• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Keeping your collection private
4 4

204 posts in this topic

30 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

I think these are the 2 prevailing definitions that people loosely associate with the term. 

I have always thought of a black hole collection as one that is unknown to the hobby - I imagine Hulk 1 and other rare gems being in this category

More recently it seems that people are talking about collectors that buy and never sell as being a black hole. I would (to this point) qualify for this category 

Maybe we have 50 shades of black hole collectors

 

 

When I think of "Black Hole" collections.  I think of collections that are out of view, the hidden collections that no one knows about, or only a select few (queue the cabal)

If they sell, it's under the secrecy of night at a modern day speakeasy with no signs out front where you need a code-word to get in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I recall there was a thread (last year?) that had a substantial discussion about the black hole definition and connotations (with varying views).  I view the term to generally describe two prototypical types of collectors (YMMV and exceptions/variations of course exist):

1.  There are truly off-the-grid collectors that the auction houses may know of because of their recent or historical purchases but they are otherwise completely or mostly disconnected from the community (other than sometimes knowing a single person or very small number of collectors who are connected).  The fact that they are disconnected also means they do not generally go to conventions or shows and usually don't interact with the dealers much if at all (although they might know a dealer from back in the day---I'm sure that Bechara knows several collectors who are now disconnected from the community).  Even the Cabal does not know many of them (although each Cabal member may confidentially know one or several).  While these collectors generally don't trade (as they'd have to be connected to the community to do so), we don't know the extent to which they currently buy or sell through the auction houses (or consign or sell to someone like Bechara).

2.  A collector who is somewhat connected to the community (eg, they may go a local show/convention once a year and/or email privately with a small number of other collectors) but chooses to keep most if not all of their collection private (eg, someone who is not on CAF or who used to post a lot on CAF but then took down their collection years ago) and who rarely (if ever) sells or trades anything from their collection.  I know/have known about 10 collectors like this and I view them as black holes because they are very private and do not share the majority of what they own (unless you recall from years ago or have your old emails with them when they were more transparent) and it is virtually impossible to obtain a quality piece even if you knew of it (the proverbial "I'm going to die with my art") (and some of these collectors have basically migrated to category 1 or gotten out of the hobby). 

Maybe some people think there's is a third category of someone who just doesn't sell anything (Dave @JadeGiant believes he may be one) but I don't view not selling as the sole criteria.  Part of being a black hole is that one cannot see inside it, not just that things don't escape from it. 

Edit:  Oh thinking about it, the inverse is true as well.  I know of several collectors whose collections are kept very secret and even the Cabal does not know everything they own :)but they do regularly or semi-regularly sell and/or trade or make their new acquisitions known to a select few -- I do not view them as black holes either. 

Edited by Ironmandrd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Ironmandrd said:

As I recall there was a thread (last year?) that had a substantial discussion about the black hole definition and connotations (with varying views).  I view the term to generally describe two prototypical types of collectors (YMMV and exceptions/variations of course exist):

1.  There are truly off-the-grid collectors that the auction houses may know of because of their recent or historical purchases but they are otherwise completely or mostly disconnected from the community (other than sometimes knowing a single person or very small number of collectors who are connected).  The fact that they are disconnected also means they do not generally go to conventions or shows and usually don't interact with the dealers much if at all (although they might know a dealer from back in the day---I'm sure that Bechara knows several collectors who are now disconnected from the community).  Even the Cabal does not know many of them (although each Cabal member may confidentially know one or several).  While these collectors generally don't trade (as they'd have to be connected to the community to do so), we don't know the extent to which they currently buy or sell through the auction houses (or consign or sell to someone like Bechara).

2.  A collector who is somewhat connected to the community (eg, they may go a local show/convention once a year and/or email privately with a small number of other collectors) but chooses to keep most if not all of their collection private (eg, someone who is not on CAF or who used to post a lot on CAF but then took down their collection years ago) and who rarely (if ever) sells or trades anything from their collection.  I know/have known about 10 collectors like this and I view them as black holes because they are very private and do not share the majority of what they own (unless you recall from years ago or have your old emails with them when they were more transparent) and it is virtually impossible to obtain a quality piece even if you knew of it (the proverbial "I'm going to die with my art") (and some of these collectors have basically migrated to category 1 or gotten out of the hobby). 

Maybe some people think there's is a third category of someone who just doesn't sell anything (Dave @JadeGiant believes he may be one) but I don't view not selling as the sole criteria.  Part of being a black hole is that one cannot see inside it, not just that things don't escape from it. 

