November HA OA auction 3 3

[glendgold]

I'm very curious about the ASM 18 page hitting $216K about 10 days out from the auction.  I'm having trouble wrapping my head around a buyer going with that strategy. 

[batman_fan]

Only thing I am 100% certain of is the item I am trying for will go for a ton of money.  Only real question is whether or not I am the one paying for it 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/13/2018 at 5:32 AM, delekkerste said:

I think this is one where you can throw out the comps!  

I don't think anyone has a clue where this one ends up...I've heard guesses everywhere from $100K to $600K.  I would say most of the guesses have been in the $150-$250K range, but, who knows. It's a situation where the addition or subtraction of even just one likely bidder could result in a massively different outcome.

Master Race is already at $156K, and the big bidders likely have not bid yet.  There are a large number of registered phone bidders. So what's the upper limit on such a piece?  I don't think it exists.  I can see savy collectors and cultural institutions driving the bidding in the live auction to multiples of the $156K it sits at now. Here's why:

Master Race is NOT a pop culture collectable like the vast majority of comic original art.  It is NOT a piece which is artistically devoid of merit and derives significance only because of a character appearance (I'm looking at you Hulk 180).  Master Race is culturally significant and influential FINE ART.  And for bidders on fine art, $150K to 250K is, frankly, chump change.  If, as I think is the case, Master Race attracts fine art bidders (probably institutions), then we could see the price driven up to shocking heights by an epic battle between cultural institutions and comic art collectors.

If any comic book story belongs in a serious museum, it is surely Master Race.  It is accurately referred to as the "Citizen Kane" of comic books.  It's artistic merit is seriously discussed in the serious press.  The first and last pages of that story are arguably the two most influential comic pages ever drawn.  They are a masterpiece of comic art.  In short, the significance, reputation and value for Master Race will likely only grow over time as its influence becomes more and more appreciated, whereas some of the other big ticket comic art faces the prospect of fading as the characters which drive the value of those pages lose popularity and significance.  Yes, people love Wolverine, but Herb Trimpe is no fine artist and one panel depicting a superhero who looks like a refugee from the musical Cats is never going to end up in a serious museum or artistic study.   Master Race, on the other hand, is truly fine art.  

So here's my prediction:  I predict Master Race to break $450K at least, and the sky is the limit.  I would not be shocked at all to see it beat the Hulk 180 page. 

 

[chromium]

58 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Master Race is already at $156K, and the big bidders likely have not bid yet.  There are a large number of registered phone bidders. So what's the upper limit on such a piece?  I don't think it exists.  I can see savy collectors and cultural institutions driving the bidding in the live auction to multiples of the $156K it sits at now. Here's why:

Master Race is NOT a pop culture collectable like the vast majority of comic original art.  It is NOT a piece which is artistically devoid of merit and derives significance only because of a character appearance (I'm looking at you Hulk 180).  Master Race is culturally significant and influential FINE ART.  And for bidders on fine art, $150K to 250K is, frankly, chump change.  If, as I think is the case, Master Race attracts fine art bidders (probably institutions), then we could see the price driven up to shocking heights by an epic battle between cultural institutions and comic art collectors.

If any comic book story belongs in a serious museum, it is surely Master Race.  It is accurately referred to as the "Citizen Kane" of comic books.  It's artistic merit is seriously discussed in the serious press.  The first and last pages of that story are arguably the two most influential comic pages ever drawn.  They are a masterpiece of comic art.  In short, the significance, reputation and value for Master Race will likely only grow over time as its influence becomes more and more appreciated, whereas some of the other big ticket comic art faces the prospect of fading as the characters which drive the value of those pages lose popularity and significance.  Yes, people love Wolverine, but Herb Trimpe is no fine artist and one panel depicting a superhero who looks like a refugee from the musical Cats is never going to end up in a serious museum or artistic study.   Master Race, on the other hand, is truly fine art.  

So here's my prediction:  I predict Master Race to break $450K at least, and the sky is the limit.  I would not be shocked at all to see it beat the Hulk 180 page. 

 

So you're saying it's cool art ?

