see pic - could CGC have possibly given this a 9.6?? 0

[Bomber-Bob]

On 9/15/2018 at 10:32 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Sure. Doesn't look like anything out of the ordinary for a 9.6, provided the rest of the book is as sharp as those edges.

A 9.6 virtually perfect...? No. Not even close.

 

Threads/examples like this make me lean toward agreeing with your viewpoint on establishing a 9.5, 9.7 tweener grades. While CGC does not do comparison grading, most of us do. We compare books like this to others to 'logically' arrive at a grade. Maybe I have a 9.6 that looks near flawless with just the tiniest flaw, so how can this be a 9.6 with such a blatant flaw ? Or I have a similar corner issue and got a 9.0, thus feeling cheated and amazed this book got a 9.6 . From my own personal experience, I do not like this as a 9.6 but I understand the argument that it's okay as a 9.6 . 

[RockMyAmadeus]

32 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

On 9/15/2018 at 8:32 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Sure. Doesn't look like anything out of the ordinary for a 9.6, provided the rest of the book is as sharp as those edges.

A 9.6 virtually perfect...? No. Not even close.

 

Threads/examples like this make me lean toward agreeing with your viewpoint on establishing a 9.5, 9.7 tweener grades. While CGC does not do comparison grading, most of us do. We compare books like this to others to 'logically' arrive at a grade. Maybe I have a 9.6 that looks near flawless with just the tiniest flaw, so how can this be a 9.6 with such a blatant flaw ? Or I have a similar corner issue and got a 9.0, thus feeling cheated and amazed this book got a 9.6 . From my own personal experience, I do not like this as a 9.6 but I understand the argument that it's okay as a 9.6 . 

These are great points, Bob. And I want to stress to all (as I often have in the past) that your grade isn't incorrect. Neither is mine, or anyone else's, because grading is subjective. 

If you see it as a 9.4...or even a case for a 9.2...your grade is just as valid as anyone else's. Nobody is wrong, here, provided A. the people giving opinions are qualified to do so (and I think you're more than qualified, as are the other people in this thread, and I hope the feeling is reciprocal), B. the people offering opinions don't have a direct vested interest one way or the other (which can, admittedly, sometimes be difficult to suss out) and C. the people offering opinions can provide a reasonable justification for their view, as most everyone here has.

The fact that we're quibbling between 9.4 and 9.6...or even 9.2...proves that the system works. It's not "well, I think it's a 7.5, and you're clearly smoking crack if you think it's a 9.6...it's got a 2 inch color breaking crease!"

You're completely correct: all of us who have experience with more than a handful of slabs compare grades automatically. "How did this get a 9.8, and this is only a 9.4??" I've mentioned in the past that I subbed a Wolvie Litd Series #1 at WWLA onsite (sigh!) in 2008...it got a 9.4. There's no reason it shouldn't have been a 9.8, and, as I chronicled on the boards, I cracked it, did nothing to it, and resubbed it under a 9.8 pre-screen....it got the 9.8 it should have been all along. Something tweaked the grader who saw that book, and to this day, I don't know what it was...but I sent it back through, and the multiple people (pre-screeners and graders) who saw the book agreed with my ultimate assessment.

So, while CGC can't do comparative grading, it would behoove them to take a moment every few months or so and do a "quality check", to make sure they're being consistent, and not subject to "standards drift" (which happens to EVERYONE over time!) Examining 20 or 30 books in each grade, with their notes, wouldn't hurt them. In fact, management should be sending through "quality control" invoices at random intervals, "secret shopper" style, and comparing those to previous control invoices to ensure quality control in grading, if they're not doing so already. "This is what a 9.6 looked like in Feb of 2018....and this is what one looks like now. Are we consistent? Why/why not?"

And while the "tweener" grades won't ever solve the problem of grade disagreement..."I think it's a 9.4, not a 9.5!"...it WILL smooth out the market quite a bit, and make the buying public feel more secure about grading differences.

 

[faster friends]

4 hours ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Did you buy them ?

