified label, there would have been a notation on the label in capitals that described the detachment issue. 

CGC's use of Green label (apparent grade with green label and noted defect) vs. Blue / Universal label (all defects account into grade) has been a bit of a puzzle to many.  Some people have stated you can specifically  request to have your defect factored into a blue label grade (many have stated this is untrue).  Some have stated that only very high grade books generally get a green label (also untrue, see below).  Given the desirability of the blue label, i'd think that if it were actually possible, most if not all submitters would request the Blue label with the grade hit.  There is one example that may shed some light on the Green vs Blue label decision. 

Ms. Marvel #1 is a book that had a large number of known bindery defects where one of the staples would be popped from the cover at the bindery or soon after.  Thus there were a large number of near mint copies that shipped and were sold with the known defect.  This is recognized at CGC and MANY copies of Ms. Marvel #1 that are otherwise in the NM grade but have the defect are given the Green label noting the staple defect.  HOWEVER, there are also quite a few Ms. Marvel #1 copies that are mid grade with a Green label.  Perhaps because this is a known bindery defect that occurred on a relatively large scale that even mid grades with a popped staple get the Green label?  See the Ebay link below (hope it works, or just do advanced search for "Ms. Marvel #1 qualified" and check the "sold listings" box) for the MANY sold copies with Green label and the staple defect. 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=ms+marvel+%231+qualified&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=06901&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=1&_sop=13&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1&_fosrp=1

 

As others in the thread have noted, the OP's Batman 232 and the IH 180 above have staple tears around the pull, suggesting that the staple pull was due to reader wear and not a bindery defect.  Bindery staple pops occur when the stapler hits the book with too much force, thus making the staple body (the flat part of the staple you see on the spine) punch clean through the cover (and sometimes the first and second wraps, which is also indicated on a few of the Ms. Marvel #1 Qualified copies) and leaving little to no staple tears or stress lines.

Edited September 10, 2018 by davet75

[The Lions Den]

10 hours ago, davet75 said:

As others in the thread have noted, the OP's Batman 232 and the IH 180 above have staple tears around the pull, suggesting that the staple pull was due to reader wear and not a bindery defect.  Bindery staple pops occur when the stapler hits the book with too much force, thus making the staple body (the flat part of the staple you see on the spine) punch clean through the cover (and sometimes the first and second wraps, which is also indicated on a few of the Ms. Marvel #1 Qualified copies) and leaving little to no staple tears or stress lines.

Very good information---thank you!