[Mmehdy]

On November 6, 2018 at 10:27 AM, Bronty said:

Can you Mitch, or anyone ,speak to stamp values?   I'm quite interested in the values today vs that 40 years ago number as I was generally aware of a deflation there but have no specific knowledge of it - would be interested to hear more. 

the upper most valuable stamps have retained value, similar to what comic books will go thru..Action 1 will always be valuable. However, the decrease in NEW COLLECTORS...people that are buying stamps for that purpose has died off and as comic book distribution lessens and less people buy the hard copy...that diease will effect our great community. Time passes on, like the dime novels where there were acutally conventions and pulp mags whose value has gone nowhere the last 10 years. The real issue is when and will the price  decrease be  slight or sharp. I think it will depend on what you retain in your collection, Action 1 will decrease the least amount, the fools that are paying 10X guide for a 9.8 as opposed to a 9.4 which in my book is a slight appearance difference will take the hit the hardest. This is a time to be CAREFUL in what you buy, ahead of what the experts are calling another recession in 2020.....dont over pay is the key  especially on a over hyped book. That  applies to GA,SA and OA. The golden rule is , if it goes down to 0 value who cares..you just want the book no matter what.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Mmehdy

[bluechip]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

Master Race is already at $156K, and the big bidders likely have not bid yet.  There are a large number of registered phone bidders. So what's the upper limit on such a piece?  I don't think it exists.  I can see savy collectors and cultural institutions driving the bidding in the live auction to multiples of the $156K it sits at now. Here's why:

Master Race is NOT a pop culture collectable like the vast majority of comic original art.  It is NOT a piece which is artistically devoid of merit and derives significance only because of a character appearance (I'm looking at you Hulk 180).  Master Race is culturally significant and influential FINE ART.  And for bidders on fine art, $150K to 250K is, frankly, chump change.  If, as I think is the case, Master Race attracts fine art bidders (probably institutions), then we could see the price driven up to shocking heights by an epic battle between cultural institutions and comic art collectors.

If any comic book story belongs in a serious museum, it is surely Master Race.  It is accurately referred to as the "Citizen Kane" of comic books.  It's artistic merit is seriously discussed in the serious press.  The first and last pages of that story are arguably the two most influential comic pages ever drawn.  They are a masterpiece of comic art.  In short, the significance, reputation and value for Master Race will likely only grow over time as its influence becomes more and more appreciated, whereas some of the other big ticket comic art faces the prospect of fading as the characters which drive the value of those pages lose popularity and significance.  Yes, people love Wolverine, but Herb Trimpe is no fine artist and one panel depicting a superhero who looks like a refugee from the musical Cats is never going to end up in a serious museum or artistic study.   Master Race, on the other hand, is truly fine art.  

So here's my prediction:  I predict Master Race to break $450K at least, and the sky is the limit.  I would not be shocked at all to see it beat the Hulk 180 page. 

 

Before this thread I had never heard of "Master Race"

[sfcityduck]

40 minutes ago, chromium said:

So you're saying it's cool art ?

John Byrne X-Men page is "cool art."  

Master Race is "fine art" which is influential, historically important, and will stand the test of the time as a result.

[bluechip]

Okay, I just looked up "Master Race" and it's an EC story which I have read, at some point.  A good story.  I am not sure I would have gone on about its significance the way sfduck did, that said, I appreciate it when people point out that a book's story and art were well- crafted and significant in ways that go beyond the comic book and comic art metrics that have sometimes befuddled me in the past. 

(This may be hard for newer collectors to believe, but, I remember when when you would be very hard-pressed to find a person who agreed if you said you thought that Superman 17 was somehow a bigger or more important book than Superman 15.  Many would look at you like you were nuts,because they knew, absolutely knew, that books were valued based only on Title (more famous the better), issue number (lower the better) and condition.  The only acceptable qualifiers would be change in artist or a popular character.   No discussion of story or how a comic may or may not have captured the 'zeitgeist" of the times was to be considered)

So, considering all the above, I will not dispute anyone who wants to say "Master Race" is important and desirable, valuable, significant, all that.   

 

[sfcityduck]

1 minute ago, bluechip said:

Before this thread I had never heard of "Master Race"

That's pretty amazing.  I take it you don't like EC?

Fantagraphics' EC Library includes the volume "Master Race and Other Stories."