No Sir. Most of the graded books I have/had I subbed myself.

[Bomber-Bob]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

These are great points, Bob. And I want to stress to all (as I often have in the past) that your grade isn't incorrect. Neither is mine, or anyone else's, because grading is subjective. 

If you see it as a 9.4...or even a case for a 9.2...your grade is just as valid as anyone else's. Nobody is wrong, here, provided A. the people giving opinions are qualified to do so (and I think you're more than qualified, as are the other people in this thread, and I hope the feeling is reciprocal), B. the people offering opinions don't have a direct vested interest one way or the other (which can, admittedly, sometimes be difficult to suss out) and C. the people offering opinions can provide a reasonable justification for their view, as most everyone here has.

The fact that we're quibbling between 9.4 and 9.6...or even 9.2...proves that the system works. It's not "well, I think it's a 7.5, and you're clearly smoking crack if you think it's a 9.6...it's got a 2 inch color breaking crease!"

You're completely correct: all of us who have experience with more than a handful of slabs compare grades automatically. "How did this get a 9.8, and this is only a 9.4??" I've mentioned in the past that I subbed a Wolvie Litd Series #1 at WWLA onsite (sigh!) in 2008...it got a 9.4. There's no reason it shouldn't have been a 9.8, and, as I chronicled on the boards, I cracked it, did nothing to it, and resubbed it under a 9.8 pre-screen....it got the 9.8 it should have been all along. Something tweaked the grader who saw that book, and to this day, I don't know what it was...but I sent it back through, and the multiple people (pre-screeners and graders) who saw the book agreed with my ultimate assessment.

So, while CGC can't do comparative grading, it would behoove them to take a moment every few months or so and do a "quality check", to make sure they're being consistent, and not subject to "standards drift" (which happens to EVERYONE over time!) Examining 20 or 30 books in each grade, with their notes, wouldn't hurt them. In fact, management should be sending through "quality control" invoices at random intervals, "secret shopper" style, and comparing those to previous control invoices to ensure quality control in grading, if they're not doing so already. "This is what a 9.6 looked like in Feb of 2018....and this is what one looks like now. Are we consistent? Why/why not?"

And while the "tweener" grades won't ever solve the problem of grade disagreement..."I think it's a 9.4, not a 9.5!"...it WILL smooth out the market quite a bit, and make the buying public feel more secure about grading differences.

 

Very good points. I really like the idea of an inhouse quality check on their grading. While I agree with your comments about the system working and most are generally in the same ballpark for grade, we both know the problem is the premium the marketplace puts on these differences. I absolutely hate stories like your Wolvie #1 experience. 

[smileLP]

OP here

a few points:

1) i'd be surprised if CGC didn't already have some kind of formal spot-checking/inhouse quality control system in place.  i doubt they train their graders and then just cut them loose w/o any further review.  it's possible, but it's hard to imagine any successful company not already having a review program

2) rockmy...., your info on what this has sold for recently appears to be wrong.  the 2 most recent copies of cgc 9.6 on ebay were both right around $3K; mine is certainly not 50% more than that.  also, when i said "i priced mine at a high/9.6 price," i didn't mean "high 9.6," (high for a 9.6), i meant a high price.... a 9.6 price!   heck, even though i disagree w/it, cgc gave it a 9.6, so that's what i'm selling it as.  anyone who wants to return it cuz they have higher grading standards than cgc (who i personally think overgraded this book) is welcome to return it.  also, i priced mine a little high cuz there were no other 9.6's on ebay at the time i put it up there.  so they can buy mine, a little pricey, or consider lower grades or higher (9.8?), if they exist.  lastly, as a 10-yr ebay seller, i have evolved what i think is a good pricing strategy:  start very high, and lower it each month.  you might get an impulse buy at the very high price, but on avg., it sells for less, i.e. what the market will price it at

