How did speculators obtain multiple copies of comics in the 60s? 3 3

[RockMyAmadeus]

No wrong answers, here, just looking for experiences from people who were there:

How did speculators, generally acknowledged to have started around 1965, obtain multiple copies of books? Since there wasn't a "Direct market", and you had to buy what was available at whatever vendors you had in your area, how did they obtain those multiples?

Did they haunt newsstands? If so, would that have disrupted business that would have angered vendors, who didn't have copies to sell to other customers? Was it mainly an aftermarket thing? 

Say, for example, Iron Man #1, which was published in February of 1968. Speculators would have known of this issue if they read Marvel comics from the previous month. Were they able to "order" copies from the newsstand vendor? How did that work? There's language about "reserving your copy with your local vendor today!", but was that available, or did you have to have a relationship with your particular vendor? Could vendors also "order" specific copies from their distributor, or was it a "you get what you get" situation?

Thanks!

[sfcityduck]

I've not heard that there were "speculators," as I understand that term, in 1965.  What's the source of this info?

To be clear, I don't doubt that there were some astute collectors buying an extra copy or two for their collections in the mid-1960s.  They could easily do that anywhere comics were sold (which back then was corner stores, newsstands, grocery stores, etc.).   But, I don't call that speculation.  There was not the kind of "hot market" that led to the runaway "speculation" we saw in the early 80s.  (Anyone else remember "Comic Values Monthly" and other hype publications that sought to push up the value of comics within weeks of publication?).

I have heard that Shazam 1 (2/73) was the first heavily speculated book, as I understand that term, with folks buying up cases of that book.  A quick internet search reveals Mark Waid saying: "Today, it’s typical for collectors to horde copies of new books in hope that they’ll go up in value. Back then, it was a new idea – and Shazam! #1, with Captain Marvel reintroduced on the cover by Superman himself, was one of the first books that fans just had to have."  Waid said he bought two copies when the book came out (he was 10).  Michael Uslan, who was 22 at the time, says he bought 12 copies.  As a result Shazam 1 is not worth much. 

It was the Dazzler 1 (ouch!) of the early 1970s generation of comic collectors.  

But, "speculators" in 1965?  I haven't heard that.  I have read that there were a LOT of people who had come to appreciate that comics (really GA comics) had some value due to media reports.  1964 is often cited by guys who know as the line of demarcation when comics were saved in much much greater numbers than before because of the proliferation of comic collectors and the realization by more and more people that they had some value. 

Still, guys I talk to who were collecting in the 1960s tell stories about being able to amass collections comprising tens of thousands of comics (GA included), and they were working class, because they knew what others didn't and cared about comics more.  Those guys also seem to be the ones who hold most of what they have (or became dealers), but I haven't talked to anyone who "speculating" in 1965.

[ninanina]

I have heard over the years from either respected people in the industry and/or reading the forum over the years that specifically Fantastic Four 48 as well as Hulk 102 were purchased in bulk by some individuals so it was at least going on then. More specifically I remember Doug Sulipa in conversation saying he sold multiple copies of Hulk 102 when it came out. And on a relative note, I still have my 200 issues of Dazzler 1.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, ninanina said:

I have heard over the years from either respected people in the industry and/or reading the forum over the years that specifically Fantastic Four 48 as well as Hulk 102 were purchased in bulk by some individuals so it was at least going on then. More specifically I remember Doug Sulipa in conversation saying he sold multiple copies of Hulk 102 when it came out. And on a relative note, I still have my 200 issues of Dazzler 1.

Do you know how they were purchased in bulk? What the procedure for doing so would be? 

[HouseofComics.Com]

The procedure was to contact and befriend the local jobber/distributor/wholesaler, no? This was a trick that persisted into the the 80s where comic book store owners, etc. could go to the newsstand guy (who was a bit behind the direct market) and get all the copies of Thor 337, ASM 252, and Punisher mini #1 after they were instant direct market hits. I first learned of this in 1985 when a store owner in Grand Rapids told me he could get me more copies of Punisher 1 because he'd grabbed 50 or 100 newsstand copies from the local distributor.

 

Also, I've always read that it was the instant success of Conan #1 that led to the heavy speculation in Shazam 1, Shadow 1, even other things like Black Magic 1, Secret Origins 1, etc. Followed of course by Howard the Duck 1.

[TheBook]

I always wondered the same thing.

Suscha News Pedigree/Collection will give some insight.

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/1809/Suscha-News-Collection/

[sfcityduck]

8 hours ago, HouseofComics.Com said:

Also, I've always read that it was the instant success of Conan #1 that led to the heavy speculation in Shazam 1, Shadow 1, even other things like Black Magic 1, Secret Origins 1, etc. Followed of course by Howard the Duck 1.