The story is also featured in various compilations such as the "Smithsonian Book of Comic Book Comics" and "We Spoke Out: Comics and the Holocaust", as well as other Krigstein specific volumes like "B. Krigstein v. 1" and "Messages in a Bottle: The Comics of B. Krigstein" by Fantagraphics.  

The story has been widely discussed in various fan publications (Squa Tront, Comics Journal, etc.) and in the serious press (New Yorker, Forbes, NYT, etc.), and Frank Miller, Art Spiegelman, and a number of other prominent arts have acknowledged their debt to Krigstein.  Admittedly, it sure would have helped if you were collecting when Miller began his DD run, because that was a time when Krigstein was discussed quite a bit.

[ESeffinga]

My only quibble is that only time will tell if the piece is ever hung and treated as “fine art”.

The piece is already without a doubt historically important to both the medium, and its proponents and American cultural history.

I could see the piece in an exhibit in the Smithsonian American History Museum, but not in the National Gallery of Art or the Hirshorn for instance. That would be “fine art”. And while MOMA may be willing to do a special exhibition with such a piece, it may be years if ever to part of such a permanent exhibition or collection in a proper “fine art” gallery.

I think it’s an important distinction, and the closest chance it would have to being in a permanent collection short term would be in the Lucas Museum, or in the American History Museum alongside the Muppets, Star Wars, and other relics/touchstones of pop culture and illustration. Or perhaps eventually donated to the Archives with AF15?

my .02

Edited November 7, 2018 by ESeffinga

[delekkerste]

11 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

I think it’s an important distinction, and the closest chance it would have to being in a permanent collection short term would be in the Lucas Museum,

Pretty much everyone I talk to thinks this is going to be a two-horse race between Jim H. and the Lucas Museum.  We'll see if it works out that way or not. 

[sfcityduck]

25 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

the closest chance it would have to being in a permanent collection short term would be in the Lucas Museum, or in the American History Museum alongside the Muppets, Star Wars, and other relics/touchstones of pop culture and illustration. Or perhaps eventually donated to the Archives with AF15?

my .02

Master Race is not a touchstone of pop culture.  So I don't think it will ever be displayed at a history museum next to the Muppets.

If it goes to a history museum, it would be the Holocaust Museum (DC) or the Contemporary Jewish Museum (SF) or some other institution focused on the holocaust or Jewish history.  But, I don't view that as likely.  

The Library of Congress might be interested in it, but I don't think they are spending much on acquisitions.  So I think the likeliest bidders are institutions focusing on American art that are expanding their collections in to areas beyond the limited universe of artists favored by the rich fine art establishment.  The Whitney Museum of American Art would be a natural for this piece.  It collects pieces on paper and displays them in groups (we're talking about an eight frame group here). The Lucas would also be a natural contender because Lucas is trying to expand the notion of what "fine art" is.  

Edited November 7, 2018 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

14 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Pretty much everyone I talk to thinks this is going to be a two-horse race between Jim H. and the Lucas Museum.  We'll see if it works out that way or not. 

I think they'll be two of the bidders.  But, I'm sure there will be others.  There are other EC art collectors out there.  There are other institutions.  There are rich Jewish comic collectors who might view this piece as personally significant.  There are industry guys with money like Miller who might want it.  How this plays out will be very interesting to see.  

[delekkerste]

3 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

I think they'll be two of the bidders.  But, I'm sure there will be others.  There are other EC art collectors out there.  There are other institutions.  There are rich Jewish comic collectors who might view this piece as personally significant.  There are industry guys with money like Miller who might want it.  How this plays out will be very interesting to see.  

As one veteran collector said:  none of the known, serious EC art collectors have the money for something like this, besides Jim H. 

Institutional interest is always overestimated for comic art.  Just because it gets written up in the NY Times doesn't mean that anyone on an acquisitions committee of a serious museum is going to somehow be convinced to buy it.  I was on an acquisitions committee at a major NYC museum for a number of years.  This kind of stuff isn't even on their radar.  Eric is right - the Lucas Museum is by far the best bet as far as institutions go.  The other institutions aren't likely to put up their own money for it - it would have to be bought by a collector and eventually donated. 

I'll bet the don't pass line on Miller or any industry folk/random celebrities that are always mooted and never end up with any of the art. 

[bluechip]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

That's pretty amazing.  I take it you don't like EC?

Fantagraphics' EC Library includes the volume "Master Race and Other Stories."