3) in conclusion, i'm an old-school comic guy who went w/the changes as they came down the pike.  ok, no such thing as mint, NM highest, etc., but then, ok, something called NM+, etc, etc....  all i have is my common sense to guide me, and that reasoning ability suggests that if 10 is perfect, then 9.8 should be virtually perfect, maybe 1 tiny, half thing somewhere, and 9.6 maybe a tiny thing somewhere.  that's me, that's my logical mind.  setting aside cgc for a moment, as an ebay comic seller (w/100% feedback; my grading has been described as spot-on), when i look at high grade books, i know something amazing gets 9.4, virtually no flaws, and something w/a little flaw or two (frankly, like this TOD 10) will get a 9.2.  i suspecdt that under cgc's microscopes and bright lights, most items i might consider higher than 9.4 would probably not earn a higher grade.  maybe they would.  as we've all said, it's subjective... 9.6 vs. 9.8.... etc.....   

but i know what a 9.2 is, or thought i did.  same for 9.4.  this book, to my thinking, has too big a problem in that one corner, to say nothing of a couple other little things, to earn a 9.6.  in my opinion, cgc overgraded it, based on my knowledge, experience and powers of reason as explained

 

thanks y'all for the input and the help, and your opinions are always of interest to me!

[theCapraAegagrus]

Idk. If 9.8 is as close to Mint as you can get without actually being Mint, then a comic this nice with 1 noticeable flaw is a 9.6 to me.

[RockMyAmadeus]

29 minutes ago, smileLP said:

2) rockmy...., your info on what this has sold for recently appears to be wrong.  the 2 most recent copies of cgc 9.6 on ebay were both right around $3K; mine is certainly not 50% more than that.  

Here is GPA for TOD #10 at 9.6. Highest price ever recorded for a Universal 9.6 is $2700. The two sales before that were $2500 and $2650.

Here is your listing, no? Priced at $4,000. $4000-$2700 = $1300. $1300/$2700 = 48.14%, or close enough to 50% for the sake of the argument.

Your book is therefore listed at 50% higher than it is ever sold for in that grade.

Again: your book, your price. No one disputes that. But...if you think this book is overgraded as a 9.6, it seems odd to not only price it at "9.6 price" (which it is not), but 50% higher than the highest recorded sale for that grade, ever.

No...?

Let's be completely frank, here: you didn't start this thread because you were undecided and wanted to hear other views...you started it so that you would get agreement with your position. There's nothing wrong with seeking agreement, but if you're just looking to get agreement, you should state that upfront, so people don't waste time trying to state their positions if you're not open to considering them. 

Not meaning to bust your testes unnecessarily, here.

40 minutes ago, smileLP said:

1) i'd be surprised if CGC didn't already have some kind of formal spot-checking/inhouse quality control system in place.  i doubt they train their graders and then just cut them loose w/o any further review.  it's possible, but it's hard to imagine any successful company not already having a review program

I have spent tens of thousands of dollars with CGC, over a decade+ (meaning, I've put my money where my mouth is.) I believe in CGC's mission, and in the principle of third party grading. I support CGC as "the only legitimate resource" for third party grading. That all said, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if CGC didn't have some inhouse quality control in this regard. I didn't remotely suggest that they "train their graders and then cut them loose w/o any further review." I suggested a VERY SPECIFIC program that is almost certainly not in place at the moment. As CGC is a functional monopoly, there are many things it doesn't have to do, because they don't need to to compete.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

By the way...the OTHER 9.6 that is for sale, that is priced at $5,000...again, anyone can ask any price they want. But that seller says "looks like a 9.8!"

If you want to get a 9.8 price for it, you have to convince CGC to put it in a 9.8 slab. 

I have lots of books that "look like 9.8!" that aren't anywhere near 9.8.

I understand completely: people don't pay for my opinion...at least not on eBay. That's why, if I want $500 for a 9.8 New Mutants, I have to slab it and have it grade 9.8. 

But...that all said...there HAS been a significant shift in the last ten years towards buyers being willing to take much bigger risks, especially with sellers they trust. In 2004, if you were selling an X-Men #108 that you graded "9.8!" or "mint!", you'd be very lucky to get $50 for it. But put it in a slab, and now it's worth $700-$1400. Someone got $1400 for one.