Edit:  Oh thinking about it, the inverse is true as well.  I know of several collectors whose collections are kept very secret and even the Cabal does not know everything they own :)but they do regularly or semi-regularly sell and/or trade or make their new acquisitions known to a select few -- I do not view them as black holes either. 

Good stuff. I can see the distinction here. As a point of clarity, I don't personally think of myself as a black hole collector in any way as I love to talk about art, especially when it comes to the Hulk and history of the character in comics. I don't have an issue sharing/discussing my collection and love to hear about what other people collect/own. It is great to meet someone who has a collection that is some degree of a black hole = sharing Hulk art not posted anywhere online and not seen by my eyes before. 

16 minutes ago, malvin said:

I always thought black hole just meant it goes in without coming out.  I didn't think it necessarily meant no one knows what is in there.

Of course that is just the definition I formed when I saw the term (and the context it was used) for the first time.

Malvin

I think this is more of an emerging definition / perspective and describes my collecting habits to date. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me it's all about information.

When posting on CAF, I signal : "this page exists" "it belongs to me" "if you want it, you will have to wait or make me a crazy offer" "if you're Scott Dunbier and you need a scan of this for your book about (add random comic book superstar's name from whom I wish I had a page), here I am"

And, of course, it's cool to feel validated when someone likes a page you own ... 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

Good stuff. I can see the distinction here. As a point of clarity, I don't personally think of myself as a black hole collector in any way as I love to talk about art, especially when it comes to the Hulk and history of the character in comics. I don't have an issue sharing/discussing my collection and love to hear about what other people collect/own. It is great to meet someone who has a collection that is some degree of a black hole = sharing Hulk art not posted anywhere online and not seen by my eyes before. 

I think this is more of an emerging definition / perspective and describes my collecting habits to date. 

Sorry if I misconstrued your prior sentence "More recently it seems that people are talking about collectors that buy and never sell as being a black hole. I would (to this point) qualify for this category."  to mean you thought you might be a black hole.  I didn't view you as a black hole for the reason I stated (and your reasons above).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently witnessed a conversation unfold on FB about a piece I have owned for 20 years. It was humorous to realize that so much new blood had entered the market that few knew I had it. The old guard (who are largely detached) know, of course. During this conversation someone posted that they heard of who owned it and described the piece as being in a "profound black hole collection." Of course, I didn't post to this thread ;) I found the wording amusing, however.

 

Furthering muddying the waters, although I do buy and sell quite a bit there are certain pieces that I would never sell pretty much ever under any circumstances because they basically define my core identity as a collector. These are pieces that if lost to theft I would beat the bushes to find (insurance money is irrelevant) or if lost to fire might kill the collecting virus in me for good. I imagine we all may have 1-2 pieces in our collections like this. So while my collection is not a blackhole, certain pieces I own have fallen into one. In addition, as one ages and your income increases, the difference between FMV and what makes your wallet smile also increases. So I could 10x or even 50x my money on this piece and not even be tempted. 

 

Edited by cstojano
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I view a black hole collection to be one where art goes in, but doesn't come out (which used to be how my collection was, but, hasn't been for the past 5 or so years), as opposed to being a collection that is undetectable to the naked eye.  How do others define it?  The former?  The latter?  The former + the latter? 

Unless a blackhole collection defines art that goes in but doesn't come out (as in, it is not sold or traded) and is naked to the eye once captured, then metaphors are being mixed and narratives are confused... which is likely par for the course for this hobby considering other terms like 'grail.'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only ever thought the metaphor of a black hole collection followed the understanding of it's namesake's defining characteristics in popular understanding.

i.e.
1. You can not see it with the naked eye.
2.Once something goes in, it does not come out.

Any other "interpretations" are missing the point of the metaphor and are using the term incorrectly.

FWIW, the same goes with the term "Grail", i.e. the reference to the Hold Grail... THE cup Jesus drank from during the last supper, and more importantly, it's reference within the Arthur legend and referencing trying to find it, or having found it. The point being some folks have that ONE illusive piece of work that they are chasing, or on a quest to acquire. There can't be "grails" plural. It defies the entire purpose of the metaphor. It's a typical misuse of the term, not unlike the love of using the word literally when they don't actually mean literally, etc.

When folks say something like "I found another grail", it speaks more of their understanding of the language and their collecting habits (and hyperbole) than it does of the piece they've picked up. ;)

Ultimately it's not a huge deal, but some of us do notice and it may effect the way in which we evaluate someone's opinions on topics.
My .02¢

:slapfight:

Edited by ESeffinga
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

I only ever thought the metaphor of a black hole collection followed the understanding of it's namesake's defining characteristics in popular understanding.

i.e.
1. You can not see it with the naked eye.
2.Once something goes in, it does not come out.