Yep.  I too have heard that speculation appears to have really begun in the 1970s.  Your Conan story makes perfect sense.  

Edited September 12, 2018 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

I always understood the term "speculator" to refer to someone who is buying a large number of multiple copies of a brand new comics, such as Dazzler 1, in the hope that it will blow up in value and garner a quick return.  

However, in poking around some old threads, I found this comment by Gary "Moondog" C.:

Quote

 

The rise of speculation (or the purchasing of multiple copies) started in late 1965 / early 1966 with Marvels. At that time EVERYONE wanted the early issues of FF and Spidey, etc. and collectors started buying multiples of the new issues in case they too would become valuable. I did it and all my buddies did it too.

 

I don't view buying a few extra copies as the same as "speculating."  To me, it is pretty basic collector behaviour to buy two copies of an issue (a reading copy, and an extra copy for future trading stock). Some folks collect comics to read and enjoy, others to keep untouched for resale or other reasons, and some do both. To me, that's a bit different than buying a case of comics for quick resale when prices spike in a few months, which is what happened in the 80s.

But, if you define "speculating" as buying more than one copy, than Moondog may be the basis for RAM's original post. I don't think Moondog is referring to the mass buying (say the 200 issues of Dazzler 1 a poster referenced up thread) that we refer to as "speculation" today.  But, RAM might want to page him to this thread to get clarification.  Moondog is well-placed to give us the straight scoop.

Gary also posted that there was speculation in the Marvel 1s of 1968.  That may well have included "speculation" like what occurred with Shazam 1.  But, I'd always heard Shazam 1 was the first example of guys buying cases of comics for re-sell.  Gary would know.  Or, at least he would know about his locale.  The guys I've talked to are from the suburban West Coast, not Chicago, and it may have been different in different areas.

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by sfcityduck

[comicartfan]

I know that the Boston Collection, found by Bechara M. contained several copies of the same issue in multiple titles. Seems there may have been some speculating there, but on a small scale.

Edited September 12, 2018 by comicartfan

[kimik]

There was a thread a few years back where some older collectors/store owners were talking about speculating big on the 1968 Marvel "#1s" the Conan #1 and the Adams GL run after the first few issues. 

Personally speaking, I have picked up a number of collections over the years that had multiples (up to 20 copies) of the following:

Nick Fury #1-15

Silver Surfer #1-18 

Iron Man #1-20

Captain America #100 - 120

and then all kinds of late 60s and early 70s Marvel and DC #1s.

 

[HouseofComics.Com]

I think the limit to one's speculation is just funds and ease of finding the stuff. If you were a 60s kid, the speculation might just be that extra copy or three. If you have a job in the early 70s and you can still speculate on Shazam at twenty cents, you can probably grab 50 or 100 copies. If it's 1985, you can just preorder 100 copes of Web of Spider-Man from your LCS for extra discount.

Conan 1 was the first book that really exploded in value right away, so that it became a giant treasure hunt to find copies or even go to the distributor and try to get the returns. Which led to people pre-planning to buy Shazams before release. I have no doubt that some people made a nice profit very quickly buying Iron Man 1 or other 1968 books. I know of kids in Oakland in teh 60s that had 2-3 complete Marvel sets (something that would've never occurred to me as a kid, having multiple copies).

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yes, there are the old stories, which I believe are true, of people essentially hijacking the distribution trucks leaving Sparta with copies of Shazam #1 and paying off the drivers to "lose" those copies.

...which really demonstrates that, even by late 1972, there really was no formal way for buyers to (easily) access multiple copies in advance, or even as they were distributed.

"Buying more than one copy...?" went the convention wisdom. "Why would anyone want to do that...?"

It makes folks like Phil Seuling and Bud Plant look like absolute geniuses for circumventing all of that cumbersome process and creating the Direct market.

[HouseofComics.Com]

Compare to 1983 (or possibly earlier) where you had distributors putting full page ads in CBG with all the comics coming out in three months and you could just meet teh minimums and order. No credit check, no proof of business, nothing. Ads in OPG and CBG are how I got started at age 15.

[sfcityduck]

47 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

It makes folks like Phil Seuling and Bud Plant look like absolute geniuses for circumventing all of that cumbersome process and creating the Direct market.

They were geniuses for creating the direct market.  

We can debate what aspects of the direct market was good for comics, collectors, and the companies.  Certainly, I would not argue that enabling large scale speculation was a good thing (many people lost money on things like Dazzler 1).  Nor would I argue that it was a good thing that the direct market caused the comic companies to exploit some collectors' obsessive desire to own every comic in a particular title by publishing the same issues with different covers.  

Maybe they were evil geniuses.