Now, that same copy, in a 9.8 slab, is worth about $500...but there are a lot more people willing to pay a much closer price....say $100, or even $150...for one described as "mint!" or "NM/M" 

I wouldn't hesitate to pay $150 for a "NM/M" Lange's Sports copy. 

[smileLP]

rockmy, i didn't use those stats when making my statement or price.  i simply looked at the last 2 that sold on ebay, and noted there were currently no other 9.6's.  that's how i do all my pricing; maybe my smaller sample is a more "current" valuation

as for only wanting agreement, yes i admit it might be partly true, only because what i wanted agreement for was that i didn't think this was a 9.6, and when cgc does stupid things it annoys me.  i was pleasantly surprised that half the comments said it looked 9.6 to them.  i wasn't expecting that.  i found other comments very int'ing also.  but essentially, i have to disagree w/your comment about just wanting agreement.  as for my price being high, hey, w/cgc giving it a 9.6, and half of y'all saying "looks 9.6 to me," who cares what i think?  i don't expect it to sell for my asking price, but like i said, i lower the price over time.  if someone buying it has a problem, return or partial refund. i'm agreeable that way and have the 99.99% feedback to prove it

two-piece, thanks for the input; i guess what i'm saying is this flaw looks too big/obvious/noticeable, to drop it from 9.8 near perfect to 9.6 close-to.  like i said, if i was grading this raw, 9.2 would be my grade.  maybe i would be a little greedy and put 9.2/9.4.  how did cgc miss by so much??  that's what made me post my query in the first place.  i took the powers that be at their word that NM is best condition possible (9.4), so if something is higher, it better be flawless and glowing.  but over time, the powers that be have chipped away at that simple, and logical, notion

rockmy, i have a similar take on the acceptance of raw books and higher prices.  in fact, i find cgc such a pain to send in and then be disappointed w/the grade (not to mention the time & expense) that 99% of the time i take a possibly cgc-worthy book, figure out what it would sell for as cgc, make it just a little lower, and usually it sells at that price!  sometimes i even get what would've been my cgc price!  i have an FF4 for sale now that is so beautiful that i didn't want cgc giving it a FN+ cuz of some marvel chipping, right edge, so i'm selling it raw and calling it VF/VF- or VF- minimum.  subjective?  yes, but this book is a gem and to assign it anything starting w/"FN.." would be a real disservice.

i sell raw at high prices, and it helps that my grading feedback is beyond glowing, etc., and i do have lots of loyal/repeat customers.  i only use cgc very sparingly cuz i, as a rule, i can get near-cgc prices w/o the hassle.  also, i value my time and if i make a little less, eh, so be it.....  some sellers need to wring every penny they can, but that's not me.  i'm payin' the bills...  ; )

thanks again to all for your comments!

[The Lions Den]

A couple of random observations here, if I may...

While CGC may not have rigid guidelines to help graders check their grading skills, they do have a process in place should one of the graders be what is deemed "off." This would involve sitting directly next to a finalizer (usually each finalizer has at least one designated pre-grader) and going through a typical 20 book invoice, comparing the grade the pre-grader(s) gave the books and then reviewing the notes to see why the finalizer arrived at the grade they did. This is typically done with new graders, but it's also done periodically to ensure that the grading process remains as consistent as possible. It may be surprising to some folks, but from what I recall, these kinds of measures have been in place since the beginning.

With that said, there are times where the graders just disagree, and sometimes a book like the TOD #10 shown here will go out the door at a higher grade than some folks may be comfortable with. After closely examining this copy, I would have been at 9.4 because of the color loss at the top of the spine, which to me is more noticeable than a light corner bend that doesn't break color. But that's just like, my opinion, man...  

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, smileLP said:

 i simply looked at the last 2 that sold on ebay,

Those are the ones recorded on GPA that I linked; the Aug 15 sale at $2700 (record price) and the Jul 23 sale at $2500.