Any other "interpretations" are missing the point of the metaphor and are using the term incorrectly.

FWIW, the same goes with the term "Grail", i.e. the reference to the Hold Grail... THE cup Jesus drank from during the last supper, and more importantly, it's reference within the Arthur legend and referencing trying to find it, or having found it. The point being some folks have that ONE illusive piece of work that they are chasing, or on a quest to acquire. There can't be "grails" plural. It defies the entire purpose of the metaphor. It's a typical misuse of the term, not unlike the love of using the word literally when they don't actually mean literally, etc.

When folks say something like "I found another grail", it speaks more of their understanding of the language and their collecting habits (and hyperbole) than it does of the piece they've picked up. ;)

Ultimately it's not a huge deal, but some of us do notice and it may effect the way in which we evaluate someone's opinions on topics.
My .02¢

:slapfight:

I understand what you mean about the term grail however....since many of us have different characters or genres we love, there can be many “grail” pieces. Also some people focus their collection on certain artists. Obviously with that there can be various grails as well.

And the other part is as we age and our eye becomes more discerning, what we once saw as a grail may not be anymore. I know my tastes have changed from my early collecting days to now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are favorites and then there is a grail. There wasn’t more than one Jesus cup. It was the be all end all quest. 

If you have many interests and many favorites in categories, that’s totally great. Using the word Grail plural is simply a misunderstanding misapplication of the point of the term. It’s not supposed to be subcategorized or tiered in an org chart. It is a single pinnacle item.

 

FWIW, I too have favorites in many categories. And as such I don’t believe I have a grail, as there is no single one quest piece for me. For some folks there is. And all others pieces are ancillary/subordinate to it. 

Edited by ESeffinga
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, AnkurJ said:

I understand what you mean about the term grail however....since many of us have different characters or genres we love, there can be many “grail” pieces. Also some people focus their collection on certain artists. Obviously with that there can be various grails as well.

And the other part is as we age and our eye becomes more discerning, what we once saw as a grail may not be anymore. I know my tastes have changed from my early collecting days to now. 

I prefer this understanding of grail.  For example, Dinesh Shamdasani has obtained several grail-level pieces over the last couple months.  :cloud9:   ( Although he may have not personally thrown around the "grail" tag on any of them.  )

If you see this as a misuse of the "grail" term - then we as collectors should coin a new phrase to define these extremely important/influential examples, and retire "grail" from our lexicon - as most admit "grail pages" do not exist (similar to the true cup of Jesus, despite Dr Jones' research). 

Otherwise we will continue to use "grail" to the dissatisfaction of others.  :baiting:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Catwoman_Fan said:

I prefer this understanding of grail.  For example, Dinesh Shamdasani has obtained several grail-level pieces over the last couple months.  :cloud9:   ( Although he may have not personally thrown around the "grail" tag on any of them.  )

If you see this as a misuse of the "grail" term - then we as collectors should coin a new phrase to define these extremely important/influential examples, and retire "grail" from our lexicon - as most admit "grail pages" do not exist (similar to the true cup of Jesus, despite Dr Jones' research). 

Otherwise we will continue to use "grail" to the dissatisfaction of others.  :baiting:

A while ago I suggested the term: Crown Jewels.

Each is important, valuable and irreplaceable, but there's more than one (and like Pokemon you can try to collect them all)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see it as Grail (the one and only) vs.grail (one of potentially several cornerstone/key pieces)

There is "the" Grail and never "a" Grail.

There is "a" grail but never "the" grail. 

I agree that Grail/grail in any form is overused in this hobby.  But, used very infrequently and in its proper context, I do not mind the colloquial use of "grail" to refer to a very, very, very select/small number of major desired pieces. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great thing about this and most hobbies....you decide how you want to collect. Something can be a grail to you and be meaningless to another person. And you may choose to post pics, videos etc or not to share anything. That is the great thing about collecting. There is no right or wrong way to do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, AnkurJ said:

Great thing about this and most hobbies....you decide how you want to collect. Something can be a grail to you and be meaningless to another person. And you may choose to post pics, videos etc or not to share anything. That is the great thing about collecting. There is no right or wrong way to do it.

You echo the discussion long ago on the NGC Boards. Your position was the same then, and I concurred then as I do now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good stuff. I also agree that the term Grail has a pretty specific meaning and it almost never gets used as such. I also agree that grail in the context of this hobby has a different meaning and I don’t mind that at all. I do raise an eyebrow for those collectors that are often posting about acquiring another grail or seeking several grails. To each their own.

Here’s a real conundrum …. What do you do when you know or suspect that your grail is in a black hole collection. How do you find or acquire your G-Hole piece of art?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
4 4