[jaybes]

12 hours ago, HouseofComics.Com said:

The procedure was to contact and befriend the local jobber/distributor/wholesaler, no? This was a trick that persisted into the the 80s where comic book store owners, etc. could go to the newsstand guy (who was a bit behind the direct market) and get all the copies of Thor 337, ASM 252, and Punisher mini #1 after they were instant direct market hits. I first learned of this in 1985 when a store owner in Grand Rapids told me he could get me more copies of Punisher 1 because he'd grabbed 50 or 100 newsstand copies from the local distributor.

 

Also, I've always read that it was the instant success of Conan #1 that led to the heavy speculation in Shazam 1, Shadow 1, even other things like Black Magic 1, Secret Origins 1, etc. Followed of course by Howard the Duck 1.

Tardy’s?  

[kimik]

Based on a number of OO collections I picked up in the mid to late 00s, there was some level of speculation on the 1968 Marvel #1s/#100s. These the collections had 4 - 6 copies left of the #1s (e.g. Iron Man, Sub-Mariner, Silver Surfer, Nick Fury) and #100s (Captain America #100 and Hulk #102) after the OOs had traded some over the years. One collection I was able to land from an intermediary had 8 - 12 copies of Surfer 1-18, Subby 1-20 or so, Iron man 1-20 or so, Nick Fury 1-15, Cap 100 - 120 or so, Hulk 102 - 120 or so, DD 40 - 60 something, Conan 1-7 and Sgt. Fury issues from that timeframe. The intermediary said he started with 20 copies of each book and had already slabbed and sold off a bunch, but he needed cash fast for another deal. The OO had speculated on a few Marvel titles from 1968 - 1970, buying 20 of each. The books were all beautiful - I slabbed 200 of them hitting 40 something 9.8s (I think it was 44 or 45), 50 some 9.6s, 80 or so 9.4s, and just under 20 9.2s without pressing (I still have a spreadsheet with the serial numbers just in case I can find them someday for a press). The only better book I hit in 9.8 was a copy of Surfer #4 (the person I bought the leftovers from said he hit 2 on his submissions), but it was a fun and weird (I have no idea why the nothing DD and Sgt. Fury runs were in there instead of ASM and FF) mini-collection to buy nonetheless.

[rabidwolf]

Interesting thread and stories 

[zosocane]

2 hours ago, kimik said:

Based on a number of OO collections I picked up in the mid to late 00s, there was some level of speculation on the 1968 Marvel #1s/#100s. 

Fascinating.  Could it be said that Marvel in some ways had a hand in fueling the very earliest comic book speculating in 1968?  Meaning, did the publisher (i.e., Martin Goodman and/or Stan Lee) know that teens/college kids were starting to speculate?  Look at the covers of Iron Man #1 ("BIG PREMIERE ISSUE"), Sub-Mariner #1 ("BIG PREMIERE ISSUE"), Captain America #100 ("BIG PREMIERE ISSUE"), Silver Surfer #1 ("BIG PREMIERE ISSUE"), and Iron Man and the Sub-Mariner #1 ("SPECIAL ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME ISSUE") ...    

[jimjum12]

7 hours ago, HouseofComics.Com said:

I think the limit to one's speculation is just funds and ease of finding the stuff. If you were a 60s kid, the speculation might just be that extra copy or three. If you have a job in the early 70s and you can still speculate on Shazam at twenty cents, you can probably grab 50 or 100 copies. If it's 1985, you can just preorder 100 copes of Web of Spider-Man from your LCS for extra discount.

Conan 1 was the first book that really exploded in value right away, so that it became a giant treasure hunt to find copies or even go to the distributor and try to get the returns. Which led to people pre-planning to buy Shazams before release. I have no doubt that some people made a nice profit very quickly buying Iron Man 1 or other 1968 books. I know of kids in Oakland in teh 60s that had 2-3 complete Marvel sets (something that would've never occurred to me as a kid, having multiple copies).

My friend Chas bought 10 copies of Conan 1 off the rack for investment. He was in College at the time. Last time I saw him he still had all but 1 copy. He slabbed two of them, one at 9.4 and the other a 9.0. He sold the 9.4. While hoarding had become widespread by the modern age, I do remember one trick of mine..... Direct Sale came out a month or so before newsstand copies... so if a book took off, you checked the Grocers and Pharmacies a couple months later and snagged copies at cover price.... I got over 60 copies of ASM 361 like that, among other books. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[HouseofComics.Com]

Had an old school 70s dealer over to my office today and he said that Conan 1 was a $50 or $60 book in 1975. So imagine that kind of appreciation i 4 years for a fifteen cent comic. He told me of a collector who was so smitten with the BWS Conans at the time that he bought three copies of each.