[smileLP]

ah, ok, on ebay i didn't know the final price, so i approximated, apparently too high.  cuz the final price was not revealed (price had a slash through it meaning best offer accepted).  thast's bigger drop from asking to accepted than typical.  thnx

fyi, i decided to lower my initial asking price by $600, partly due to your input/help, so thnx

Edited September 18, 2018 by smileLP
forgot something

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

It may be surprising to some folks, but from what I recall, these kinds of measures have been in place since the beginning.

Not surprising to me, and I'm not casting aspersions on CGC. Again, I'm talking about a specific program that I doubt is in place, and which you seem to have confirmed is not in place, but would be useful, precisely BECAUSE it is a way to control "standards drift", which happens with everyone, even finalizers. It has nothing to do with sitting with finalizers and reviewing individual books, because, while that helps to conform individual graders with and to each other, it does nothing to address institutional drift.

...which means there's a hole in the process that could be addressed. And institutional drift (which is very real, and very observable...see the "2011 loose grading period") CAN be addressed by comparative anaylsis, every few months, as Bomber-Bob described above. "How do these recently graded X.Xs compare with the same grades we gave 6 months ago? A year ago? Two years ago? Five years ago?"

"Secret shopper", in one form or another, is used in many other industries, and would be useful at CGC, too. 

1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

I would have been at 9.4 because of the color loss at the top of the spine, which to me is more noticeable than a light corner bend that doesn't break color. But that's just like, my opinion, man...  

..and that's the beauty of the subjective art of grading: you're not wrong. Neither is anyone else with the qualifications I noted above.

 

[sfcityduck]

One observation, I agree with most of what RMA says about grading having a subjective element.  However, the most important aspect of grading is the consistency of the grader.  It doesn't matter if a particular dealer always views the books he sells as a notch better than I think they are, so long as he is consistent.  If he's consistent, then I can adjust my view of his books accordingly.  Where you lose me is when the grading is all over the map.  

And, obviously, for a grading company, consistency is far more important than for a dealer.  

Which is why I think that adding more grading intervals is a really terrible idea.  Doing so implies that there are finer gradations of grading than those that already exist which can be applied consistently.  I really doubt that.  Doubling the intervals between 9.0 to 10.0 doubles the number of subjective calls, and inevitably will decrease consistency.  Grading is not a science now - as evidenced by the lack of wholly objective grading criteria for the current scale - and will be less of a science with twice as many grading intervals.  

Absent true comparison grading, with CGC grading each book in comparison to pictures and notes it made of all graded issues, a finer grading scale is more trouble than benefit.

The only winner would be the grading company as increasing the intervals would lead to a bunch of re-submissions of already graded books, with all the resulting chaos in the Census, flipping mania, and ultimately lost credibility for the hobby that would entail.  

Edited September 18, 2018 by sfcityduck

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, smileLP said:

ah, ok, on ebay i didn't know the final price, so i approximated, apparently too high.  cuz the final price was not revealed (price had a slash through it meaning best offer accepted).  thast's bigger drop from asking to accepted than typical.  thnx

No problem. I don't like the way eBay does that these days, either. You said you don't deal with CGC on a regular basis, so getting a subscription to GPA wouldn't make much sense for you, BUT...George, the owner of GPA, has said many times that the occasional GPA request is perfectly acceptable and encouraged, so if you deal with this in the future, I'm sure you'd be welcome to ask for those recorded sales prices.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

One observation, I agree with most of what RMA says about grading having a subjective element.  However, the most important aspect of grading is the consistency of the grader.  It doesn't matter if a particular dealer always views the books he sells as a notch better than I think they are, so long as he is consistent.  If he's consistent, then I can adjust my view of his books accordingly.  Where you lose me is when the grading is all over the map.  

And, obviously, for a grading company, consistency is far more important than for a dealer.  

Which is why I think that adding more grading intervals is a really terrible idea.  Doing so implies that there are finer gradations of grading than those that already exist which can be applied consistently.  I really doubt that.  Doubling the intervals between 9.0 to 10.0 doubles the number of subjective calls, and inevitably will decrease consistency.  Grading is not a science now - as evidenced by the lack of wholly objective grading criteria for the current scale - and will be less of a science with twice as many grading intervals.  