The story is also featured in various compilations such as the "Smithsonian Book of Comic Book Comics" and "We Spoke Out: Comics and the Holocaust", as well as other Krigstein specific volumes like "B. Krigstein v. 1" and "Messages in a Bottle: The Comics of B. Krigstein" by Fantagraphics.  

The story has been widely discussed in various fan publications (Squa Tront, Comics Journal, etc.) and in the serious press (New Yorker, Forbes, NYT, etc.), and Frank Miller, Art Spiegelman, and a number of other prominent arts have acknowledged their debt to Krigstein.  Admittedly, it sure would have helped if you were collecting when Miller began his DD run, because that was a time when Krigstein was discussed quite a bit.

Followed up the first post with a yes, I read it years ago.  I thought it was a great story at the time but somehow missed all the later hooplah about how it influenced other artists, et.  But I have, periodically, noticed when movies and episodes of TV shows periodically pirated the EC story's big twist.   There was another one filmed again recently with Christopher Plummer.

 

[Will_K]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

Pretty much everyone I talk to thinks this is going to be a two-horse race between Jim H. and the Lucas Museum

So I guess that means "we" know the consignor is neither of those ?  Not that either of them would be expected to be in the selling mood.  Do people generally know the identity of the consignor ?

I don't play at that end of that pool... or even know where it's located. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Will_K

[vodou]

58 minutes ago, bluechip said:

There was another one filmed again recently with Christopher Plummer.

Good film but a predictable ending. At least to me, reading twist endings for 37 years

[sfcityduck]

36 minutes ago, Will_K said:

Do people generally know the identity of the consignor ?

 

Russ Cochran brokered a deal from Gaines to Mitch Mehdy, who sold to the Donnelly brothers, who have now put it up on Heritage.

[vodou]

37 minutes ago, Will_K said:

So I guess that means "we" know the consignor is neither of those ?  Not that either of them would be expected to be in the selling mood.  Do people generally know the identity of the consignor ?

I don't play at that end of that pool... or even know where it's located. 

Donnelly's, they've had it forever and it's been on CAF and their site forever. Only because nearly all EC art is immaculate can we trust those paste-ups to be...vintage

[pemart1966]

10 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

the upper most valuable stamps have retained value, similar to what comic books will go thru..Action 1 will always be valuable. However, the decrease in NEW COLLECTORS...people that are buying stamps for that purpose has died off and as comic book distribution lessens and less people buy the hard copy...that diease will effect our great community. Time passes on, like the dime novels where there were acutally conventions and pulp mags whose value has gone nowhere the last 10 years. The real issue is when and will the price  decrease be  slight or sharp. I think it will depend on what you retain in your collection, Action 1 will decrease the least amount, the fools that are paying 10X guide for a 9.8 as opposed to a 9.4 which in my book is a slight appearance difference will take the hit the hardest. This is a time to be CAREFUL in what you buy, ahead of what the experts are calling another recession in 2020.....dont over pay is the key  especially on a over hyped book. That  applies to GA,SA and OA. The golden rule is , if it goes down to 0 value who cares..you just want the book no matter what.

I think that this hobby (art/comics) is heading for a massive correction probably sooner than later.  Stratospheric prices; a hobby that's NEVER really experienced a significant downturn or correction.  Let's think about this:

1.  How long it takes you to earn say $5K; $10K; $20K and up AFTER TAX dollars to buy a rare comic or piece of art?

2.  A decrease in the number of new collectors.

3.  Old time collectors that don't/can't collect any more because it's gotten to expensive or they have everything they want and don't actively collect anymore.

4.  Speculators that are currently fueling prices to some extent and that will probably run for the door as soon as the next economic downturn occurs.

5.  Old time collectors that are still active but will be looking to cash out sometime soon as they are now entering their late 50s - early 60s.  We've already had several large cash outs in the hobby and that's just the tip of the iceberg.  We will all cash out.  Either you cash out while you're living or when you die.  You don't take it with you.

There's a perfect storm brewing here for a massive correction.  Not everything will suffer to the same extent because the cream always rises to the top but there will be blood.

Mitch makes some good points.  The "good times" don't last forever - any where.  

There will be people left holding the bag when it gets ugly...and it will get ugly...

Edited November 8, 2018 by pemart1966