Absent true comparison grading, with CGC grading each book in comparison to pictures and notes it made of all graded issues, a finer grading scale is more trouble than benefit.

The only winner would be the grading company as increasing the intervals would lead to a bunch of re-submissions of already graded books, with all the resulting chaos in the Census, flipping mania, and ultimately lost credibility for the hobby that would entail.  

Disagree with you completely, totally, and entirely, for reasons already stated, here and in other threads. Could not possibly disagree with you more strenuously.

My evidence? The coin hobby didn't collapse into chaos when the "tween" grades were added. In fact, it made things more consistent, and substantially "smoothed out" the market, which would be its greatest contribution. None of the "chaos" you describe happened. And there were people in coins voicing the exact same concerns.

Borock has stated, on many occasions, that he couldn't decide if a book was a 9.6 or a 9.8, and he wished that there was a 9.7 grade he could give. My question to him was "and...? Why couldn't you?" 

That question still stands. 

[Bomber-Bob]

1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

A couple of random observations here, if I may...

While CGC may not have rigid guidelines to help graders check their grading skills, they do have a process in place should one of the graders be what is deemed "off." This would involve sitting directly next to a finalizer (usually each finalizer has at least one designated pre-grader) and going through a typical 20 book invoice, comparing the grade the pre-grader(s) gave the books and then reviewing the notes to see why the finalizer arrived at the grade they did. This is typically done with new graders, but it's also done periodically to ensure that the grading process remains as consistent as possible. It may be surprising to some folks, but from what I recall, these kinds of measures have been in place since the beginning.

With that said, there are times where the graders just disagree, and sometimes a book like the TOD #10 shown here will go out the door at a higher grade than some folks may be comfortable with. After closely examining this copy, I would have been at 9.4 because of the color loss at the top of the spine, which to me is more noticeable than a light corner bend that doesn't break color. But that's just like, my opinion, man...  

Lion, I may have asked this before, not sure. Are the graders aware when they assign a highest graded to a specific issue ? While I understand the graders cannot possibly do comparison grading, I do think it would be the right thing to do when assigning a new highest graded. I remember when a Showcase 22 got a 9.2, single highest graded. It was highly manipulated, previously an 8.5, that I think, had a spine realignment. I remember feeling very disgusted with that. The highest graded means this is the best copy they have ever seen and the Showcase did not deserve it.    

[sfcityduck]

10 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

 The highest graded means this is the best copy they have ever seen and the Showcase did not deserve it.    

Respectfully disagree.  If that was the standard, there would only be one "highest graded" of any given issue.  The graders should give a book the grade it deserves, whether it is "highest graded" or not.

[sfcityduck]

46 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Borock has stated, on many occasions, that he couldn't decide if a book was a 9.6 or a 9.8, and he wished that there was a 9.7 grade he could give. My question to him was "and...? Why couldn't you?" 

That question still stands. 

Unless you provide an objective criteria to distinguish between 9.6, 9.7 and 9.8 that is more meaningful than the distinction between 9.6 and 9.8 you are just embarking on a slippery slope that ultimately leads to "ranking" of submissions not "grading" of them.  After all, to use your example, why couldn't you add a 9.65 grade?  Or how about 9.625 and 9.675?  Where do you draw the line?

I'm happy with where it is now.  The finer the distinctions become, the more subjective the decision becomes.

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, Bomber-Bob said:

Lion, I may have asked this before, not sure. Are the graders aware when they assign a highest graded to a specific issue ? While I understand the graders cannot possibly do comparison grading, I do think it would be the right thing to do when assigning a new highest graded. I remember when a Showcase 22 got a 9.2, single highest graded. It was highly manipulated, previously an 8.5, that I think, had a spine realignment. I remember feeling very disgusted with that. The highest graded means this is the best copy they have ever seen and the Showcase did not deserve it.    

I would hope this would happen, but I can't be 100% sure since I don't work there...